A New Rifle

[recoil junky]

After drooling over Remington's newest addition to their line up, the 700 Long Range and my wanting a 25-06 for a long time, the planets and stars finally aligned.

This after over a month waiting for my gun guy to find one. Seems Remington hasn't made very many of these and they are "scarce as hen's teeth" and all my internet searches were as fruitless as his. Anyway, I get a call late yesterday while me 'n t'missus are sitting on the couch and she's privy to the whole conversation as "Jimmy" and I belittle each other. There's no hiding this one, so I tell her what I did and she's not "thrilled" but not "upset" either.

"Where'd you get the money?"

"I've been saving."

"For how long?"

"A couple years." (It's been longer than that actually)

"Oh. What's this one going to be good for?"

"Oh, everything, varmints, deer, antelope."

"I thought you didn't need to kill another antelope."

"Well, I don't but you never know when a rogue one might need dispatched."

She grins, "Rogue antelope huh?"

"Yep. You know how they are, always looking for an excuse."

"Will it be good for elk too?"

"Yeah, you know, the 'rogue' ones."

Here's the particulars. Click on "specifications"

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-long-range.aspx

RJ

[gitano]

Congratulations!

That's a very popular cartridge in your neck of the woods. Seems a little small for elk, especially "rogue" elk, but then I'm not exactly an elk "expert".

Too many people fail to understand the concept that one can have more than one gun for the same game species. And not all of those people are women!

Paul

[Hunterbug]

At least she didn't ask what you need it for. Need should never change in to the picture. I'm going to tell you the same thing that Gitano told me, just break down and buy 50 and after that she won't keep track.

[gitano]

Worked for me...

Paul

[sakorick]

It's a classic caliber. It was easily the most popular wildcat back in Colorado in the early 60's. I didn't even know it was a wildcat until I got back from my first tour in 1968. All the news then was that Remington was going to standardize the cartridge and offer it in the 700 in 1969......they did. The 25-'06 is simply a 30-'06 case necked down to .25 caliber with no other modifications. With a high BC and blazing speed, it is flat shooting, retains it's kinetic power way down range, and easy on your shoulder. SIL Wylie has one in a Savage 110 with accutrigger and I have one in a Mauser custom Ackley. The 25-'06 is very versatile in that if you are looking for a rifle that's great on Varmints which can also preform on deer and Elk you would be very happy with the baby 30-'06. Thank you, Charles Newton.

[recoil junky]

According to my book(s) A.O. Neidner is the father of the 25-06, but at thos point it doesn't really matter. The poor old '06 has been necked up, down, Improved and back by everybody. It is a classic. I want to get it Ackleyed, but I noticed the ground dwelling rodents are out, so I may wait.

RJ

[22hornet]

"she's not "thrilled" but not "upset" either"
 
 For me that's a great sign.
 
 How long before you think you might have one in your hands?

[recoil junky]

Might be here tomorrow. Now it'll have to wait 'til we get back from Florida now as we're heading for Denver to fly out as soon as I get off work tomorrow night, and getting back late on 1 March. I'll have it to look forward to.

RJ

[Paul Hoskins]

RJ, the only 25/06 I ever owned was a Ruger #1 & it shot great. I don't like 25 calibers but that doesn't mean they're not good. I gave it to a friend. I bought it with scope for 275 dollars. I have your problem with the wife. She keeps asking why I need another gun. Women just don't seem to understand. .....Paul H

[davidlt89]

beautiful gun!!!!! first I have Heard of it!!! I certainly do like remingtons. 25-06 was a caliber I had always wanted but never made the plunge!!! I got a great deal on my thompson center encore brand new, about a third of the price of that rifle, so I just had to get it. was at the beginning of my reloading phase and Paul helped me load two bullets for it, 115gr and an 85gr. both shoots the lights out. That rifle is never going anywhere!!! hoping my oldest boy uses it this year!!!! Great caliber!!!! God Bless.

[Brithunter]

Well I took a look and cannot see how it can be called beautiful :huh: ................................. sorry.

     I hope you like it after all it's YOUR RIFLE so that's all that really matters.

