Reloading press

farmboy · December 17, 2015, 08:08:53 AM

I was wondering what kind of reloading presses that everyone was using. I have been thinking about getting another one. I have an rcbs 4x4 shell plates are getting hard to get up here plus they are getting really dear on the prices. Two things I like about it are there is an adjustable setting so that the primers are controlled depth setting. I like that I can put more than one die in it at a time. I never really use it as a progressive press . I resize and prime and fill the powder out of the press then put it back in the press to seat the bullets. I was first thinking about a ch H style press but after reading more it sounds like leverage is limited. I wondered about the heavy single stage they make as well it comes with a bushing but is large enough to size a 505 Gibbs. Likely I would never have anything that big but the capability is there. I wondered about a Redding turret press or there big single stage. Also thought about a ponsness Warren metallic press. Or the last thing was a Forrester single stage. What I want and what I would like. I want a press that will load the shells with the best accuracy that I can get. Cosentistic . I would prefer something a bit faster than a single stage.ight not be able to get that though. I want something made in north America or Europe. If it is not better than my old press I am not interested in wasting money. Although the shell plates issue. So ideas and experience s welcome. Thank you.

sakorick · December 17, 2015, 09:03:28 AM

Stick with your RCBS and be happy. I assume you have a Rockchucker....I have no idea what a shell plate is but I assume you are talking about shell holders?

I like the simplicity of a one stage press and will never switch. Guys like Bill T shoot competitive pistol matches all year are served well using a good progressive reloader. I believe he uses a Dillon but not sure on which model.

gitano · December 17, 2015, 09:03:45 AM

I use RCBS presses of various types, but no progressive ones. In fact, I don't own a progressive press. I also use the Lee "Hand Press". I don't perform all of the reloading operations on the Lee, rather I usually limit it to either resizing or priming when I'm reloading one of my wildcats that requires 'back and forth' between two or more dies. I also have my bullet swaging press that is capable of being configured to a reloading press. It has plenty of oomph, but I will only use it as a reloading press when I need to resize 'odd' wildcats that need a lot of effort to go from a parent case to the wildcat.

Honestly, I think that blaming lack of precision in a cartridge on a reloading press is putting the blame in the wrong place. Unless there is something actually WRONG with the press, there should be very little variation in output from one case to the next. However, there are a LOT of people that would disagree with me on that matter. The proof for me is that I have loaded VERY precise ammunition on the Lee Loader (the little kits that don't need a press). To me, that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that precision ammo can be had regardless of the press. But... That's just my opinion. I have not conducted focused experiments to 'scientifically' prove it.

Personally, I don't "like" progressive presses EXCEPT for shotgun and pistol reloading. I truly enjoy the 'single stage' reloading process. Just like I enjoy weaving on a floor loom or working wood or metal at a lathe. There is 'peace of mind' to be had in the focus required for those types of activities. I like that peace of mind, AND I get a product I am confident in the use of.

Paul

farmboy · December 17, 2015, 11:52:37 AM

My rcbs is what they called a 4x4 it is an early one they did not make them very many years. It is a four station manual indexing progressive press. The shell holder plate is a two and a half inch plate with a center hole and four cutout for the cases. The press is really heavy. That's why I bought it in the first place it looked like a lifetime purchase. The shell plates are now special order and looks like they will be over a hundred dollars a piece plus waiting time now. I do have quite a few now but I do need a couple more.so half way to a new press or all the way to a good used one. I do think that the seating dies make a difference or I have been able to measure a difference. So that is the dilemma.

sakorick · December 17, 2015, 12:13:10 PM

Sell it on EPAY and buy a Rock Chucker. I have an old rock chucker Jr that is a bit rusty but you could have it for the postage. Let me know.

Bill Thibeault · December 17, 2015, 12:26:26 PM

Probably the most widely used progressive press made in the USA is the Dillon 650. It auto-indexes, and will load practically all rifle and pistol calibers. It takes standard 3/4" X 14 dies made by all manufacturers. A cheaper alternative is the Hornady Lock-N-Load press. Progressive presses will load ammo just like factory stuff, capable of < 1 MOA accuracy in good rifles. I have three presses: a single stage RCBS Rockchucker, a Dillon Square Deal B (SDB), and a Hornady Lock-N-Load. The Dillon SDB will only load pistol calibers, and it uses proprietary dies made only by Dillon. I have it set up for .45 ACP, and the Lock-N-Load set up for 9mm. Between the two I load and shoot about 6,000 rounds per year. I don't do much rifle shooting; what little reloading I do for it I do on my single stage press. Dillon has the best guarantee in the business. I bought my Dillon SDB used, and what little has gone wrong with it has been fixed free of charge by Dillon. I even told them I bought it used and had no idea how old it was or how much it had previously been used. Dillon said that didn't matter; they guarantee their products for life.

gitano · December 17, 2015, 12:32:45 PM

Please don't take the following as 'argument', because it is not. However, I would like to discuss the idea that bullet seating dies "make a difference" in precision.

I can explain my perspective best by stepping through the firing process. If we say the bullet is WAY out of 'coaxial alignment' with the cartridge case - say 0.010" - AND the chamber is not only out of round - say another 0.010" - meaning that the bullet doesn't align perfectly with the bore, but ALSO misaligns the bullet with the bore. This is about as "bad" as "it" can get with respect to "bad". The misalignment of the bullet with the case is "random" in terms of where it ends up relative to the bore. Add the out-of-round chamber, and there is no way to predict how the bullet will align with the bore from shot to shot. This should represent "as bad as it gets" for shot-to-shot consistency and, according to the "alignment" argument, produce the worst precision at the target.

