Is a 150gr bullet enough for elk?

[teddy12b]

Hello Everyone,
          My encore loves 150gr bullets, and I'm curious if that's enough for an elk someday.  It's a sub MOA shooter with the 150's and it starts to open up significantly with 180gr bullets.  I've taken a couple deer with the 150 coreloks and they didn't complain one bit, but they were under 100 yards and the bullets passed through just fine.  
 
          Knowing that elk are tougher I'd be thinking of loading up some Barnes TSX bullets over the most amount of powder I could SAFELY get.  My local range only goes out to 300 yards and that's the farthest I'll be comfortable shooting because I have nowhere to practice shooting any farther.  
 
           Anyway, let me know what you think.

[rockinbbar]

What caliber is your rifle?

Usually, it's good advice to go with a heavy bullet, but if you are getting bad groups with the heavy ones, then I'd rather have you place your shot accurately with a lighter bullet.

[recoil junky]

Kinda what the rock said. Depends on the caliber. A 150 out of my 7 mag, yes. Out of an '06 no.

RJ

[Daryl (deceased)]

I use 145 grain bullet out of my 7mm mag for just about everything, and have no problems.  I'm pushing them at around 3150 fps, and they're bullets that mushroom without coming apart.
 
But, like rockin and RJ said, it depends heavily on caliber/cartridge.
 
What caliber is it, and what kind of velocity are you getting with it?
 
Daryl

[teddy12b]

Sorry guys, I can't believe that I didn't put the caliber on there. It's a 30-06 with a 26" barrel. I can't believe I forgot to put that on their. :D

[Gmoney]

I'd suggest that a standard cup/core not be pushed too much faster than what Daryl quoted and even less if possible...
 
You may get close to it with a 150 and that long a barrel out of an '06 off the top of my head...
 
You gonna lug that long thing around the hills?

[Gmoney]

What caliber is your rifle?
 
Usually, it's good advice to go with a heavy bullet, but if you are getting bad groups with the heavy ones, then I'd rather have you place your shot accurately with a lighter bullet.

 
Like you have room to talk....
 
You going to be around the house come late October /early November as I'll probably be up in your necko the woods?

[teddy12b]

My encore doesn't feel to be any longer than any other hunting rifle I've held.  Granted it's a couple inches longer than my 336 30-30, but that's to be expected with anything.  It's 40.5" long so it's about the same as anything else give or take an inch or two.  I could lug that around as well as I could anything else I suppose.

[Gmoney]

Ahh...It's an Encore, that changes everything as they are shorter than your standard rifle....
 
If you're going cup/core route take a look at the Hornady Interlock, Winchester Power Points, or the Speer Hor Cores as I consider these to be the best cup/core bullets out there...
 
Of course if you go premium then that's a different conversation....

[Hunterbug]

Define "opens up significantly". Elk are real big critters and personally I would prefer a 180gr bullet that shoots 1 1/2 to 2 inch groups over a 150gr that's under an inch. Everyone talks about sub MOA and it's nice if you're rifle will do it but it's not really necessary in a hunting rifle especially for elk sized game. If you are going with the lighter bullet then in my opinion that necessitates a premium bullet like the Partition or TSX. This year I'm taking a 30-06 as a back up with a 165gr Partition at about 2850fps and my friend will be shooting his '06 with the same load.

[rockinbbar]

Greg,

Now, you know I wouldn't use a precise rifle with a light bullet to hunt with.....:D

Give me a call sometime. I'll fill ya in...

[teddy12b]

What I meant by opens up significantly would be that the ammo I've tried once I get into 180 gr bullets goes from sub moa to 1 1/2" - 2".  I understand that an elk in a pretty huge target, but I know I'm a first timer and if I ever got the chance to go elk hunting I'd feel a lot better knowing I had more accuracy for the sake of 30 more grains of bullet weight.
 
