Let Me Know What You Think of This...

gitano · February 23, 2015, 10:28:14 PM

J0e_bl0ggs has been harassing me about 1) buying old "fence-posts", and 2) getting a .22 Hornet. The Hornet harassment started when I was trying to think a good thing to turn the Schuetzen into. So, never having owned a Hornet, I went looking for one just to see what I might be getting into.

YIKES! 19th century Winchesters and Stevens are cost SERIOUS money. Also, Hornet brass and ammo are - in my opinion - ridiculously priced. Brass at more than $1 a piece. Gimme a break!

Anyway, I was wandering around GunBroker when I saw this. Whaduyathink?

It's an Anschutz Model 54 action with Model 1432 'accouterments' - skip-line checkering, roll-over monte-carlo cheek-piece, white-line, etc.

The other ones on GB are going for $1100, $1800, and $1700, and none are a nice as this one. The seller has listed it for 72 days, and it's been on the 'auction block' for 19 days. He wants $1349 for it. What do you think?

Paul

branxhunter · February 24, 2015, 01:08:51 AM

Paul,

That is a very nice rifle. Great looking wood, the single trigger is excellent (no experience with the DSL models), beautiful slim graceful stock, and I would be very surprised if it wasn't insanely accurate.

You have already handled and shot a very similar rifle - my .222 when you visited a few years ago.

Prices for second hand mod54 Anschutz 22h and .222s usually top out at $AUS800 -1200, with the occasional one priced higher.

The receiver dovetails are quite narrow and rings will likely need some sort of recoil stop to stop them moving if bumped. The receiver is also drilled and tapped for mounts (I have weaver bases and rings on mine).

Marcus

branxhunter · February 24, 2015, 01:14:52 AM

An alternative??

http://usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=51700

I love everything about this except the long eye relief scope

Marcus

22hornet · February 24, 2015, 02:05:56 AM

An Annie Hornet?

That has really nice timber too. If you did get a Hornet what would you use it for? Hunting, shooting, collectors rifle?

$1 a piece for brass? As they say: "Tell him he's dreaming". My last lot of Winchester .22Hornet brass was $42/100 and I thought that was pricey!

22hornet · February 24, 2015, 02:07:53 AM

Quote from: branxhunter;137637An alternative??

http://usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=51700

I love everything about this except the long eye relief scope

Marcus

I'm liking the long eye relief scope on a martini more and more now. The last martini I shot was a real pain to load and remove the spend brass with the scope mounted so low. A long eye relief scope would easily solve that problem.

sakorick · February 24, 2015, 03:31:50 AM

The DST adds hundreds of dollars to that outstanding rifle. You did very well, Paul. A fantastic find for a fantastic price!

gitano · February 24, 2015, 07:18:30 AM

That is one beautiful Martini, Marcus! I kinda like LER 'scopes, but that is primarily on rifles chambered with cartridges that have greater recoil. I'm not too worried about the .22 Hornet's recoil.

I think I actually hit something with your rifle too, Marcus! That was sure a very special day.

You let the cat out of the bag, Rick. I was being coy, implying that I hadn't yet actually bought the rifle. But, now that I'm "outted", I will reveal the price. $1400 delivered to my door. I was quite smitten with the rifle when I first laid eyes on it. I am sure I have never paid that much for a rifle before. Only drillings. But... The fact that it's 1) an "old" 54 action with model 1430-34 accouterments, the really nice wood, in the chambering I was looking for, and at a price I think is at least $400 lower than similar rifles are going for, I simply couldn't pass it up. I have some 'splainin' to do to my wife.

God willin' and the creek don't rise, I'll get my hands on it at the end of next week.

Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 24, 2015, 07:20:41 AM

A 54 ain't never a mistake, I'm green with jealousy...

branxhunter · February 24, 2015, 11:17:15 AM

Great stuff Paul. That is my preferred stock shape on the Annie CF rifles.

I have a pdf copy of the manual for these rifles - I can send you a copy. It doesn't hold a lot of information but it is nice to have.

Depending on who you listen to there are a number of tricks that can lead to greater precision in hornet loads - use of a crimp die on loaded rounds, pistol primers, even necking cases up to 6mm and then down again to put a small "shoulder" on the neck. Lil gun sounds like the powder of choice in the US but very difficult/impossible to find here.