[recoil junky]

Well I took a look and cannot see how it can be called beautiful :huh: ................................. sorry.

     I hope you like it after all it's YOUR RIFLE so that's all that really matters.

We all know your love of Remingtons runs deep BH.  

I have the rifle in my possession now after returning from a much needed weeks worth "warming up" in Florida. I'll 'put it together" on Friday. and fire form a few cases to get the new off. If all oes well I should have a group or two to share later in the weekend.

My next rifle is definitely going to be a Sako of some sort. I deserve one.

RJ

[recoil junky]

and pictures!!!







The scope is a 4.5-14X44 "take off".

And now some groups.

A group I shot yesterday before I got "tired".



Hmm, not quite there yet . . . .

And today's group. Definitely not a "10" but closer to a "6 1/2"



Everything the same as before but more powder, shorter COAL, trimmed and flasholes deburred. So far, cases aren't growing like I had expected them to. After initial trimming and fire-forming, the same five only grew (on average) .004" over ten shots apiece. One of them had 11, but I don't know which one :o Probably the one that was 2.489".

So what IMO does a "Ten" group look like? I have yet to shoot one, but this one from my .243



is an 8 1/2. All because of operator error.

 Velocity is 3173 fps (avg.) with an extreme spread of 21.3 for 5 shots. Both Lyman and Hogdon say this (maximum) load should be 3020-3035. This isn't the first time I've been able to beat what the books say and still show no signs what-so-ever of pressure. Not that I go around trying that, it's just the way it works out sometimes.

So that means those five pieces of brass? They've been fired a total of 11 (12 if you count the one in an actual 30-06) times now, only trimmed once. Not bad for junk Remington brass.

I'm going to run another 50 rounds of this load, then see what group size looks like. If it's like my .243, 300RUM and one of  the .223's (all Remmys) they tend to need some tweaking after some more barrel break-in.

RJ

[Brithunter]

Actually it's my real dislike of plastic stocks They look cheap, feel cheap and to me feel dreaful and it don't matter what the make is.

I will have to admit that I really don't like the Rem 700 ............................ at all  regardless of stock. The 700 Classics look OK from a distance. Their lines are right but I still wouldn't have one.

[Jamie.270]

Actually it's my real dislike of plastic stocks They look cheap, feel cheap and to me feel dreaful and it don't matter what the make is.

I will have to admit that I really don't like the Rem 700 ............................ at all  regardless of stock. The 700 Classics look OK from a distance. Their lines are right but I still wouldn't have one.

Gee,...  Really?
Gosh BH, I never woulda guessed!
:cheesy: <---  This is my sarcastic face!

:grin:

Nice piece RJ!
With a 6.5 and a .270 I really have no use for a "quarter bore," but that looks like the ideal platform for one.

[gitano]

I don't know what it is about the .25 caliber, but I have always been drawn to it. Didn't care for .243s for some reason. Been down the .270 Win path, and while I think it's a great cartridge, it's just not held my interest. I think the .284 edged the .277 out for me. Don't know why the 6.5/264 never really turned my crank either. I like the 6.5x55, but that cartridge seems to be a "big game" cartridge, and there are so many others - like 7mm/.284 - that just hold my interest more. Such are the things horse races are made of.

I like .25s. The .25-06 is certainly the largest case I would entertain, but with the 'new' powders AND a barrel at least 26" long, 'I'm a believer'. I think it's a great caliber for pronghorns, western whitetails, and mulies. I think the .25-06 might be a bit 'much' for small varmints, and it's certainly not going to be 'fur friendly' for foxes and coyotes.

What bullet and powder are you using?

Lookin' forward to dead critter pictures.

Paul

[recoil junky]

I would have liked to get the 25-06 with a nice Walnut stock, but unfortunately NO ONE makes a 25-06 with a 26 inch barrel other than Remington, so I was "forced" to take what I could get.

BH, I don't begrudge you our dislike for Remingtons. We all have our flaws. I'd like nothing more than to have a Sako, Parker Hale or Husqvarna rifle. Someday I hope a Sako will be in my gun cabinet and a John Deere in my tractor shed.

I've always had better than good luck with Remingtons. Even with their plastic stocks, trigger problems and safety recalls, mine always shoot.

