Obsolete Series .35 Newton

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Now why do you think that this cartridge should have become obsolete?

[Paul Hoskins]

Jay, Newton was simply too far ahead of the times for all his cartridges and guns. His ideas didn't catch on until long after he was gone. His cartridges were magnums without a belt on them. Even his rifle design didn't catch on until Roy Weatherby picked it up and made it successful. Roy was a salesman where Newton wasn't. If Newton were alive today and in the business, he could make it if he did the marketing thing Weatherby did. Now we are seeing magnum's without belts like the old Newtons. Back in the 70's I bought a 22 Newton rifle in superb condition for 500 dollars and being the fool I am sold it for the first 550 dollars that came along. Today it is probably worth four or five times what I sold it for. I always liked the 22 Newton cartridge. maybe that is why I built one on a Ruger #3 action. It is my go to rifle for a meat gun. ..........Paul H

[recoil junky]

What I'd like to know is what Newton used as a parent cartridge. I've never been able to find out and it's too late to ask Dad. This cartridge has always intrigued me and I wouldn't mind having a rifle chambered in one if I knew what to make brass out of.

RJ

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

    Errrr why does it have to copy something else?

What I'd like to know is what Newton used as a parent cartridge. I've never been able to find out and it's too late to ask Dad

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    Perhaps Newton designed his own?

    After all Sir Charles Ross did with his .280

    Roy Weatherby was just a good salesman, not let correct that a very good salesman! But I don't think like the company that bears his name today he actually made anything. Sure he had ideas some may even say vision. However without companies like Holland & Holland who did design and develop cartridges where would he be?
 
   I also find it strange that Americans always talk about Newton as the father of High Velocity and then forget the .280 Ross .

[Paul Hoskins]

RJ, it's like BH said. Newton didn't copy anyone or use any parent cartridge. He had his own brass made. Offhand I can't remember who made cases and ammo for him but it seems like UMC and Western Cartridge Co. loaded Newton's cartridges. Haven't done any research on Newton in a long time. The man did everything from scratch..............Paul H

[Paul Hoskins]

Incidentally BH, I wasn't aware anyone claimed Newton was the father of high velocity cartridges. He might have been in this country but he probably wasn't the first. Also the 280 Ross doesn't have anything near the modern design of Newtons cartridges. While I'm at it, according to Cartridgess of the World, Sir Charles Ross didn't design the 280 Ross. It was designed by an assocciate, F.W.Jones but the stuffshirts have to put their name on it. It is much like the home cordless phone, claimed to be invented by IBM. One of my uncles and a co-worker who worked for IBM invented it but you don't see their name on it..........Paul H

[m gardner]

I think Newton was a great designer but didn't understand marketing or manufacturing. If he had someone else market and manufacture his product things may have been different. God bless and good shooting.
Mark

[sakorick]

I agree with everything posted on this thread. The man was waaaaay ahead of his time......Take a good look at that case. What comes in mind to me is Ackley. I wonder if the Newton had a bearing on PO Ackley's thoughts?? Regards, Rick.

[gitano]

I did a little paper-whipping with QuickLoad and came up with the following numbers with a 180-grain bullet from a 24" barrel, 6" target, and a chamber pressure of 43,843 PSI:
 
Muzzle Velocity and Energy - 2949 ft/s and 3475 ft-lbs
100 yd energy - 2925 ft-lbs and 2.6" high
200 yd energy - 2448 ft-lbs and 2" high
300 yd energy - 2034 ft-lbs and 4.2" low
 
Just about ideal paper ballistics for my tastes.
 
Paul

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

    Hmmm I just did a little searching and cannot find earlier references to Newton and his rifles and cartridges until 1912 sooooooooooooooooooooo bearing in mind that the .280 Ross was available from 1906 although the velocity of those first .280 rounds with a 140 grn bullet was only 2900fps ad not the 3100fps which Ross achieved a few years later. His later loads had the 180 grn target bullet achieving 2900fps and in 1913 Ross rifles using this .280 cartridge won so many of the NRA's silverware at the annualt Imperial Meeting at Bisley that consideration was given to banning the Ross and the .280 cartridge :undecided: .

   So how come Newton of the Buffalo Rifle fame is known and :-

  "the Father of High Velocity"

  When in fact he was not, only a follower being at least 5 years later on the scene and he could not have not known of the .280 Ross as a certain Crossman widely publisied the cartridge and rifle of Ross.

   What is also true was that Ross got tunnel vision and he should have also designed a larger bore cartridge which also gave a high velocity  but of course the debacle of the Great War really sealed the Ross Rifles company's fate something Newton did not have to deal with.

