The Hunter's Life Forums

For those interested in 125-grain 8mm bullets...

I just got off the phone with Hornady, and was told that they are no longer manufacturing their 125s. The fellow I spoke with expressed some dismay at that, when I asked him to check. He said he owned a few 8mms, liked the 125, and that as far as he had seen, "Sales were good." Nonetheless, "officially", Hornady isn't making any more, AND they have none in stock according to this fellow.

So...

1) Buy what you can (I got mine from Graf's) as they are "gone" from Hornady's inventory, and

2) Write Hornady at https://www.hornady.com/contact_us.php and let them know that there is still a legitimate (commercial) interest in 8mm 125s. Especially you folks in OZ.

In the mean time, I'm working on getting some 8mm sabots manufactured. :D

Paul

PS - I sent Hornady hte following message...

I spoke with a fellow (Hornady employee at this phone number) today that tells me that 'you' aren't manufacturing 125-grain 8mm (.323) bullets anymore. Your item number 3230. He and I both were disappointed to hear that. I have no idea how sales are going for that product, but he said sales were "good".

I'm sure you'll say quite the contrary, but regardless of your protestations to the contrary, there is considerable interest in those bullets - especially in Australia, (I am told) where they have many 8mm weapons, AND yet not as many of the large-sized critters we have here in North America. As a result, they like to shoot light-for-caliber bullets that have a greater probability of remaining inside a kangaroo, or goat, or feral pig, or...

Please reconsider making these bullets, at least on a once-a-year special run basis.

Thanks,
Paul

Bummer.

Buffalo Arms has some 125 grainers made from solid brass.  Kinda pricey.  Not sure the "why" for being solid brass.  The only other 125 (124g) bullets I've seen are FMJs by Prvi Partizan, but in 7.92 Kurz ammo, not loose.

Nels

Hi All,

    It's sad but I doubt you will even get a response :frown I e-mailed Hornady about the supply problems here and lack of Hornady bulelts which I do like and use when I can get them but never even got a reply :( .

 Their response seems to be a marked change for some years back when I got a faulty box of 155 grain A-Max bullets when they could not have been more helpful . Not sure if I have any 125 grain 8mm's but as I cnanot buy 8mm ammo right now :Banghead: due to the dumb plods not putting it on my ticket I cannot do much about this.

Quote from: Nelsdou;84141Bummer.

Buffalo Arms has some 125 grainers made from solid brass. Kinda pricey. Not sure the "why" for being solid brass. The only other 125 (124g) bullets I've seen are FMJs by Prvi Partizan, but in 7.92 Kurz ammo, not loose.

Nels

Interesting little solid, but I'm more interested in them "blowing up" instead of passing through. I wonder if this is a bullet made for reloading 8mm Kurz to the same "milsurp specs" as the original FMJs? The pulled PP FMJ bullets suffer the same 'fate' for my use.
 
I have toyed with the idea of drilling a HP into some milsurp FMJs to render them more effective hunting rounds. I have always hesitated though, because the milsurp FMJs I have pulled have 'open butts', meaning the jacket does not wrap around the base of the bullet. My concern is that in a 'rough' bore (like some old milsurps), the pressure from the burning powder on the lead core might push the core out of the jacket now that I've removed the front by drilling the HP, and leave the jacket in the bore. In truth, I think the probability of that happening is "small", but "small" is still too big for me when the outcome of firing the next round would likely be an exploded rifle.
 
One of the options I'm 'working' on is getting Corbin's bullet manufacturing equipment. A production model with all the dies and shipping will set me back somewhere in the neighborhood of $6 to $8 thousand. However, I could then make pretty much whatever my little heart desired, including sabots.
 
BH,
 
Here's a little 'food for thought'... Given that you can only buy bullets that are "on your ticket", imagine buying a variety of sabots to shoot bullets of the caliber that you want to. For example, let's say you wanna shoot light-for-caliber bullets in your rifles with 8mm bores, but can't buy bullets because they're not "on your ticket". You get some 8mm sabots and use 7mm bullets. Now I suppose the 'constables', once on to the plan AND screaming bloody murder, would classify the sabots as "bullets", but until they did, you could technically comply with the law.
 
In the US, when the "Accelerators" first came out, the ATF and all of the law enforcement Equus assinus's screamed bloody murder because, when one uses a sabot, the bullet does not get engraved by the rifling. I don't know how we got around all the "cop-killer" hysteria, but in the end we currently have no restrictions on their use. What might happen in jolly ol' England is purely speculation - unles the issue has alread been 'resolved'.
 
Paul

Good luck with your email Paul. I hate it when a good product is discontinued. This happened with my powder AR2206. ADI stopped production and went with AR2206H. Not the same powder and I can't get the same results with it.:frown  
 
Nice of you to mention the Australian market but to put thing into perspective I have been told that 1 years worth of firearms sales in OZ is not even 1 months worth in the US.

I really have little hope that I will even get a response, let alone that it will make any difference. It's just that an email costs me nothing and I do know that customer comments get "added up" by the 'bean counters'. The bad news is; by the time a company stops production of a product, they've usually already been through some internal wrestling, and the politics are such that even if those that wanted to keep production going show a whole arm-load of customer requests, the powers-that-be would eat a bug before they'd admit they were 'wrong'.
 

QuoteI have been told that 1 years worth of firearms sales in OZ is not even 1 months worth in the US.

Given that that is true 22hornet, 10% increase in sales is usually enough to "make a difference" in most markets.
 
I'll probably have to 'show' Hornady and others that there is a market for LFC 8mm bullets by making my own and developing the LFC market myself. Actually, making what the big bullet-makers won't, is the foundation of Corbin's bullet-making machinery business.
 
Paul

Gitano,

Thanks for the "heads-up" on the 125's.  Ordered 3 boxes/100 from Grafs and they are on their way to sunny Castell.  The 125's are just about right for my "little" truck gun I plan to build.  300 "buddits" should last me for a long-long time.:biggthumpup:

Mucho appreciativo, amigo!!!!:hat:

Ol' John:Banghead: :sleeping:

My pleasure buddy.:biggthumpup: I'm always 'there' for a buddy when it means spending his money. ;)
 
I wuz thinkin' about you last night... :confused: :D. I was loading up all the ammo to take to the range on Wednesday. (Closed Monday and Tuesday.) That'd be ammo for the .375x.284 Win, 8mm SLT, and of course the .338 MAI. The .375 and the MAI are going on the Colorado deer/elk hunt at the end of the month. The 8mm SLT may go if I get it field-worthy in time. It needs sights. I'd put a 'scope on it, but I don't have a bent-handled bolt for it. I might be able to use the .375 bolt, as it has a bolt face that could handle the Steyr's .500" rim.
 
Speaking of bent-handled bolts... The guy that did the one on the .375 - Jim Roberts - does excellent work. If you, (the editorial "you"), are needing to get a Mauser or Mosin Nagant bolt handle bent for 'scope use, this guy certainly did a great job on mine. $40 per handle, and that includes return shipping. He is a bit behind right now. He tells me he's about at 3-weeks turn-around time. He also told me that he should soon be at 1-week. I will say that I explained my situation regarding the upcoming hunt, and the time between when I dropped them in the mail and when I got them back was exactly 7 days.:eek: He told me to tell everyone not to expect that kind of response, so don't tell him I told you. :shy: The local yokels wanted between $100 and $150, 3-week turn-around minimum, and they HAD to have the whole action. Balderdash.
 