If it gets too questionable it may just be easier to get another barrel for that rifle as well.  It's an easy change on an encore.  If I did spend the money on another barrel I'd want it to be significantly bigger than a 30-06, something like a 338win mag.  But I'm not familiar with what's a good bullet wieght for that caliber either.  From what I've heard they are pretty abusive on recoil too.

[recoil junky]

Ted, do you know the twist rate of that Encore barrel? If it's  a 1:9 it's made to shoot heavier bullets like 180's. If its a a slower twist (1:10 or 11)it will shoot lighter bullets better, but should still handle 180's.  I tried some Remington core lokt 180's a few years ago in the '06 but like you couldn't get them to group under 2".

What brand of bullets were the 180's you tried? I have tried just about all brands and the Seirra game kings are about the most accuate and they won't empty your pocket book. The Nosler ballistic tips are accurate enough but don't hold up under elk conditions. The same goes for Hornady's SST. Both were impressive on pdogs and rockchucks.

 The Swift ScirrocoII's are well constructed and hold up well but I've had some accuracy issues out of my 300RUM Sendero SFII. Mostly due to varying weights in the same lot. There was a 5 grain spread between bullets. When I switched to Nosler Acuubond my problems went away. The Nosler Accubond is not that expensive for a premium bullet, about $21 for 50, which is less expensive than the Swifts.


I've seen a couple of Encores shoot and have to say they can be pretty accurate. Especially when feed the right bullet and powder combination.
Keep dinging with it and it will  come around.

Wanting to have an elk rifle that will shoot one-hole groups is no crime either.


RJ

[teddy12b]

My barrel is a 1 in 10 twist to the best of my knowledge and an identical barrel on Midway.com.  I tried the Swift Scirroco's and they weren't too swift.   Using Scirroco's my groups went straight to 1 1/2" to 2" groups immediately.  For my rifle, those bullets are just aweful!  I also had a 300RUM BDL and they didn't group well in either.  About the best I can expect from 180's on up is 1 1/2" groups.  I'm going to keep fooling with it, but I think the 150gr is the sweet spot for my barrel.  
 
Maybe it'll be the excuse I need to get a bigger barrel someday if I ever get to go elk hunting.
 
I'm not an accuracy nutt, because being a great shot doesn't make someone a great hunter, but when it's your first time hunting something, and you're not on your home turf, it's easy to get the jitters and not make the best shot, especially in field shooting positions.  That's why I expect sub MOA accuracy out of any hunting rifle I use.  That's the only way to really know that if I miss a shot, it was all my fault.

[Hunterbug]

If you can get 1 1/2" with a 180gr bullet then take it. I'd happily sacrifice 1/2 an inch for 30 grains of bullet. That's pretty significant.
 
I shoot a 200gr Barnes in my 338 for elk. I don't find the recoil too bad but then my Ruger 77 is a bit heavier than an Encore.

[handgunhunter]

buy a barell in 280rem and use 165gr. partitions., but seriouly in the 06' i would use the 180gr or even the 200gr. if you hand load even better speed is not all it is cracked up to be. hes not gonna know if it was moving 3000fps or 2300fps as long as you do your job. 1 1/2 -2" aint bad for an encore.just my $0.02cents. but then again i use a 30-378wby and a 338-378wby for elk and deer.

[recoil junky]

Gotta give Ted credit for wanting to be as accurate as possible. It's part of being an ethical hunter. A well placed shot with even a 150 will do a better job than a poorly placed shot with a 180. I've helped retrieve elk that were poorly hit and went to the deepest, darkest hole to die. One in particular we boned out and carried out in 5 gallon buckets. There are some well constructed 150's available. I would shy away from something that is not at least bonded or like a partition.

Ted, where do you plan on hunting elk?

And why prey tell, did you get rid of a 300RUM in CDL???????

RJ

[teddy12b]

I'm don't have anywhere written in stone for where I would hunt elk.  I'd go anywhere if I had the chance.  If I were to load 150's for elk I would plan on using the Barnes TSX bullets because they have an exceptional reputation among hunters.  
 