Short stubby .224 projectiles will also likely be what shoots best. If you can find some 40gn HPs as loaded in the old Winchester WMR rounds they are a good cheap alternative that can be surprisingly accurate out to 150yards.

Marcus

gitano · February 24, 2015, 11:37:48 AM

Great stuff, Marcus. I appreciate that!

Send the pdf right along, please.

I have heard that L'il Gun is "the" powder for the Hornet. I have some, so I'll probably start with that. I also noticed a lot of crimp dies for the Hornet. Now I see why. I was planning on 35-grainers I think. I have lots of .22 caliber bullets, so we'll see what I have in hand, but I think I have a few hundred that are less than 50.

I should be able to shoot this "in my back yard" without exciting the neighbors, so when I get it in hand, AND get some ammo, I'll post a 'range report'.

Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 24, 2015, 11:38:42 AM

Link to Anschutz, downloads has all the parts lists and manuals has...

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?menu=23&sprache=1

davidlt89 · February 24, 2015, 01:52:07 PM

I think it is a nice looking rifle!!! maybe a stupid question but why does it have a double trigger? The 22 hornet is an interesting caliber indeed!! i have a friend that has one and it is fun to shoot. A well placed shot will surely take a coyote down!!! Great fox gun!!! Congrats on your purchase!! God Bless.

sakorick · February 24, 2015, 02:18:56 PM

Quote from: davidlt89;137676I think it is a nice looking rifle!!! maybe a stupid question but why does it have a double trigger?

Oh you youngsters! David, it's not a "double" trigger it's a double "set" trigger. This gives the rifle another life.....one for competition and one for hunting. The set is the rear trigger and when engaged changes the front trigger to say 2 pounds(it's adjustable) for target competition. The rear trigger has nothing to go with letting the sear unleash the firing pin......it is used to change the pull weight of the front trigger. In a hunting situation you simply ignore the rear trigger and use the front like any other rifle. Keep in mind both triggers are adjustable and there are endless combinations to monkey with. The Germans perfected this system years ago. It never gained popularity in the Western hemisphere because of cost. The triggers on Paul's new Hornet are the absolute ultimate in classic perfection.

Jorge in Oz · February 24, 2015, 07:22:06 PM

Awesome rifle Paul.

gitano · February 24, 2015, 08:20:59 PM

Quote from: 22hornetIf you did get a Hornet what would you use it for? Hunting, shooting, collectors rifle?

"Yes"...

I wasn't really looking for a rifle, I was looking for .22 Hornet and .25-20 brass for the Schuetzen remake. Talk about crazy prices! Woo-eee! As YOU well know, this is about the the smallest .22 center-fire cartridge one can find. It will allow me to shoot in my "back yard" and not annoy the neighbors. It's also 'good' for wascally wabbits, br'er fox, Wyle E. Coyote, the Big Bad Wolf, AND sitting grouse and ptarmigan. And that is what I intend for it. I don't shoot competitively, and so I won't with this. It should already be worth more than I paid for it by maybe as much as 25%, so it is "collectible".

With your nom-de-plume, do you have any suggestions/recommendations?

Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 24, 2015, 11:24:32 PM

Quote from: sakorick;137681Oh you youngsters! David, it's not a "double" trigger it's a double "set" trigger. This gives the rifle another life.....one for competition and one for hunting. The set is the rear trigger and when engaged changes the front trigger to say 2 pounds(it's adjustable) for target competition. The rear trigger has nothing to go with letting the sear unleash the firing pin......it is used to change the pull weight of the front trigger. In a hunting situation you simply ignore the rear trigger and use the front like any other rifle. Keep in mind both triggers are adjustable and there are endless combinations to monkey with. The Germans perfected this system years ago. It never gained popularity in the Western hemisphere because of cost. The triggers on Paul's new Hornet are the absolute ultimate in classic perfection.

Some of us do actually use the 'set' in hunting, I personally use it if it is available.
Set trigger weight is usually a few ounces, My 22lr Anschutz has this trigger and I use it all the time. My Steyr, BSA and Sauer rifles have single set triggers again I will use them in a hunting situation.
Paul has acquired probably one of the finest set triggers ever made for his other 54 Anschutz, that one you push the front trigger forward to set, he also has a very collectable Karl Kenyon trigger for the 54.

Probably the finest set trigger ever made;

This is the type of trigger fitted to the Hornet (Mauser pattern) I'm sure I have photos of my Anschutz one at home and will post later.