Anyway, hope everything is going well in Castell. Keep me posted on "The Drawing" :)
 
Paul

Got this response to my email:
 

Quote from: HornadyWell thanks for the request but... There's a certain minimum that we have to have in order to set up and run a bullet, any bullet.
Unfortunately we simply couldn't get to that number at a price that we felt was even remotely fair to our customers. We can do what you want but we would be charging about 10$ more per box and then you would write about us gouging and in a way you would be correct but that is about what we would have to charge. The 8mm is basically seen as a big game cartridge and the 125 was very thin and was basically a varmint bullet.
Demand dropped year after year until it simply could not sustain itself.
sorry

That's a 'fair' response, even if unsigned. However, it's presumptuous to assume "I" wouldn't be willing to pay $10 more for the bullets. Currently, at Graf's "dealer" price, I pay $17/100. You can bet your sweet bippy that I'd pay $27/100.
 
 
Paul

 
Here's what I sent back:

 
Thank you for your response. It was of course no surprise to find profitability the driving force behind the decision to discontinue manufacture of the 125-grain 8mm bullet. "Business is business" as 'they' say.

However, your assumption that "I" wouldn’t be willing to pay $10 more for the 125-grain 8mm bullet is wrong, and I believe it is wrong for a great many shooters/hunters. Currently, I pay $17/100 for these bullets. I would most definitely be willing to pay $10 more for them. I wouldn't particularly like it, but who does like to pay more for something just because it's not in vogue?

Also, I'm sure we'll continue to disagree, but the Hornady 125-grain 8mm spitzer is a fine deer bullet, and hardly 'just' a "varmint" bullet. Using that logic, please explain why an 85-grain .243 bullet is a "deer bullet" but a 125-grain .323 bullet is "just" a "varmint" bullet? No need for reply. It's a rhetorical question.

I appreciate that sales is a legitimate and compelling market indicator, however, it is not the "end-all" of market research. The internet is an amazing source of information. A little internet market research would likely have yielded a better view of the real interest in a light-for-caliber 8mm bullet than simply the sales of a bullet the manufacturer considers a "plain", "varmint" bullet.

Again, thanks for your response.

Paul

Excellent reply Paul. Let's hope they can convince the bean counters to change their minds.
 
Cheers
 
Jorge

Good on you, Paul.
Let's hope they do short runs of production on this bullet.

Thanks guys, but I'm not optimistic. What might happen I think is that Hornady may come out with a "Premium"  LFC in 8mm. Something with a little plastic and some tungsten carbide. That way they could feel 'justified' in charging an arm-and-a-leg for 'em.
 
Life is just simpler than these guys are makin' it. All they would have to do is hit about a dozen of the most popular hunting/shooting/milsurp websites and tell everyine that they are going to only make once-a-year production runs of 8mm 125s. Everybody could place their orders, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that they'd sell more than they currently do. This is hardly speculation on my part. Winchester does almost that exact thing with their "obsolete" brass production. Everybody knows it's a once-a-year proposition for 'oddball' brass, and when it comes out, they buy a year's supply. There's a world of difference in that and "We're not gonna make it any more."
 
Anyway, I'm working hard on getting some of Corbin's gear. If I do, 8mm will be one of the first calibers I start making bullets for. AND...I'll be makin' sabots too. :D
 
Paul

Sheesh! I got a response to my response.
 

Quote

we're well aware that sales per se are not the be all end all of making products but interest versus purchases is ultimately the decision. If you look at our line you will see many items that are there simply because we felt it important to have something even if it isn't much (348?)
Unfortunately you simply cannot do that everywhere every time.
Frankly, while you might be willing to pay that price we'd be embarrassed to offer it because we feel our customers would think less of us for charging such a high price.
the 85 grain 6mm we make is a bonded core design with the heaviest jacket we could put in it whereas the 8mm 125 is not.
Shoot the 150's, they're readily available, excellent for deer, CHEAPER, than the 125 would be, only weigh 25 grains more very little difference in recoil or trajectory and did I mention they're cheaper?

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Quote

If you look at our line you will see many items that are there simply because we felt it important to have something even if it isn't much (348?)

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Hello Paul. Hornady is a strange outfit. I called them with a broken pin on a set of dies and they shipped me 3 spares in 2 days....free. I called them about some defective SST's I reloaded and they said it was impossible.....they can be just that.....impossible. I don't like being called basically a liar and told them so....never got a response.:( Regards, Rick.

Actually, as a business, I kinda like Hornady. Taken as a whole, their bullets probably shoot better in my guns than any other single bullet manufacturer's do. I also like their reloading dies, and their willingness to make custom dies without arrogance or charging so much you have to take out a second mortgage. I aso appreciate an attitude the likes of "We would be embarrassed to charge that much". In this case, I think that was just a bit too convenient as justification for discontinuing a bullet.
 
What rankles me of course is the dumb "logic", AND especially the stupidity about the 125 being a "varmint" bullet. Good grief!
 
It's a business, and they made a business decision. I can live with that. I just wanted them to know that there are folks that don't like the idea of the 125 8mm bullet "going away".
 
Paul

You know?  I seem to recall a bullet manufacturing business that came about JUST because a shooter couldn't get what he wanted from any current manufacturers.  It could happen again, I suppose.

So what now Paul?
 
Are you going to stock up on 125gn Hornadys? Is there another manufacturer that produces an 8mm LFC projectile?
 
Maybe swage your own?
 
It would be a shame to shelve the project because of one bullet manufacturer!

There was a German company that made a 140gr HPBT kinda like a GS bullet especially designed for wild boar.
If I could get my hands on them I'd be very pleased.

Quote from: gitano;84216My pleasure buddy.:biggthumpup: I'm always 'there' for a buddy when it means spending his money. ;)
 
That is what friends do for friends!:hat:
 
I wuz thinkin' about you last night... :confused: :D. I was loading up all the ammo to take to the range on Wednesday. (Closed Monday and Tuesday.) That'd be ammo for the .375x.284 Win, 8mm SLT, and of course the .338 MAI. The .375 and the MAI are going on the Colorado deer/elk hunt at the end of the month. Good choices...especially the .338 MAI...!!!:undecided:
 
Speaking of bent-handled bolts... The guy that did the one on the .375 - Jim Roberts - does excellent work. If you, (the editorial "you"), are needing to get a Mauser or Mosin Nagant bolt handle bent for 'scope use, this guy certainly did a great job on mine. $40 per handle, and that includes return shipping. He is a bit behind right now. He tells me he's about at 3-weeks turn-around time. He also told me that he should soon be at 1-week. I will say that I explained my situation regarding the upcoming hunt, and the time between when I dropped them in the mail and when I got them back was exactly 7 days.:eek: He told me to tell everyone not to expect that kind of response, so don't tell him I told you. :shy: The local yokels wanted between $100 and $150, 3-week turn-around minimum, and they HAD to have the whole action. Balderdash. Good price....save his address for me if you would!!!:smiley:
 
Anyway, hope everything is going well in Castell. Keep me posted on "The Drawing" :)
You betcha..!!!! Maybe this is our year to get "LUCKY"...:biggthumpup:
Paul

Little "cool" front blew in this AM....Down to 53*...Lite jacket in order. After you and HB get those 2 ELK....please consider a "CARE PACKAGE" of Elk Chili Meat to your ol' pardner down here in the south country. Since I turned 65 last year I am now eligeable for the SENIOR hunting/fishing license....everything for $30....migratory birds, fresh/saltwater.....da de da ta ta! Gotta love it..!!!!:biggthumpup:

Still at play in the fields of the bewildered........best regards and wishes to you and HB for the forthcoming hunt!:greentongue:

Ol' John:sleeping: :Banghead:

So what now Paul?
Press on like I knew what I was doin'. :D
 
Are you going to stock up on 125gn Hornadys?
I just did. I now have 900-ish. That should do for a day or two.
 