I got rid of my remington BDL 300RUM because I just got sick of it.  It would have been one thing if I'd have ever found a round that grouped well with it in the beginning but I never did.  I never got decent accuacy out of that rifle and had to put on a limbsaver recoil pad just to shoot it.  I was just tired of dumping money into a gun that didn't shoot straight.  Near the end I found a factory load that shot excellent out of the rifle but I was just so sick of it I got rid of it anyway.  I didn't see any reason for me to have it in Indiana and I needed a couple bucks in the wallet at the time too.  
 
As with anything, there are days that I regret it.  If Savage chambered a rifle in 300 RUM again I'd jump all over it because I know it would be accurate, but I missed the boat on that one too.

[mtsharps]

Hi Teddy
The 150gr will work ok out to 300 to 400 I like the 168gr burgers they have a higher coefficients then the other bullets so shoot with less drop and more energy (about 400 poundes more energy at a 1000yds)

[super 30]

I assure you, 150 grains is enough, especially if you use a high end bullet. Elk are tough. I guided for elk for quite a few years in Montana. Had guys with 340 Weatherbys that they couldn't handle, and I saw guys with 270's that they could darn near make deal cards. It is unlikely that an '06 will drop an elk instantly (although it has been done). The idea is to hit him hard enough that he cannot travel very far before he tips over.  While I prefer a 180 grainer out of my 30-06, and like 200's out of my 300, I know a 150 will do the job. Guys have been killing them for a lot of years with 130 grain 270 bullets. If you can, I would suggest 180's, but if not, 150's will do.

[m gardner]

The pastor at the church I attended in Colorado used  blue coated Barnes 150 grainers in his 300 win mag to kill alot of elk including a 370 bull. He's recoil sensitive. I'm a sensitive kind of guy too and use a 270 win. God bless and good hunting.
Mark

[gitano]

I assure you, 150 grains is enough, especially if you use a high end bullet. Elk are tough...  guys with 340 Weatherbys that they couldn't handle, and I saw guys with 270's that they could darn near make deal cards. It is unlikely that an '06 will drop an elk instantly (although it has been done). The idea is to hit him hard enough that he cannot travel very far before he tips over.  ...I know a 150 will do the job. Guys have been killing them for a lot of years with 130 grain 270 bullets. If you can, I would suggest 180's, but if not, 150's will do.

Eggzactly...
 
Paul

[Paul Hoskins]

What Gitano and Super 30 said again. A well placed 150 gr. bullet of proper construction is as deadly as anything else on game of elk size. People told me 17 and 22 calibers wouldn't kill a skinny deer but I kill as many as I need or want with them and don't have to chase them all over the country after I shoot either. Proper bullet construction is the best answer........Paul H

[Wapiti Wacker]

My grandfather was Bill Harrah of Harrahs casino's personal guide in the Middlefork of the Salmon River in Idaho.In his career of guideing bill and his guests my grandfather racked up(no pun intended) 54 bulls,he always shot a .270 and always used 130gr bullets(sierra boattails), he never shot over 300yds and never lost an animal.On many occasions he told me of guys going in with magnum rifles they could not handle,and of the wounded bulls that had to be tracked for miles or were lost because of poor shot placement.Distance and shot placement should judge what is enough gun or bullet weight IMO.

[Rick]

A 150 gr .308 Triple Shock in the lungs will kill any elk out there out to just about any reasonable range.

[recoil junky]

Lung shots are OK if you like to track them into the bowels of 4377 before they die. Me, I'll take a good shoulder shot, breaking one or both shoulders, dropping Mr. elk where he stands. If he does get up, I've already got another round cranked in and ready. Reguardless of what grain/caliber bullet I'm using

JMHO

RJ

[gitano]

I hear ya RJ, but the fact is, plenty of elk and moose are killed every year with bullets lighter in weight than 180 grains.
 