RJ

[gitano]

I've always had better than good luck with Remingtons. Even with their plastic stocks, trigger problems and safety recalls, mine always shoot.

paul

[Brithunter]

Gee,...  Really?
Gosh BH, I never woulda guessed!
:cheesy: <---  This is my sarcastic face!

:grin:

Nice piece RJ!
With a 6.5 and a .270 I really have no use for a "quarter bore," but that looks like the ideal platform for one.

Ahhhh when ever did use become a requisite for buying another rifle??

BTW have handled and shot a fair few Remington 700's and I just don't like them. I like the way they are made even less as they really do remind me of "The Woolies Gun" .................................. for those that don't know due to the very cheap way the Sten gun was made it was called this. Woolies =Woolworths the bargin store which originally had just one price for everything Sixpence.

[gitano]

Kinda like to keep this thread on topic. RecoilJunky's new rifle. I suggest that a diatribe on how much one hates Remingtons can be started in another thread.

Paul

[Brithunter]

OK Gitano ........................................ I'll keep my thoughts to myself and my own council.

BTW I would read other forums on THL but my lists start once again at Big game nowt above that.

[gitano]

I'm not sure what going on with that, BH. I haven't changed anything recently except moving some "stickies" to the "Reference Library". If you have a Skype account, we can connect and I can look at your settings to see if I can determine what's happening. In the alternative, you might contact j0e_bl0ggs for some 'closer' help.

I'll look around at the general settings and see if I can find something.

Paul

[recoil junky]

IMR7828, 117 grain Sierra Gamekings, Remington brass and CCI primers.

LRJ

[gitano]

With a COAL of 3.25" and 56.1 grains of 7828, QL predicts 3177 f/s, at a modest - for this cartridge - 57,000 PSI. So, according to QL and "quick and dirty" numbers, you shouldn't be seeing any pressure. That is of course if you are using something close to this charge.

With that bullet at that MV, it's got pretty nice external ballistics with 200 yd zero; 5.5" low and 1600 ft-lbs at 300 yd.

According to the 'experts', that's an elk cartridge. It'll certainly handle mule deer and pronghorns.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Nice rifle RJ, quite like the 25-06 too!

[Brithunter]

I'm not sure what going on with that, BH. I haven't changed anything recently except moving some "stickies" to the "Reference Library". If you have a Skype account, we can connect and I can look at your settings to see if I can determine what's happening. In the alternative, you might contact j0e_bl0ggs for some 'closer' help.

I'll look around at the general settings and see if I can find something.

Paul

Sorry no skype .................... perhaps I should look into what is required. Hmmm I do have mic and head phone from the Xbox 360. I beleive that bit is still in the box. No camera here though. Will look into it a bit more.

   The site did this once before then it seemed to reset itself.

[recoil junky]

I was hoping to see some numbers from QuickLoad. Thanks Paul. I need to measure the case volume in cc's of water so we can be more accurate.

I'm right at 55 grains of IMR7828 right now. I want to say the COAL is 3.155. This because the farther I seated the bullet IN the more accurate it got. Kinda like the 300RUM in that respect. Weird huh.

If the weather holds I'm going to play with it more this weekend. I have to go to my Marine's welcome home barbecue on Saturday after I take him and his girlfriend out for breakfast.

Paul, he's the one in the video on facebook you "liked". To say I'm proud of him is an understatement!!! OOrah!!!

RJ

[gitano]

This because the farther I seated the bullet IN the more accurate it got. Kinda like the 300RUM in that respect. Weird huh.

Not weird to me at all. Seating depth changes timing. It's that simple. Lotsa folks, myself included, think that the optimum off-the-lands distance is between 65 and 120 thou. This of course flies in the face of the benchrest 'experts' that insist that on-the-lands is the only way to go. They are wrong, and I'll make no apologies for saying so until they apologize for the harm they've done to the hunting reloading community.

According to QL, 55 grains of 7828 with a COAL of 3.155" gives an estimated MV of 3155 f/s. That's pretty close to your 3173. Estimated pressure is only 55,920 PSI. "On paper", you've got 'room to move'.