Is there another manufacturer that produces an 8mm LFC projectile?
Not that I know of.
 
Maybe swage your own?
That's the plan.
 
It would be a shame to shelve the project because of one bullet manufacturer!
Not likely!
 
Paul

I guess John and kombi were posting while I was, as I didn't see their posts 'til this morning.
 
I don't know about the "HPBT" kombi, but was that "German" bullet company you're thinking of Lutz Moeller's? http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/8-mm-S/8x57IS.htm.
He makes very interesting bullets. They are all manufactured using CNC (Computer Numerically Controlled) processes, as does GS Custom bullets of South Africa. CNC can lead to more precise manufacturing tolerances, but it's VERY expensive. By the same token, for some designs that can't be swaged, it's the only choice.
 
John, I'll see what I can do about getting some game meat to you, buddy. It's not as easy as it sounds actually. Sending meat through USPS is a crapshoot. I have more confidence in USPS of late though. Sending it via UPS is absurdly expensive, at least from Alaksa. Most likely it'll have to be in some cured form like jerky. It'd be easier if I just brought it "under my arm" when I showed up for the exotic hunt. ;)
 
Paul

Quote from: gitano;84365I guess John and kombi were posting while I was, as I didn't see their posts 'til this morning.
 
 
 
John, I'll see what I can do about getting some game meat to you, buddy. It'd be easier if I just brought it "under my arm" when I showed up for the exotic hunt. ;)
 
Paul

Paul,

That sure works for me, amigo!:biggthumpup: We will call that "Plan A"..............should know something in a few weeks!!:biggthumpup: :hat:

Ol' John:sleeping: :Banghead:

I got the 500 bullets I ordered from Graf's. What a surprise!:eek: I've never seen these 125-grain 8mm bullets, and they're not listed in any manual I have nor on the Hornady site. They were listed as hollow points on the Graf site. In fact, looking for these HPs is what set me 'on the track' and caused me to go to the Hornady site, which in turn lead to the revelation that Hornady wasn't going to make them any more. Websites are so often wrong with small details, I just figured some text-writer at Grafs assumed they were HPs because they were so light weight.
 
These bullets are HPs.
 
I am now told that these were made for use in the 8mm Kurz.
 
:eek:Again!
 
As much as I like HPs, these aren't the "good" HPs. These have essentially no meplat. In other words, they are completely closed at the nose. The best HPs - for game anyway - are those with a LARGE, open meplat. These with the closed meplats are best for paper targets and critteres who's weight isn't much greater than that of the bullet's.
 
Geez! Hornady makes a bullet specifically for some VERY obscure cartridge like the 8mm Kurz, but won't make the same (weight) bullet for the 8mm Mauser? Oy! Who's drivin' that boat?
 
Anyway, I now have 300+ pieces of the 125-grian Spire Point, and 500 pieces of the 125-grain HP. Maybe this is Divine intervention, and the HPs will shoot like "a house-afire". It's happened before....
 
Paul

Those hollow points are my favorite Hornady bullets......very accurate if you have a 1 in 10-12 twist. Regards, Rick.

I've never heard of these HP's Could you please post the product number and a pic along side the 125gn SP?

I would be happy to 22hornt, but Graf often sells things in bulk, (wihtout manufacturer's boxes) and such was the case with these. Furthermore, I've never seen them listed before, and they're not in the any of the Hornady manuals I have nor those HB checked in. The product number won't help much as Hornady has quit making all 125-grain 8mm bullets. Nonetheless, you can get them today from www.grafs.com (http://www.grafs.com). Here's the exact location: http://www.grafs.com/product/188878
 
Rick, have you been using the HPs all along? I've been reloading 8mm for so long I can't hardly remember, and I've NEVER seen an HP 125 listed anywhere. ALL of the 125 8mms I have ever been able to get my hands on have been the Hornady "Spire Points".
 
Paul

I got a flyer today from Midsouth Shooters that listed the Hornady 125's spire points on closeout, but alas, when I got to their website there were none to be had:( .

Hello Paul. Somewhere along the line I picked up 2 boxes of 120 gr in 30 cal and they don't make them anymore either. I assume they were the same bullet. I only have a handful left and used to use them on critters before I acquired a 220 Swift. They were my favorite yote bullet. Regards, Rick.

Difference is, Rick, that any number of 110gr and 125gr 30 cal bullets are made by other companies but as far as we can see they were the only ones making a predator/medium game 125gr bullet for 8mm.

I checked around to all the usual suspects I know, and I can't find any of the Spire Points for sale anywhere. I didn't conduct a comprehensive or exhaustive search, but at this point, I'd say things are 'drying up'.
 
I'm going to chuck some of the 125 HPs in my lathe and 'open up' the meplat. I just can't stand that tight little "hollow point", that isn't a hollow point at all. At the same time, I think I'll "hollow point" some of the Spire Points too. I'll tell you the truth, if I ever do start making bullets commercially, you can bet your bottom dollar that every caliber from .22 to .51 that I make will have a hollow pointed bullet that is the exact proportional replica of the Speer 115-grain HP in .284". The BC is poor compared to the boat-tailed spitzers, but it hits like a hammer, and I think I've finally figured out why. Anyway...
 
Drilling out both the 125 HP and the 125 SP, will give me four bullets to test. Testing stuff... It's what I live for.  :food04:  
 
Paul

I bought the Hornady 125gr for reloading my brother's 8x57 mauser. The 125gr bullets were from a "mud" sale of a local firing range. They were 30% off.
 
Brass and bullets has been difficult to acquire for this caliber. I wanted the Norma brass, but could only find Winchester/Remington. A local reloading supply has 150gr and 170 gr Sierra's and that is about it.
 
I had good luck with Varget and the 150 grainers. But not sure about the 125gr loads.
 
He mainly just shoots the rifle at the range. But he has a nice Zeiss scope and the barrel has been nitrided and muzzle break installed.

I went on the Norma website and they have 123gr FMJ bullets listed.
 
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=28&Lang=2&DocumentID=161&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Components&Title=Norma%20Hunting%20bullets (http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=28&Lang=2&DocumentID=161&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Components&Title=Norma%20Hunting%20bullets)
 
Must be for that WWII surplus belt fed in the closet. :)

Actually, I think they're for the 7.92x33 Kurz.
 