We'll pick the worst possible alignment. In other words, all the random alignment elements "line up" to the worst possible misalignment of the bullet with the bore. Upon ignition, the bullet is forced into the bore. Let's take a similar circumstance of bullet alignment: dropping a bullet in the seating die of a Lee LoadAll. The top of the seating die - the part that receives the bullet from your fingers - is more than TWICE the diameter of the bullet, yet "somehow" the bullet gets aligned with the mouth of the case. That "somehow" is patently obvious; there's a 'funnel' that guides the bullet to the mouth of the case. Nobody has any problem with that understanding, but then it is 'visible'. The cartridge firing is not. Just like all other alignment issues, the bullet fired from a cartridge gets 'funneled' into the bore. PERFECTLY, because NOT perfectly takes more 'effort' to accomplish than perfectly does because of a 'law of nature' called "path of least resistance". Why would a bullet be forced OUT of alignment when nothing else is touching it but the walls of the throat?

Now that the bullet is in the bore and travelling down the barrel, NOTHING, can deform it other than the process of swaging. How could it be swaged "off center"? There is NO mechanism to cause it to be swaged other than to the centerline of the bore. Anything else defies the laws of physics/engineering.

Finally, the bullet exits the muzzle. HERE we have issues that EYE (for emphasis) find the most compelling with respect to at-the-target precision. As the barrel is the last 'thing' to touch the bullet, I believe the muzzle is the most significant component of "precision". Here is where seating DEPTH and barrel timing ('things' that occur back at the breech) effect the bullet. As the MUZZLE "whips" with the harmonic motion, and the bullets arrival determined by seating depth and in-bore transit time, the MUZZLE 'throws' the bullet 'around' RANDOMLY. Furthermore, as the muzzle gets fouled by powder residue, bullet jacket gilding, and lead if shooting lead bullets, the gasses escaping around and past the bullet as it exits the muzzle, can be UNEVENLY shooting past the bullet thereby 'pushing' it in one direction or another.

IF the bullet has INTERNAL inconsistencies in density, in other words uneven thickness of the jacket, or "air pockets" in the core, or other density inconsistencies, the path of the bullet will be described by a helix/spiral instead of a straight line. Where in that helix the bullet hits the target determines the precision of GROUPS. (I have an interesting observation that I will start a thread about that.) But if the bullet is "good" with respect to uniform density, then it is my assertion that pretty much NOTHING associated with "bullet alignment" rearward of the muzzle has ANY impact on group size (precision) at the target.

Let me repeat: I'm not arguing. Rather I am "making my case" for my opinion on the importance of 1) concentricity of bullets with cases, 2) Concentricity of rifle chambers, and 3) "Perfection" of reloading dies. There are THOUSANDS of people that disagree with my opinion on this subject. However, I continue to disregard those "alignment" issues and continue to load precise ammo. At least precise enough - 1 MoA - for the hunting I do at less than 300 yd.

I am not trying to talk you or anyone else into changing their opinion about how they reload or what they choose to "pay attention to". I simply want to present a dissenting opinion - with explanation and justification - so that others are not given only ONE point of view on the subject.

Paul

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · December 17, 2015, 01:00:09 PM

I have a Dillon xl650, rcbs ammo master, rcbs rock chucker, redding t7, corbin csp1, and a lee classic turret all on my bench.
My go-to is the redding t7, basically I like the 'openness' of that press.
BTW Bill std dies are 7/8"ø.
The dillon will load fine rifle ammo but I prefer to tinker in front of a single stage press.

farmboy · December 17, 2015, 03:41:59 PM

Paul just the answer I was looking for a well thought out opinion. The reloading die thing came about because I tripped across a rcbs case comparator that was used and almost free. Personally I always thought that the fancy seater dies were a sales pitch. I do have a couple of sets of dies that have the fancy seater dies just because I found them cheap somewhere a number of years ago. I loaded some rounds with both kinds of seaters and the run out on the standard dies was just over four thousands and with the benchrest seater was one thousand on an inch. Now that bring said I have not shot the two lot sizes for group size yet. The two best shooting rifles I have ever owned the ammo was loaded with standard rcbs dies. So you may vary well be correct in your beliefs.

farmboy · December 17, 2015, 04:07:00 PM

Other ideas or stories about dies a good shooting buddy started off with all Lee dies. By the Times he was in his late twenties he thought that his dies were his weak link so he replaced all of them with hornaday new dimension dies after a couple of years he replaced them all again with Redding dies and his group sizes ended up about the same as the Lee die loads he felt that the hornaday dies never loaded as good of grouping ammo as the other two kinds. Which then makes a person wonder if it was die setup or just the dies. He always felt that he wasted a lot of money trying to buy better dies than the Lee's he started out with.

farmboy · December 17, 2015, 04:19:19 PM

Quote from: sakorick;142428Sell it on EPAY and buy a Rock Chucker. I have an old rock chucker Jr that is a bit rusty but you could have it for the postage. Let me know.

What a super kind offer. Thank you I will think it over and I must say your old one will be far better in my opinion than one of the new made in China rcbs presses.

sakorick · December 17, 2015, 06:33:22 PM

Quote from: farmboy;142435What a super kind offer. Thank you I will think it over and I must say your old one will be far better in my opinion than one of the new made in China rcbs presses.

It will need some TLC, but all the parts are there. I'll check it over in the AM.

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased) · December 17, 2015, 10:07:13 PM

Farmboy, the simple reality is that none of the 'experts' are able to tell you what die & press combination assembled what ammo, I have always said go with the colour of the box that you prefer.

Another truth is that all manufacturers produce sub-standard stuff from time to time, my preferred supplier, Redding (I like the box and the carbide expander upgrade), has made some really poorly finished dies in the past.