Is the marine coming back from boot or over-seas?

Paul

PS - Just noticed COAL of 3.155 and estimated MV of 3155.

Paul

[recoil junky]

He just got back from over there. He's a V22 Osprey mechanic on the USS Makin Island (LHD-8)

As with the 300RUM, I am over the stated velocity before a "maximum" load was reached by a goodly amount.

We agree (which is rare ) on benchrest shooters. PTOOEY!!!

It is the opinion (unproven with accurately gathered data) of this shooter that with the bullet closer to or touching the lands that dangerous pressure spikes can be seen in over bore cartridges or cartridges with freebore (like the 300RUM) I experienced this while working up loads for my 22-250, .243, 7mm Mag and 300RUM.

As for "room to move" that's exactly what I'm going to do 1/10 of a grain at a time until I reach the desired accuracy or I get pressure signs.

RJ

[gitano]

We agree completely about "on" and "off" lands, RJ.

I used to increase loads in 0.1 grain increments, but I read from reliable sources - mostly the fellow that developed the Optimal Charge Weight theory - that 0.3 grain increments show 'things' more definitively. Then when a .3 grain spread looks best, I move to .1 between them. However, changes in ambient temperature can mask a .1 grain difference.

I'm not trying to tell you how to work up a load! You're long past the need for any of that. I'm just passing on some of the changes I have gone through as I moved down my reloading path.

Looks like you're going to get some good velocity from that rifle.

Paul

[gitano]

Anything new?

Paul

[recoil junky]

No. I have been neglecting my duties, but I hope to get some more testing in over the weekend.

RJ

[sakorick]

Did you get some testing done?

[recoil junky]

I did. I now have a group 3/8" high X 1 1/4" wide. I need to bed the action I think but my Acraglas kit is old and dried up so I need to purchase a new one.

RJ

[recoil junky]

After finally rounding up a Brownell's Acraglas kit I bedded the action and recoil lug on the 25-06 today. Now (as the theme from Jeopardy plays) I'm waiting the 9 hours until I can see if I have a one piece rifle/stock or the hoped for two piece!!

I hate this part . . . . . . the waiting.

RJ

[Paul Hoskins]

I know that feeling all too well, RJ. It's one thing after another. Doctors are especially bad to keep you waiting. I get an appointment for 1 PM & the girl calls me back to a room at 2 PM. She says the doc will be in in a minute. I tell her, no he won't. Half an hour later he wanders in & asks "Have you been waiting long?" I rub my chin & tell him, :Not really. My beard has only grown half an inch since my appointment time." ......Paul H

[recoil junky]

"Have you been waiting long?" I rub my chin & tell him, :Not really. My beard has only grown half an inch since my appointment time." ......Paul H

Great to see you back on board and that you haven't lost your sense of humor Paul!! I'll have to use that one at my next Doctors appointment!!!!

RJ

[recoil junky]

PHEW!!!!

Everything came apart and I was very pleased with the "ooze" of the Acraglas *. My aplogies for picture quality, but I'm not going to take it all apart again

Recoil lug and front action screw hole filled nicely!



"Ooze" filled clear to the bottom of the front action screw. Good thing I had plenty of grease on the screw!!



Rear action screw from the top:



And bottom:



I also put some Acraglas along the sides of the action to take up the gaps there.

Here's what it looks like after dying the Acraglas.



Now I have to wait another 2 days for the Acraglas to "cure" before I can shoot it.

RJ

* I am in no way sponsored by or receive compensation from the makers of Acraglas products.

[sakorick]

I'll  call it sub MOA ......Any bets?

[davidlt89]

waiting on targets my friend!!! God Bless

[gitano]

Looks good, RJ. I like AcraGlass.

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Just  a question,why did you kill it?

:angel:

[recoil junky]

Same load and everything as before this group had promise until the 3rd and 5th shots went south literally.



And here's why:



Notice the primers on the bottom two pieces of brass? Flattened way more than the top three. They even "felt" different. I think I have brass issues. It's from a "collection" given too me and who knows how many years between lots on some of it. It's all once fired from the same rifle though.

Now it's raining so I'll have to try again later.