Paul

Quote from: gitanoActually, I think they're for the 7.92x33 Kurz.

with 50gr of Norma 201?
 
http://www.norma.cc/sortimentladd.asp?Kaliber=8x57%20JS&Lang=2 (http://www.norma.cc/sortimentladd.asp?Kaliber=8x57%20JS&Lang=2)

Quotewith 50gr of Norma 201?

Nope...
 
But more importantly, because the second page you list is load data for the 8x57JS...
 
Paul

I know this is an old thread,...
But I found these today pokin' around at Gunbroker if anyone is interested.  125gr 8mm soft point spitzers.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=143417057

$15/100 if you buy the 500.  No brand name mentioned though.

I've got it bookmarked. I've got about a thousand at the moment, and I've got other plans for $85, AND, I do intend to start making my own bullets commercially within the next 6 months, so I'll have to think about it a day or two. BUT... Thanks for the heads up. I may yet buy some more now that I have the Classic.
 
Paul

My guess is the Hornady. These bullets work great. Although I prefer the HP over the SP.
 
Maybe they will come out with a V-Max.
 
Makes a great varmint round.

Buffalo Arms also has the 125s for the Kurz cartridge, but they want $24/100.
 
Paul

I know this is an old thread but Paul, did you ever get around to making any of the 125 grain 8mm projectiles, as I'm interested in some for a 8x57JRS project I'm considering?
 
Cheers
 
Jorge

I see these 125gr Hornady's on sale at Graf's regularly.

jorge - I bought a press dedicated solely for swaging bullets and I FINALLY, (18 months and a lot of name-calling), got the 8mm swaging dies from Corbin. Unfortunately, the guy that had the swaging press made, had it made to take the "standard" reloading dies which are threaded 7/8-14. The Corbin swaging dies are 1 1/2"-12, so I have to rethread the ram. That project is first on The List after the bookcase is finished. Speaking of which, I finished (all of the milling anyway), the remaining 14 doors yesterday. I am going to start gluing them up today. That leaves very little to do on the bookcase. I should be finished in less than two weeks - still ahead of the Christmas deadline, but lost a week to the 'shoulder incident'.

As soon as I get the press rethreaded I'm going to start making bullets. I should probably start looking for jackets now.

Paul
PS - I don't know if Hornady was blowing smoke in my face or they just decided not to discontinue making them. At any rate, they seem to be around. Although I don't see anything but the HPs.

Paul, are you retired or do you have a time machine? How do you find enough time to do all this? I'm flat out as it is. :sweatdrop:

To quote my business partner: "You can sleep when you die."

It helps with "time management" when you're the boss.

Paul

PS - And my kids are grown and out of the house. And while I miss them dearly, their absence makes a HUGE difference in the amount of 'free' time I have.

What a pain about the threads/ Can you make an adapter? I know that Simplex use to make dies with 5/8 threads but you could buy adapters to fit these dies to 7/8 threads.
 
I concur with 22hornet, that's impressive time management. I fail miserably at that one.
 
How is the shoulder Paul?
 
Jorge

Quote from: gitano;123182PS - And my kids are grown and out of the house. And while I miss them dearly, their absence makes a HUGE difference in the amount of 'free' time I have.

My kids take up loads of my time....and I wouldn't have it any other way. :)

Jorge - Can't realistically make an adapter to go "up" in diameter. It would be more work/hassle to do that than it will be to re-thread the ram. The threads in the ram are 7/8-14 and the Corbin dies are 1 1/2-12. No real alternative but to cut new threads in the ram. It's not TOO big of a deal, but it is just one more 'thing' that gets in the way of actually making bullets.

I did start looking for jackets again yesterday. Here another 'gremlin' rears its ugly head. 'Nobody' really makes 8mm bullet jackets. The "big" bullet-making companies either re-size "standard" .308 bullets or have machinery to make jackets. "Machinery to make jackets" is yet ANOTHER set of dies. ALL of the current die-makers would take at least a year and in all probability, it would 18 months before they 'got around' to making a set of jacket-making dies for me.

I did speak with one custom bullet-maker, that makes and sells 8mm bullets, about selling me some of their jackets. I was told that while they don't normally sell their jackets, they might be willing to do so if what I wanted happened to fit in their current bullet manufacturing run. Their bullets ain't cheap - but not bad for custom bullets - and the biggest cost of bullet manufacture is the jacket, so I don't yet know what they are going to ask for them.

The alternatives are:
1) Swage "up" .308 jackets that are readily available, or
2) Draw "down" .357 or .44 caliber jackets that are also readily available.

Option "1" means I have to MAKE a swage to get a .308 case up to .323. To do that, I have to have a "core swaging die", (AKA "squirt die"), that will make a .308-suitable core, then insert that into a .308 jacket, then 'cram' that core into the .308-to-8mm swage die so that the core pushes the jacket out to .323 OD. I am TOLD, (I've been down that "told" path before :mad: :angry:), that a .308 core swaging die is "in stock and ready to ship" for a mere $156 + S&H.

Option "2" means I have to MAKE a 'resizing' die with punch to force a .35-ish caliber jacket through to draw it down to 8mm. This option requires fewer "making" steps than option 1, (no need for a .308 squirt die), however, the problem now becomes jacket length. While it is true that "38 caliber" jackets are readily available, they are too short for the bullets I want to make - even the light-for-caliber ones.

Man! I hate the slavish 'devotion' to .30 caliber!

Anyway... I am undeterred by this. If anything, I am even more 'dedicated' to making 8mm bullets than I was before. Like I said in another thread, "I like vanilla" - meaning "plain", like .30 caliber - but I HATE it when the ONLY CHOICE is "vanilla". In other words, while I prefer to eat vanilla ice-cream, I LIKE knowing that if I WANT to try a different flavor now and then, there is at least a CHOICE to do so. The slavish devotion to the ".30-caliber-is-BEST" idea is not only WRONG, it also foolishly inhibits any but the most dedicated efforts to maintain the extraordinary richness of options we have available to us. Left to the "experts", we would have two rifle calibers - .22 and .30 - and two shotgun bores - 12 and 20, and there would be only two "ethical" choices of bullets for each caliber - one "varmint" and one "hunting".

I WILL make some 8mm LFC bullets of my own design - because bullet manufacturers won't do it! And WHY won't they do it? Because the marketing "experts" have "studied" the market and decided that it isn't profitable. WHY isn't it profitable? Because the IDIOT gun-writer (ptooey) "EXPERTS" have brain-washed the "sheeple" into believing their priestly "special knowledge", and won't buy anything that some STUPID IDIOT gunwriter (ptooey) doesn't "approve" of as "most efficient" or worse yet, "ethical".

MAN! THAT TICKS ME OFF!!!

Paul

PS - You know what calibers are available in rifle bullet jackets? .22, .243, and .308. My case rests. :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:

Have you tried .22 mag. cases?
I can think of a couple ways to expand an annealed .22 mag. case and they are fairly long, especially as you said you were going for lfc bullets.

I have not tried anything yet, but while they could be cheaper, .22 mags are even farther in size from 8mm than the readily available .243 or .30 caliber jackets are. Meaning I would have to increase the number of operations (dies) to get to 8mm.

Paul

Got off on a rant, and didn't respond to the question about my shoulder.

It's getting better because I am learning what NOT to do with respect to specific motions. There two really bad ones: 1) Over-head swing like the serve in tennis or the stroke in the "Australian Crawl" in swimming, 2) Tucking my shirt in on the right side in the back - essentially where one's wallet is.