...

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 24, 2015, 11:38:24 PM

Link for the Anschutz 5039 'international set trigger' parts list;

http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/downloads/FTPDirect/Ersatzteile/ET_5039_Abzuege_1975-01-01_DE.pdf?PHPSESSID=04937414b991320220cac8ce97b30c85

branxhunter · February 25, 2015, 02:38:18 AM

The trigger on my .222

So simple, and yet so beautiful, light and crisp

Marcus

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 25, 2015, 02:56:12 AM

What model is that rifle?

gitano · February 25, 2015, 06:58:33 AM

The "Teutons" do make good 'machines'.

The reason I have "Probably the finest set trigger ever made" is because j0e_bl0ggs gave me one! More on that when I get the OTHER Anschutz I recently acquired.

Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 25, 2015, 09:32:36 AM

Pictures;

54 Receiver with original trigger and set trigger 'kicker'.
Trigger guard original - pre '72 Right and post '72 Left;

Set trigger fitted to rifle;

Anschutz 1 piece scope mounts, if you look for the definition of 'rocking horse poo' in the dictionary it says see: Anschutz 1 piece scope mount.
Both are of EAW Apel manufacture as far as I am aware. (bottom set has my own 'nuts'). Both are windage adjustable on rear ring.

...

gitano · February 25, 2015, 10:50:11 AM

I reduced the image size on your trigger image, Marcus. It makes the thread a little easier to read. I assume you still have the full-sized image, and I saved a copy if you would prefer that the picture in the post be as it was originally. I don't like to step on anyone's toes about what's in their threads as long as it doesn't violate forum policy, but I didn't want to ask you to make the change when I could do it quickly. No sweat if you would like it returned to original. It certainly gave a close-up of the trigger.

Paul

branxhunter · February 25, 2015, 11:56:30 AM

No worries Paul.

It will be interesting to see if your magazine has the same follower as the 22h I had a look at:

http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16983&highlight=Anschutz

Joe, my rifle is a 1530-1532:

http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17130&highlight=Anschutz

I wondered why the dual model number - recently read that the first number (in this case 1530) is for the model with the base model stock, while the second number (in this case 1532) is the upgraded walnut stock.

Marcus

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 25, 2015, 12:03:13 PM

It too is a 54.

22hornet · February 25, 2015, 02:12:37 PM

One of the problems I have found with the Hornet is the lack of quality brass. Most often it is getting poorer and poorer.
He's my tips for trying to get it right. I should add a disclaimer here. The following is based purely on my experiences alone. Your experience in dealing with the Hornet may be different.

Little things can make big differences in this little case. I doubt you will ever get .223 type accuracy easily but some case prep goes a long way.

De-bur the primer pockets. You will probably find that the pocket is off centre too. Might just have to live with that.
I F/L size all the cases and trim the cases with a Lee trimmer. This makes all the cases uniform to start with and squares up the case mouth.
I neck size only after that.
I have heard that Lil Gun is the powder for the Hornet. Not having any available I can't comment further.
A small change in powder charge can make a big difference in accuracy. If you are getting "patterns" with a charge of say, 11.2gns of powder, a charge of 11.5gns may be enough to bring it all together. You really do need to experiment.
Shorter, blunt projectiles have worked better for me than pointy ones. Something around 40-45gns. I like the .22 Magnum projectiles I can buy in bulk. Speer's 33gn TNT is like a brick past 120 metres. Hornady's 35gn Vmax is good but very expensive here so I don't like to use them.
Seat the projectile out as far as you dare.
I don't crimp. I found it makes no difference.
I use small pistol primers. I found it does make a difference.
Don't try to make the Hornet into a .222 or .223. It won't work.

gitano · February 25, 2015, 03:19:31 PM

Great stuff, 22hornet! Thanks!

I've no interest in 'souping up' the Hornet. I have a .223. Or two.

Makes sense that the small case would be sensitive to small absolute changes in charge. Percentage-wise those would be 'big' changes.

QuoteOne of the problems I have found with the Hornet is the lack of quality brass.

One of the problems I have found is FINDING BRASS! Bertram stuff for $1.50 each and more. "Local" stuff, when available, for more than $1 each. That's not ammo, IT'S BRASS ONLY!