Paul

[recoil junky]

Agreed gitano. I've taken my share with 150's out of my 7mag. I've seen a few dumped with 130's out of a 270 too. BUT, I still prefer a 180 out of a f a 30 cal. Better yet a 250 from the 35 Whelen  :D

RJ

[Rick]

You should not have to track them very far if you double lung them.  Hit one lung and you could have a long tracking job...but with both lungs gone, the bull should not go that far.  You may have to forego Texas heart shots or shooting through the paunch, but a TSX should do the job if you do yours - shot placement.   It is not bullet size or energy that kills - it is a bullet in the right spot.

[teddy12b]

Update on my little 150gr bullet experiment.  I got out to the range yesterday with the idea of checking my handloads for pressure signs using 150gr triple shocks and IMR 4350 powder.  I started the loads at 57.5 and went all the way to 60.5 in .5 increments.  I had to stop at 60.5 because another .5 of powder and it would have been spilling over the edge.  
 
I just wanted to see how much powder I could put in there before I started to see pressure signs.  To my surprise I went all the way to 60.5 of IMR4350 before the primer even started to look flat.  I physically can't jam any from IMR4350 in the case, and honestly I don't even care to try.  I was just amazed that I could fill the entire case with powder and not have a gun blow up in my face!  There was only about an 1/8th inch of space left at the top of the case.  I've seen factory loads that have flatter primers that the one I got.  
 
Anyway, I'm going to load up the remaining bullets with probably 60gr of IMR4350 (just to have a round number) and hope they shoot well.  If they shoot accurately, which I bet they will by my standards, I'll be done handloading for that rifle.

[super 30]

That's the name of the game. While I am not suggesting you (or anyone else) throw their manuals away, keep in mind that in today's world of litigation the bullet makers and the loading manuals that they offer are VERY conservative in the data that they allow to be published. This does not mean that redline is book redline + 2 more grains of powder, but compressed loads are no more unusual today than they were 50 years ago. In fact, they are commonplace due to the slower powders that we now have. Sounds like you may have found a load. I hope you do well with it. Good luck.

[Alton R Dillon]

super 30  has said it right. I have also have guided elk hunters,and killed many elk.  I once had a 66 yr old lady shoot a big cow with a .243 win. 1 shot.  Keep playing with your handloads, some bullets have different length bearing surfaces, the part that makes contact with your riflings.  if you want to  use 180 gr bullets try some boat tails and  try magnum primers with a hot load.  I use 55 gr 4350 with my sierra game kings , this might be too hot for your rifle so you have to work up to it , and watch for pressure signs. I call it good when the primer shows it has flatened  a little bit.  But  don't worry a well placed shot with a 150gr 30.06 will kill anything in north america. Good luck hunting,
 Alton

[recoil junky]

I split the difference in my '06 A.I. I went to 165 grain Hornady Interlocks. At pert near 3000 fps at the muzzle There's still a bunch of energy at 300 yards. I wouldn't be afraid to go farther than that but I'd want everything to be perfect.

RJ

[super 30]

165's at 3000 from the muzzle of an '06 is some serious speed. I can get about 2950 from mine, but that is with 150's. And that load is warm. My 300 H&H will give me 3100 easily with 165's, but with that case, it should.

[givens6]

RJ , You did not specify bullet caliber or brand. These are very important considerations. A 150 gr .270 is constructed different than a 150 gr .30 cal. 150 is heavy for the .270 ,but light for the .30. also no matter what caliber you use I would suggest using a heavy for caliber bullet(premium) and shooting for the shoulder. Elk are an incredibly tough animal and can take a lot. Although I have only killed 6 or 7 myself we usually end up taking about 4 a year-usually cows. total elk harvest I have been involved w/ is nearing 30. I tell you this not to brag, but to say that I have seen a few Elk taken and have seen some of what works and what does not. The only really bad one was shot by my wife using 150 gr Remington Cor-loc. Before anyone goes ape on me let me say that I have no Idea why I let her shoot that load for elk. It was a bad mistake that I take responsiblilty for. We hunt in Washington w/ lots of Elk , but LOT of hunters. Consequently , we try to shoot the elk through the shoulders to put them on the ground. My wife put 4 rounds(2 in the L shoulder 1 R shoulder & 1 straight on) at 100 yds. The last one finally went between a rib & got to the lungs just on top of the heart. had she been shooting what I am now recomending, I think we would have had a better experience. Hope this helps. Givens