As long as I don't make either of those moves, OR do them slowly and gingerly, I don't aggravate my shoulder. If I don't aggravate my shoulder, the low-grade but constant pain continues to lessen. I think this is going to be The Plan - "if it hurts, don't do  that" - 'til next Fall. Then come some time around November or so, I'll reconsider surgery to remove some of the 'offending' bone.

Paul

Got the word back from the bullet-maker, (they don't want me to mention their name for a couple of reasons), and "the word" is "good". Mostly.

It's good because they are willing to make some 8mm jackets for me. The "bad" part is that they are 34 cents apiece. Also, this a "one time good deal". They are only doing it because I happen to have made the request at the "right time". They are preparing for a production run of "small" caliber bullets and are willing to put my request in the batch because they are gearing up. On the phone early this morning I failed to fully appreciate the "once-in-a-lifetime" situation, and asked only for the minimum of 600. In retrospect, I think a larger number is a better idea. I have sent them a followup request for as many as 5000, IF they are willing to give me at least some kind of a break on price.

Regardless of whether it's going to be 600 or 5000, I WILL have some 8mm jackets with which I can start IMMEDIATELY (after I re-thread the press's ram to 1 1/2-12), making 8mm bullets. :D:D:D

The bullet I am primarily interested in making is an 8mm version of the Speer 115-grain 7mm HP (#1617) or their 130-grain .30 caliber version #2005. I'm focused on a weight between 125 and 130 grains for the 8mm. Look here for what this bullet looks like: http://www.speer-bullets.com/images/products/SP_VarmintHollowPoint.jpg

Both the 7mm and .30 cal bullets have PROVEN to be EXCELLENT big game bullets, and I'm not the only one (even here at THL) that says so. The key performance characteristics of this bullet design are the WIDE, and OPEN meplat, and the "open point" as opposed to the "hollow point". In strict bullet-making parlance an "open tipped" bullet is one in which the core of the bullet does not reach the tip of the jacket and terminates some distance back from the meplat. Whereas in a "hollow point", the core reaches to the end of the jacket and the "hollow" is cut/swaged into the core material (lead). This is the common form of pistol hollow point.

While I have no empirical data (other than dead critters) to 'prove' my assumptions, I can offer what I think are reasonable explanations for the excellent terminal performance observed when using these bullets:

If trajectory was not an issue - in other words we didn't care about the bullet's flight characteristics - the "best" bullet shape for terminal performance would be a cylinder. A cylinder of caliber diameter means that the largest possible frontal area for a given caliber would hit the animal. In turn, that would mean the greatest transfer of energy from the bullet to the animal. However, as everyone knows intuitively, the aerodynamic characteristics of a cylinder are not much different than those of a barn door, and since we DO care about the flight characteristics of our hunting bullets, a cylinder, while 'best' for terminal performance, is 'worst' for trajectory. For this very reason, bullet-makers have been trying for over a 100 years to 'have their cake and eat it too'. (One of the way's to have one's cake and eat it too - at least with regard to sales - is to just lie about the flight characteristics of the bullets you make.)

What Speer has done with the above-mentioned 7mm and .30 cal bullets is to approach that "have your cake and eat it too" by designing a bullet that has a lead cylinder as a core but has a "fairing" (the jacket), to at least improve the ballistic coefficient (flight characteristics) of the bullet. Because the core stops some non-trivial distance behind the meplat opening, it is for all intents and purposes a "cylinder". The ogive of the bullet almost (but not completely) accounts for the entire point of the bullet. When the bullet hits a game animal, the jacket is immediately torn back to the core, and essentially the projectile is caliber diameter. Thereby transferring A LOT of the bullet's energy to the animal, and doing it FAST. By doing it FAST, the bullet does more "work". (Work in the physics sense.) "Work" is what kills things.

This concept isn't lost on the bullet-makers. It is the fundamental premise behind ALL 'plastic-tipped' bullets. http://www.nosler.com/Images/BulletPics/ballistic_tip_huntingsplit.jpg The plastic tips further improve the BC of "open-tipped" bullets and have the additional marketing advantage that they don't have to fight with the IDIOT gunwriters (ptooey) that are too STUPID to understand that the "hollow-point" of today is NOT the hollow point of the turn of the 20th century.

One of the reasons I have taken the time to explain the difference between "open tip" and "hollow point" AND note that the Speer bullets above have LARGE meplats, is that not all "open tipped" bullets are suitable as hunting bullets. In other words, I am NOT saying that just because a bullet has an "open tip" it is a "good" hunting bullet. MOST "open-tipped" bullets are NOT "good" hunting bullets because the "open tip" is actually closed. In other words, while the core does not reach all the way to the tip of the jacket, the jacket is closed together at the tip to make the smallest meplat possible. This substantially improves the BC without having to put that little plastic tip on the bullet. However, this SUBSTANTIALLY undermines the speed of the transfer of energy when this type of bullet his an animal - MUCH less "work" is done because the CLOSED point is preventing the jacket from peeling back to reveal the "cylinder" of the core. For this very reason, these type of closed-tip "hollow-points" are referred to "target hollow-points", and are not recommended as big game hunting bullets.

There is another advantage to the Speer "open-tip", OR the "plastic-tipped" bullet as well. Bullets are made fundamentally 'bassackwards' with respect to gyroscopic stability. In the absence of air resistance, (like in space), the MOST gyroscopically stable form for a projectile to take is a CYLINDER. (That's why long-ranging spacecraft generally look like cylinders, not bullets.) In the presence of air, the best projectile shape is a "football" - a cylinder pointed at both ends. HOWEVER, since putting a point on the BACK of a bullet is problematic (read "expensive") with regard to manufacturing AND loading, bullet-makers have chosen to keep the 'pointy' nose, and at best, flatten the rear point into what we call a "boat-tail". THAT imbalance is what is "bassackwards" and what CAUSES the REQUIREMENT for "rifling". A typical bullet's shape is "bad" with respect to gyroscopic stability because it puts the center of mass ahead of the center of form. That makes the bullet FUNDAMENTALLY unstable. We are FORCED to employ rifling, and in the case of "long for caliber" bullets, "fast twist" rifling in order to obtain sufficient gyroscopic stability.

The Speer design with the core ALMOST a cylinder and JUST the thin-walled jacket forming the ogive, means that the center of mass is closer to the center of form in these bullets. I know from personal experience that these bullets shoot VERY straight from all my 7mm and .30 rifles. Since target shooters are fond of the closed-tip "hollow-points", it can be inferred that they too appreciate the FACT that a bullet with its center of mass closer to its center of form is fundamentally more gyroscopically stable than one that doesn't.

And that's WHY I want to make my own 8mm bullets... because no one else will make a bullet of this design for the 8mm caliber.

I must in all fairness add that the very characteristics that make this design "good" as a hunting bullet - namely large open meplat and near-cylindrical core - make it aerodynamically 'poor'. That in turn means that is NOT generally a "good" hunting bullet out much beyond 300 yd, and it only gets that far by launching it pretty fast, like from some form of "magnum". To get the full effect from this bullet design, (maximize the work done), impact velocity needs to be fairly high - probably in excess of 2000 f/s for certainty of "hammer effect". A practical example is that I do not load this bullet in my wife's 7x57 because that cartridge doesn't have the 'oomph' to get THAT bullet out to 300 yd and still "hammer" a caribou. While I haven't actually proven that supposition, I don't have enough confidence that it can to take the chance with my wife's loads.