RJ

[sakorick]

Loose primer pockets? I don't know for sure if that's the problem....operator head space seems more likely!;)

[gitano]

"Operator head space" ???

Clearly some difference in those cartridges to cause the changes in the primers. BUT... they are all Remington-Peters. The only suggestion I have is to measure the case capacities before resizing if you haven't resized already. Measuring after resizing is OK too, but just won't give quite a clear an answer. It'd be a shame to have to measure the capacities of all of your cases, BUT... that may be necessary for the best precision when using brass from God knows where. I expect you'll figure it out.

Paul

[Paul Hoskins]

RJ, check the case neck thickness & case length. Especially be sure there is sufficient neck clearance to release the bullet. You may be surprised at the difference in accuracy. I never worry too much about variation in case capacity.   ......That's a good glass bedding job. I never had that kind of luck. ......Paul H

[recoil junky]

These are part of the same fifteen pieces of brass that I started load development with. They've been trimmed (a couple times at least) chamfered and the flash holes deburred.

I might be fighting bullet problems. This barrel has the same crown as the crown as the 300RUM and the .243 which don't like long boat tails either.

RJ

[recoil junky]

So . . . . . even though I'm not supposed to be shooting I did anyway (more on that in a minute)

Since my last "published" attempt, I got some Hornady brass and changed to 100 grain Nolser Ballistic tips nad Federal LR primers. Not my choice for a hunting bullet, but the should do a "bang-up" job on prairie dogs.



Shots one and two are "fowlers" from a clean, cold barrel. Shot #5 was (to use Paul's excuse) too much coffee.

RJ

[Paul Hoskins]

RJ, nothing wrong with that group. Too much coffee will do odd things to anyone. I never liked Hornady brass or bullets. Been trying to stick with Win. brass & Nosler bullets myself. They serve me well. .....Paul H

[sakorick]

I have nothing against Hornady Brass.....but most of their rifle bullets are trash......Pistol and Muzzleloader bullets just peachy.

[recoil junky]

I'd like to stick to RP brass, but finding any such is like trying to find, well, RP brass. There just isn't any. I think there may have been nothing "wrong" with my converted RP 30-06 brass either, but  I was ready to try something new. The switch to Federal primers was a good choice and I may try some match primers (Federal) before I settle on a final load.

Now I will play with the powder charge by tenths up and down to see if IMR7828 is really the powder I want to use.

RJ

[gitano]

Nice shootin'!

Paul

[gitano]

So what's happenin' with this rifle, RJ?

Paul

[recoil junky]

Weeeeeelllllll . . . . . . . it's funny you should ask. I never really "nailed down" a load using the 117 grain Serrias, which I was hoping would develop into something. I stumbled on some 100 grain Nosler Ballistic tips (PTOOEY) that ended up shooting rather well by accident with copious amounts of IMR7828. I've not shot my last trial load for group, but on a whim took them along to "play with" while shooting prairie dogs and after some scope twiddling they were found to be quite excellent. I have no idea how they group or the velocity, but they are "terminal" prairie dog rounds.

 I have scrapped the RP brass and purchased Hornady brass as it's all there was available. The RP brass was too unpredictable in how it was going to shoot having come from many different years and lots of manufacture. I'll probably neck some back up to see how they run in the 30-06AI. Or I may just pitch the whole shebang.

I may get to shooting a group tomorrow evening as I have three other rifles to run foulers through after I clean them tonight.

RJ

[gitano]

If I was hittin' p'dogs at will, I probably wouldn't spoil the warm fuzzy by doing something as risky as checking the group size on paper. I'm not joking!

Paul

[davidlt89]

I probably wouldn't spoil the warm fuzzy by doing something as risky as checking the group size on paper.

Agree wholeheartedly! God Bless.

[farmboy]

Funny how it works sometimes that you own a rifle that just does not miss. Yet another that groups about the same does not seem to work as well in the field. I have always thought that might be related to stock fit.

[gemihur]

With the break-actions you don't have the continuity of lumber from fore to aft.
Here's an Encore with a whittled forearm in 270 Win.

The Schnabel got a little out of hand, nearly scrotum-like
But shoots like your ringing a bell!
Jimmy