[Daryl (deceased)]

givens6.
 
Actually, RJ did mention caliber.  The first sentence of his posts is "I split the difference in my '06 AI".  If you read more of his posts, he's been in on a couple of elk kills himself (he lives in the heart of some of the best elk country you'll find).
 
As far as your wife's experience with the 150 grain cor loct bullets, that's not all that uncommon.  I personally avoid the shoulders, and always have.
 
An uncle of mine shot a bull 4 times several years ago.  The first two shots glanced off the shoulder blade, the third broke the bull's leg, and the last got to the lungs.  He was shooting 175 grain premium bullets from a 7mm Rem Mag. His cartridge was plenty sufficient, but the angle of the shot was bad.
 
My dad recently had a similar experience with a bull.  He shot the bull in the shoulder with a .300 Win Mag using 180 gr Grand Slam bullets.  They tracked that bull for a lot of miles before he got another shot.  It was a slightly quartering shot, and the bullet glances off of the shoulder blade.
 
The shoulder shot, of course, CAN work well enough, but it's also a bit risky.  Square on shots at the shoulder with good bullets in a hard hitting caliber will most often break the shoulder, but any kind of glancing angle can cause some problems from what I've seen; especially with a large, heavy boned bull.
 
Personally, I use 145 grain bullets (either Speer BTSP's or Grand Slams) from a 7mm Rem Mag.  Sound light?  Maybe.  This same load has taken many deer, a couple antelope, several elk, a bear, and three buffalo, and only one bullet has ever failed to exit for me.  Even a shot at a large bull buffalo, at a lazered 329 yards, shot completely through the chest.  The bullet that I recovered was from a finishing shot on an elk at around 600 yards.
 
But, I place my bullets carefully behind the shoulder, or occasionally I'll opt for a neck shot.  I've never lost an animal using this cartridge, and this is the load I've been using for the last 15 years or so.
 
It works perfectly for me, but like any other cartridge/bullet/load combination, the bullet has to be placed right to be effective.
 
Daryl

[MountainMafia]

I have taken a number of elk with the "old manufactoring style" 150 grain Nosler partition in my 30/06 without any problem. But when Nosler started to make the 165 grain Partition (years ago), I switched because of better ballistics. I had equally good success. I push the 165 grain Nosler with 51 grains of IMR4064. As has been said by the others, bullet placement is the key to good clean kills.

[BeaverJack]

Kinda what the rock said. Depends on the caliber. A 150 out of my 7 mag, yes. Out of an '06 no.
 
RJ

Squares with me. With a .270, I'd opt for the Nosler 160 grain partition. Still a lil' on the skimpy side, but it will generally penetrate due to it being a long, tough bullet. Still you need to have a good shot and do your part. Even so, ribs can't be seen through the best german made scope, and animals are always apt to turn unpredictably just when the trigger breaks.
 
Broadside through the shoulders is my favorite shot over 100 yds.  Use enough bullet and it will take the bull down right now.  Angled shots make a difference.  I can't imagine a 7 mag 175 grand slam not penetrating, but I suppose it happens.

[teddy12b]

If I ever did get the chance to hunt elk I would use the 150gr Barnes triple shocks.  I know it's a lighter bullet than what most people would prefer, but that weight shoots the best in my barrel.  If I found a heavier bullet that was just as accurate I would of course go with that.