Paul

5000 jackets should see out your shooting. If you get 600 you will just be wanting 4400 more.

I too like the big open HP on Speers projectiles, however good reports are coming from Berger's HP hunting projectiles. And they have a tiny HP. I haven't tried them myself so I can't comment. I think it was David that gave them a go in his .25-06(?)

Would a big HP be somewhat offset by a boattail?

I do recall reading on a website, it may have been castboolits.com, about guys putting plastic tips on their cast projectiles. Is this an option for you to increase the BC while still having a large, open tip?

Good news on the bullet front Paul but not on the shoulder. I have been wearing a hand/wrist brace for a sore tendon that runs from the thumb down. Mate, age does bring it's issues.
 
Good explanation on the bullets. I would like to see the results of your 8mm bullet creation as I'm looking around for another 8mm rifle and plan to rebarrel one of my Dutch Steyrs to 8x57JRS. I would like to end up with an 8x57 (Win 70 for which I must get you some funds to mail out the barrel to me), 8mm-06AI (for which I have the dies for and just need a Turk with a long barrel that can be cut back to 26 inch) and a 8x57JRS (Dutch Steyr).
 
I am going to visit one of my father-in-law's friend who does a lot of gun work on old collectible colt revolvers and machines custom firearms, as I would like him to convert my dutch steyr mags so that they won't need a clip to feed. A bit like the Gew1888 and Steyr M95/24 (Greek) and M95M which were stripper clip fed with no enblock clips required. It will take time but I'd like to get going on at least one of these.
 
Not sure if the Mosin Nagant mags could be customised to fit the Dutch Steyr, but the hole spacing may not be the same.
 
Keep us posted and take care of that shoulder.
 
Cheers
 
Jorge

Have a look at this Paul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40keW-W373w

The bullet maker got back to me this morning and they said they would go down to 29 cents per jacket if I ordered 5000. Interestingly, at least to me, they said:

"We talked about the number you would take and have someone that wants the overtime to do your job.  So if you want to add 4,400 to the lot we need to order jacket material just for you.  The next order is placed friday (tomorrow) and arrives the 20th.  Our guy would have additional work doing this job and everything would ship to you sometime between Christmas and New Year.
 We don't need that jacket material for anything as we just received a supply that completes our orders.  We would be ordering it for your jackets.  Thus we'd need to charge you before bringing that amount of copper and cutting it. " (Emphasis - underlining - mine.)

I'll get back to them today with my response. However, there are two 'things' that are kinda "funny" about that response. It sounds to me like it ISN'T a "one-time-good deal" if I want to order enough jackets to warrant a "special order" of brass AND there is someone in their shop that wants the work. Second, for those of you that can remember '08, this is one of the bullet-makers that was whining about not being able to keep up with the demand after Obama was elected the first time. At that time, I thought that sounded strange because if you're in BUSINESS, and there is an elevated DEMAND, then you up your production in response, you don't whine about too much demand. Clearly, if they want to increase production, they can find the people that want to work.

Anyway, $.29 times 4400 plus $204 (for the ones I already ordered) equals $1480. That's a lot of money to spend on "bullets" right before Christmas. I'll have to give it some more thought, but at the moment I am leaning towards doing it. I am sure I could sell these jackets off on eBay if I absolutely "had" to, and not take a financial 'bath'.

With regard to the polymer tips on my bullets:

I have been thinking about this and discussing it with j0e_bl0gs. There are four potential paths to take:
1) Swage them from some soft plastic like the fellow did in the youtube video 22hornet posted,
2) Contract out their fabrication from some company that does that business,
3) Buy them pre-made from somebody that has them, (don't have any leads on that at the moment), and
4) Make my own extrusion machine and make my own.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't a big deal TO ME. I don't shoot at big game animals at ranges greater than about 300 yd. If it was a "hunt of a life-time" and had a "once-in-a-lifetime" animal in my sights, then I MIGHT take a shot as long as 400 yd. BUT... if it was a "hunt of a life-time", it is highly unlikely that it would be for an animal of a size that I would consider using this bullet on. In other words, I have shot several (different species) "once-in-a-life-time" animals in my life. I wouldn't be going on a "hunt of a life-time" for any of those critters. Secondly, The animals I would still plan a "hunt of a life-time" for are critters like an American bison, or New Zealand red deer and chamois, or an African sable antelope or giraffe. While the 8mm bullet I intend to make would be 'fine' for the chamois, sable, and red deer, because those hunts would be in foreign countries, I probably wouldn't take ammo that there would be ANY chance I would have to "argue" about with local authorities. Therefore...

Given my personal range limits and the very low likelihood that I would use such bullet in a situation in which I might be tempted to violate that personal 300 yd standard, I am not in a 'big hurry' to find a way to put plastic tips on these bullets.

THAT SAID... IF I was EVER to consider making these bullets for commercial sale, I would absolutely be putting a plastic tip on them. ABSOLUTELY! It would probably double or triple the sales.

I'll keep 'you' posted on what I decide to do about the "4400".

Paul

QuoteWould a big HP be somewhat offset by a boattail?

I haven't had time to play with my BC calculator to tell if a boat-tail would change the BC significantly enough to make a difference in 300 yd and less.  BUT what I can say with certainty is: 1) It WOULD move the center of mass farther behind the center of form, ('bad') and 2) most people agree that it is more difficult to get boat-tails to shoot straight than it is to get flat-based bullets to shoot straight. The reason is probably that unless one's muzzle is almost 'perfect', any imperfection is going to cause gasses to fly by the exiting boat-tail in an 'unbalanced' way, thereby pushing the tail right/left/up/down which in turn leads to imprecision.

I recently was able to get Sierra's 220-grain, 8mm,  BTSP to shoot VERY straight from the 8mm SLT that I MADE. But.... I put a lot of effort into making that barrel's muzzle as "perfect" as I could. I attribute the straight shooting of that bullet directly to the quality of the muzzle of that rifle. Other than that bullet in that rifle, I can't recall a single boat-tailed bullet that I have been able to get to shoot as straight as a flat-tailed bullet.

Some BTs are OK, but with the exception of the above 8mm 220, none are BETTER than any flat-based bullets. Believe me when I say I worked VERY, VERY hard at getting some of the 7mm BT bullets to shoot out of my various 7mm-chambered rifles. NONE did as well as the flat-based bullets did.

I'm getting the additional 4400 jackets. I'm going to have to sell something -0 maybe even a gun :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:- to support this habit.

Paul

A 12.4 degree boat-tail would change (THEORETICALLY) the BC from .196 (for the flat-base), to .204. That's a total of 0.008. Using a trajectory calculator, that means a difference in drop at 300 yd of 0.4", just a little bigger than bullet diameter. I don't own a rifle that can shoot 0.4" groups at 300 yd. HOWEVER...