Sakorick said he'd spot me 50 cases 'til I can find some. j0e_bl0ggs can get it for 20 Pounds Sterling for 100, but shipping it here is exorbitant. Back up to $1 each with shipping.

I'm really looking forward to getting this rifle in my hands. I'm nervous that "something" will happen between southern Texas and Central Alaska. It's happened before!

Thanks for the info.
Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 25, 2015, 09:03:11 PM

If it transpires that a scope mount needs to take a 'trip' it will not be a stretch to bung in a bag of brass at the same time.

davidlt89 · February 26, 2015, 01:22:57 PM

QuoteOh you youngsters! David, it's not a "double" trigger it's a double "set" trigger

Thanks Rick, I did not know that existed!!!! learned something new! I wonder how "useful" it is? God Bless.

gitano · February 26, 2015, 06:09:30 PM

The Europeans and especially Germans have been "using" them for about 150 years, so I think they've passed the 'test of time' for usefulness.

I'm not too big a fan of them for hunting, but it depends on what one is hunting, and what circumstances. From a "hide", they are 'the bee's knees'.

Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 26, 2015, 09:08:44 PM

Quote from: gitano;137725The Europeans and especially Germans have been "using" them for about 150 years, so I think they've passed the 'test of time' for usefulness.

I'm not too big a fan of them for hunting, but it depends on what one is hunting, and what circumstances. From a "hide", they are 'the bee's knees'.

Paul

I use for any unhurried deliberate shot, not much use for a running target...

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 26, 2015, 11:29:41 PM

QuoteYou will probably find that the pocket is off centre too. Might just have to live with that

To quote Killary Klinton "What difference does it make?"
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22hornet · February 27, 2015, 02:00:58 AM

Quote from: j0e_bl0ggs;137729

To quote Killary Klinton "What difference does it make?"

Not much other than it is an example of poor workmanship and quality. It also makes it harder to de bur the inside of the cases.
I have PPU cases that are really cheap but they are also spot on in terms of quality. If I'm paying more,why can't I expect at least equal quality?

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 27, 2015, 02:43:10 AM

Poor workmanship and quality, how so?

drinksgin (deceased) · February 27, 2015, 07:12:57 AM

Paul, I took a look at Gunbroker, there are plenty of .22H, .32-20, .25-20 and .218 B cases ,most at .35c or so in larger lots,( 200-500 batches), some with free shipping.
I would prefer the cases based on the .32-20 as they are a bit larger and thicker than .22 H.
I have the RB #4 that I rechambered to .32-20, a nice little walking around gun.
No, contrary to what the "experts" on ASSRA all cried, I have not turned it into a grenade yet.

22hornet · February 27, 2015, 11:41:25 AM

Quote from: j0e_bl0ggs;137733Poor workmanship and quality, how so?

Hmm, I don't really know if I am being unreasonable or not.... however when I open a bag of brass I don't expect to have small pieces of swarf falling from the bag or hanging from the inside of the cases from where the primer holes have been punched out. Or even have the hole look like it was punched out by a blind man with a blunt rusty nail.
And not knowing too much about the tooling they employ to punch out the primer holes, but knowing full well that I can purchase other cartridge brass of the same brand that has the primer hole centred, punched clean and without the swarf.
So I would say that is poor workmanship and quality.

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · February 27, 2015, 12:15:44 PM

Wouldn't be a surprise to see swarf in the bag. Did you take a picture of this rusty nail hole?
It would not be a stretch to imagine the tooling being close to 'end of life' and it being swapped out after QC. Bugger all to do with poor workmanship and quality - tooling does wear out you know. What you probably have is the last acceptable product from that particular tool set IMHO.
I doubt that they would employ anyone let alone a blind man to punch the flash holes...

22hornet · February 27, 2015, 12:20:51 PM

Quote from: j0e_bl0ggs;137736I doubt that they would employ anyone let alone a blind man to punch the flash holes...

Yeah, probably not champ, probably not...

gitano · February 27, 2015, 03:49:23 PM

If I understood 22hornet correctly, what he was saying that the PPU brass was both inexpensive AND of better quality than the "expensive" stuff.

QuoteI have PPU cases that are really cheap but they are also spot on in terms of quality.

Which I read as "Inexpensive and good quality"

QuoteIf I'm paying more,why can't I expect at least equal quality?

Which I read as "expensive (relative to PPU) AND poor quality".

I find that neither difficult to believe nor incongruous statements.

paul