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

So how come Newton of the Buffalo Rifle fame is known and
 "the Father of High Velocity"
 
  When in fact he was not, only a follower being at least 5 years later on the scene and he could not have not known of the .280 Ross as a certain Crossman widely publisied the cartridge and rifle of Ross.

This is why BH... this scan is from the Fourteenth Edition of the NEWTON ARMS CO. catalog.

[Brithunter]

OK so what date did Newton first bring out the High velocity cartridges? In my web searching it all comes out to about 1911.

[gitano]

Looks like "In the winter of 1905-06..."
 
Paul

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

I suspect that the timeline is a little different in the 'new world' compared to the 'old country' BH.

A fella over here will come up with an original idea for a cartridge... make it for himself... then his friends... then for the surrounding country and, if it is popular and worthwhile, the big companies will start noticing it.  The 'inventor' then has to decided whether or not he will finance the whole operation for himself (and his business friends)... or will he 'sell' it to some company?

Either way the original will be already made up and used by gun nuts (myself included) who just have to have something different.  So Newton creates what amounts to a 'laser' rifle.  When he makes more than one, that constitutes a 'cottage industry'.  If he makes it first than he can rightfully claim to be the 'father' of whatever it is... even if it is only the principle.

You want an example of this method of getting started?  Take aim at Bill Ruger and his first firearm.  You can bet the first ones were not 'production' as we generally think of it.  You have to start somewhere!

Cartridges and cartridges/rifles is just slightly different.  Here again we are speaking of 'proprietary' products.  The Dakotas, the Canadians, the Weatherbys, etc., etc.

Weatherby didn't use his 'own' action to start with but the rifle/catridge comes under the heading of 'proprietary'.

Newton was a few years earlier than Ross.  Newton's big problem was that he was too far in advance of the powders.  Now... it is forever too late.  Kinda like the issue with the 8mm Remington Mag and the .338 Winchester Mag.

[m gardner]

If memory serves me correctly I believe that Newton also developed a bullet to stand up to the increased velocities of his cartridges. It had what looked like a nail inside the copper cup to retard expansion and hold it together and was insulated with paper because he believed that the lead melted when it heated up going down the barrel. Jay do you have any info on his bullets ?
Mark

[Paul Hoskins]

Rick, from what Ackley related to me personally, Newton had considerable influence on his cartridge designs. As Ackley said, Newton's cartridges were designed conservatively and functionally. In other words they were designed to function and feed through bolt guns perfectly. If you look at Ackleys cartridge designs, most are consevatively and intelligently thought out. If he designed one that wasn't up to his expectations, he would tell you just that. As for Newton developing bullets to withstand high velocity, I'm not qualified there. It is folly to think lead melts in the jacket upon being fired from a gun...............Sorry to be late getting back to this but my puter has just about had it. Got a new one today and will probably get it wired together this weekend if the little sweetie can come up............Paul H

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

OK guys... here is the information that was supplied in the Fourteenth Edition of the Newton Arms Co. catalog.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

    Right got my little book out and sir Chales Ross patened his first stright pull design whilst still a student at Eton in 1893
his he refined to a more practical design in 1896 and a new patent was obtained in 1897. These rifles were made in Hartford Connecticut by a Joseph A Bennett.

Ahh have to run as we have o go into town  will finish this later

[m gardner]

Here's some info one his insulated bullets I found by searching "charles newton, buffalo new york".
 
 
 
 Newton reported on October 15, 1915 that he had applied for a patent for an "insulated bullet" and would be furnishing cartridges loaded using this bullet for the Newton high power rifles. No patent could be found for this bullet. The insulated bullet was listed in the eighth edition (1915) of Newton's catalog and was mentioned in the August 1915 issue of Outdoor Life. This bullet was developed to remove the heat from the lead core of the bullet. Its construction covered a paper wrapped lead bullet core with a pin inserted thru the center of the core. Samples of this construction are shown below:
.
 
He was a pretty interesting guy. God bless and good shooting.
Mark

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

    It seems that Ross first started trying to achieve his goal of 3,000 fps using the new US Military brass but was unable to get more than 2,700 fps so he designed his own case and achieved his goal in 1906. Ross also had troubles wiht the powders of the day. In 1907 Eley bros commenced commercially making the .280 Ross ammunition and a velocity of 3,050 fps using a bullet of 140  grains. In 1908 Ross designed his "Sharp pointed Copper Tube" bullet od 146 grains in weight and got velocity to 3150 fps.

   The short paperback book does not go into depth about the development and only mentions the introduction. Seems I need the expensive Ross History book .

[gitano]

Here's an interesting comparison...
 
Paul

[utseabeescw]

For anyone who wants a 35 newton. Midway is now listing 35 newton brass as coming soon. That could be fun.