Changing the meplat from 0.15" (the diameter of the HP) to 0.025" (about the diameter of a "pointy" bullet's meplat), changes the BC from .196 for the HP flat-base to .323 for the pointy FB. THAT gives a difference in drop at 300 yd of 2.4". While it's still not enough to make me 'want' to go to the trouble of adding a plastic tip to the HP, it IS 'food for thought'.

What many people forget to consider about BC is that a change in "drop"means a change in impact velocity. The higher the impact velocity (to a point), the 'better'. The difference in impact velocity at 300 yd between BCs of .196 and .323 - when both start out at 2800 f/s - is 1586 vs 2013. THAT is certainly 'food for thought'! The "pointy bullet" ALSO with a boat-tail has a THEORETICAL BC of .340. THAT changes the drop from the HPFB to 2.5" and impact velocity to 2049.

Hmm...

Paul

So...

The above post (#57) was "back of the envelope" so to speak. That's fine for thumbnail sketches of what's going on, but since I'm gonna 'build' this bullet anyway, I thought I might as well 'do it right'. I got out my trusty microscope with camera, image processing software, BC calculator, and Quickload, and 'got serious'. Here are the 'gory details'.

First, since I will essentially be copying the design of a commercially available bullet, I can get specifications from the original bullets - the Speer 115-grain HP and 130-grain HP. From the dimensions of those bullets I can spec the dimensions of the 8mm bullet I want to make. Let me remind 'you' of the relationship between the 7mm, .308, and 8mm calibers: There is 0.024" difference between .284 (7mm) and .308 calibers, and 0.015" difference between .308 and .323 (8mm) calibers. Therefore, when designing the 8mm version of this HP, I can use the proportions between the calibers to 'hone in on' the 8mm dimensions.

Since the caliber is fixed, the bullet 's length and meplat diameter are the most important dimensions. While I could take a caliper to the meplats of the 115 and 130 bullets, precisely measuring the diameters of 'edges' is challenging. I have a microscope set up for acquiring images and image processing software to get the measurements from images acquired by the microscope. The precision of those measurements is a function of the number of pixels per unit length in the images. In this case 6300 pixels per inch. Therefore the precision is 1/6300" or approximately 0.00015". Here are the images for this exercise:

The base of the .308 bullet as the "ruler":
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/308Base-2.jpg)

And the meplats of the two Speer bullets:
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/Meplats-2.jpg)

Armed with that information, I could design the 8mm bullet. Here is an interesting - at least to me - note: The length of the .308 bullet (0.885") is shorter than that of the 7mm bullet (0.93). 'Fiddling' with their lengths allowed Speer to settle on specific weight points probably determined by some marketing "research". I thought I would keep with the same concept with regard to the 8mm version. Therefore, the 8mm bullet ends up being 0.84" long. HOWEVER, the ballistic coefficent calculator doesn't "understand" the concept of "OPEN point". It makes it's calculations based on the bullet's actual length, not its MASS-LENGTH. Therefore, in the table of calculated BCs you will see below, the bullet lengths and specific gravities are "adjusted" in order to give real weights. That should be clearer when you look at the table.

In order to make sure that I was doing the "fiddling" right, I entered the dimensions of the 115 and 130 bullets into the BC calculator. If I could get close to the published BCs, I could be confident that I was manipulating the length and densities (specific gravity in the table), correctly. Here's the table:

(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/Swaged8mmtheoreticalBCsTable.jpg)

You will note from the table that the factory BC for the 115 is .250, and the factory BC for the 130 is .244. The BCs predicted by my BC calculator are .247 and .236 respectively. Frankly, that's darn close. Therefore, I am fairly confident of the estimates for the 8mm.

So for the "plain ol' " 8mm with no boat-tail and no plastic tip, the estimated BC is .265. With a boat-tail, it's .275.  With a point but no boat-tail, it's .362, and with a point and a boat-tail, it's .380.

When I use the 8mm SLT that I made, and plug these numbers into the Quickload trajectory calculator, I get the following tables:

For the "plain" Hollow Point Flat Base (HPFB)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/8mmHPFBTrajectory.jpg)

For the Hollow Point Boat-tail:
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/8mmHPBTTrajectory.jpg)

For the "Spitzer" Flat Base SPFB:
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/8mmSPTrajectory.jpg)

And for the Spitzer Boat-tail SPBT:
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Swaging/8mmSPBTTrajectory.jpg)

With regard to trajectory, I don't think there's enough there to care about - 4" down at 300 vs 2.7" down at 300. With regard to impact velocity the difference is 2201 vs 2488 - 287 f/s. With regard to impact energy it's 1560 vs 1993 - 433 ft-lbs.

While the differences in impact velocities and energies aren't "small", I would submit that they are not relevant. Here's why: The diameter of the 8mm caliber is "fine" - according to the "experts" - for all North American big game. Given that, what we should look at is the delivered energy and impact velocity. Delivered energy for "kill-ability" and impact velocity for terminal performance - proper bullet deformation for delivery of the energy. Again, the "experts" assert that 1500 ft-lbs is "enough" energy for moose and elk. The HPFB delivers 1560 ft-lbs to 300 yd. "Dead is dead." Personal experience suggests that this bullet design needs to have an impact velocity greater than 2000 f/s to deliver the "hammer effect". The HPFB has an impact velocity of 2201 f/s - 10% above the desired level.

Therefore, while there are indeed some realistic gains to be realized by "pointing" the tip and tail of this bullet, FOR THE 8MM SLT, I think the flat base will do just fine. Of course that begs the question: "What about other 8mm cartridges?" To give a brief answer to that, the HPFB in an 8x57 with a 24" barrel and a muzzle velocity of 2975 f/s (probably slightly, but not too much, optimistic):

The drop at 300 is 6.2",
The impact velocity is 1999 f/s, and
The impact energy is 1287 ft-lbs.

For the SP (I can't make a boat-tail),
The drop at 300 is 4.7",
The impact velocity is 2239 f/s, and
The impact energy is 1614 ft-lbs.

I'll leave it to you to decide what you would use.

"Pointing" the bullet certainly has some merit. The real issue will become how easy/difficult will it be to accomplish.

Paul

Got 5000 bullet jackets in the mail today. :)

Paul

Cool. :cool:
How long before they are turned into real projectiles?

I just received the inserts for cutting the internal threads on the press's ram. I hope to get the ram rebored and threaded this weekend. As soon as that is done, I should be able to start mangling a few of these jackets.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;123560I just received the inserts for cutting the internal threads on the press's ram. I hope to get the ram rebored and threaded this weekend. As soon as that is done, I should be able to start mangling a few of these jackets.

Paul

Kewel!
Mind the paws!

BTW, You done the 'floating punch holder'?

QuoteBTW, You done the 'floating punch holder'?

OOPS. Nope. That too needs to be made.

Paul

What on earth did you do before the lathe and mill?
;<)

Used his teeth?

Quote from: drinksgin;123563What on earth did you do before the lathe and mill?
;<)

Swore a lot.

Come to think of it... I still swear a lot after getting the lathe an mill.

Paul

In the context of "pointing" bullets:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/347096/cutting-edge-bullets-esp-raptor-bullets-talon-tips-338-caliber-polymer-bag-of-25

These are very interesting.

Paul

I think Hornady "got the word" about discontinuing the 125-grain 8mm bullets. I am STILL finding them for sale at MidwayUSA. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/444907/hornady-bullets-8mm-323-diameter-125-grain-hollow-point-box-of-100

While I would prefer the exposed lead spitzer, this closed-tip hollow point is better than nothing.

Paul

And you just spent umpteen $ and how many hours making something to replace these?
Hummmmm!

It has definitely been "umpteen $". The time isn't an issue since I have lots of these (as well as the exposed lead spitzers), in hand. Most importantly, this Hornady bullet is nowhere near the big game bullet that the ANVB is.

As I have been saying for decades, almost all of the bullets "out there", are capable of clean kills on big game as long as the shooter does a reasonable job of placing the bullet where it should go. That said, the Hornady 125s - in either version - are NOT the bullet that the ANVB is. They don't have the BC, they don't have the thick jacket, and they don't have lighter weight for higher MV meaning longer ranges at which a light-for-caliber bullet can achieve a specific impact velocity and energy minimum.

The cost for the press, dies, and jackets was significant. However, the 8mm is a caliber I LIKE, and until recently, one with a fairly paltry selection of bullets that weren't a dollar a piece or more. Furthermore, should I need to "liquidate" the press, dies, and jackets, I certainly wouldn't take a financial 'bath'. With the Sierra 220 GameKing, and the ANVB, I have what I want with respect to bullets for the 8mm caliber.

I intend to chamber barrels in 8mm-08 and 8x33 Kurz, for the AR receivers I have. Both chamberings are likely to use the ANVB, and it will be a "better" bullet for both chamberings at supersonic velocities than the Hornadys would be. For sub-sonic use, I still have a lot of work to do to figure out what works best for my applications. Having 8mm bullet swaging dies means I will have considerably more latitude to fine tune a specific bullet for a specific application.

I have no regrets on the money spent, but it has ended up being at the top of what I would consider the practical range. Even a bit over "practical". However, it MUST be kept in mind that I could not have gotten ANYONE to make the ANVB for me at the price I have paid for the press, dies and jackets. As the uses expand to the AR platform chamberings, the cost will be amortized.

I'm glad for all the other 8mm shooters, that Hornady has not TRULY discontinued the manufacture and sale of their 125 grain bullets.

Paul

I would never make any suggestions to possibly start you on another , related, project.( ;<)),BUT, have you considered making custom jackets, individually designed, of various materials,( copper brass, aluminum or other materials) in various thicknesses and hardnesses?
Just an old maytag, agitating away!
Oh, yes, did you ever estimate the BC of the 230gr, 5r, bt cast .308's I sent you?

I would love to make a 7.92x33 Kurz but not having a proper suitable supply of projectiles... :(

Good to see that you can still pick these up but when they stop again, well, I'm not in a position to make my own. And thats the problem with making a rifle and cartridge combo based around a single projectile.
 


And Paul... ANVB?

QuoteANVB?

AIN'T NO VARMINT BULLET!!!!! God Bless.

David, at about 3500fps, ANY bullet is a varmit bullet!

Don - with regard to making custom jackets: I intend to make jackets IF NECESSARY. If I can get the guys that sold me these to sell me more when I so choose, I don't really see the need. However, that is certainly no more than a 50:50 proposition. As for different materials - Nah. Not particularly interested. Copper 'works' for me.

With regard to the .308 you sent me - I don't recall calculation the BC, but I will look. It only takes a few minutes to do it, so if I haven't, I will.

22hornet -  How much does a 100 Hornady bullets cost you 'over there'? Woodleigh's are purty darned expensive over here, but I feel quite certain that is due primarily to shipping. The point being that getting a couple of hundred 125-grain Hornadys shouldn't be too difficult, AND, I suspect that you could get Woodleigh or some other Aussie bullet maker to make some LFC bullets for you if you got a group buy going. I'd offer to supply you, but I don't know what shipping would be, and I only have 5000. I know that sounds like a lot, but consider at least 3 rifles - 8mm SST, AR-15 8x33 Kurz, and AR-10 8-08. Development will take up several hundred. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to supply some bullets, but I couldn't promise to be a "permanent" supplier because I don't know what the availability of these jackets is going to be when these 5000 run out.

David hit it on the head  - Ain't No Varmint Bullet.

Paul

Paul,

Hornady projectiles run at about $35-$48 per 100, depending upon calibre and style. I paid $35 per 100 for my 7mm 120gn Vmax's.
Woodleigh projectiles are expensive at around $40 per 50 up to about 8mm.

I doubt that Woodleigh would be interested in making a LFC 8mm projectile. Simply because I doubt that they would hit a decent market for them. Most 8mm shooters here are either 8mm Mausers or .325 WSM's.
Having said that though Woodleigh have turned out a magnificent little .312 130gn projectile for the .303 and 7.62x39mm.

I am interested in trying their 140gn PP in my .280 British when I get it up and running.

I could import 8mm 125gn projectiles if I made a 8mm Kurz but really I would be better off with a stock standard 7.62x39mm. Especially since projectiles are a big issue.

But then again a 8mm Kurz on a CZ527 action would be cool! :cool:  Or how about on a Cadet Martini? Steady, one project at a time! Got to get the little Brit firing first....

Quote from: 22hornet;124074But then again a 8mm Kurz on a CZ527 action would be cool! :cool:  Or how about on a Cadet Martini?]

I do think one on a Martini Cadet would be cool! I wish those actions were more readily available over here. I'll have to give that cartridge a thought for one of the rolling blocks.

As for multiple projects going at once... why should you be any different from the rest of us. :yes:


Paul

PS - Just did a quick 'paper-whip' on QL with the 125 ANVB in a  26-inch barrel at a max pressure of 52,000 PSI.

It carries 1500 ft-lbs out to 120 yards, and 1000 ft-lbs out to 275. 2000 f/s impact velocity reached at 235 yards. Which makes it a good "deer" cartridge - by my standards - out to 200-plus yards.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;124460PS - Just did a quick 'paper-whip' on QL with the 125 ANVB in a 26-inch barrel at a max pressure of 52,000 PSI.
 
It carries 1500 ft-lbs out to 120 yards, and 1000 ft-lbs out to 275. 2000 f/s impact velocity reached at 235 yards. Which makes it a good "deer" cartridge - by my standards - out to 200-plus yards.
 
Paul

That is from an 8mm Kurz on a Cadet Martini action? Impressive.
I have a spare Cadet Martini action and I can get the brass no problem....

Sumpin' to think about... I would expect it would make a good roo cartridge too.

Paul

There are a couple of qualifiers that should be noted however:

1) Delivered energy is a function of ballistic coefficient (BC). The BC on the ANVB is a calculated one. It might turn out to be different - could be higher, could be lower. As I have said, I trust the calculator as it has been close - within 0.01 units - to the ones I have tested.

2) I'm not suggesting that 52,000 PSI is an appropriate max chamber pressure for a Martini Cadet. It may be, or it may not be. I KNOW from first hand experience that the claims of the "weakness" of Martini Enfield actions is BALONEY, and that's putting it VERY nicely. I have never held a Cadet in my hands, and only used the 52,000 PSI figure because that is what I use for old milsurp actions.

3) The pressure/velocity pairs are purely QuickLoad calculations. QL estimates can be off quite a bit when only "theoretical" and "factory" numbers are used as input.

Paul