Making My Own 8mm Jacketed Bullets

[RatherBHuntin]

Paul,
You know I am in the same camp as you with explosive bullet expansion and their correlation to bang flops, and the lack of long trudges up hill dragging a carcass as heavy as me. I am absolutely convinced this bang flop is a product of the shock from energy transferring to the animal's nervous and circulatory systems, not from an exit wound ro even a wound channel, at least the permanent one.  The transfer is accomplished in large part due to the frontal area of the projectile.  
 
That said, the majority of the weight, and therefore the work performed will be done by the core, yes? Regardless of frontal area, if the weight is not behind it, there is no energy stored to transfer, the energy left with the weight(core).  What I have had happen, and what I am sure everyone has seen, is the core squirting out of the jacket and leaving just a tiny exit hole from the lead core. One of the reasons I dont like this is lack of a blood trail if it does run. Also, so much of the energy is not expended on the animal it seems the probability of a runner is increased.
 
So the question I am getting at is, are you concerned that the the core will slip the jacket without significant expansion?  If it does expand but still punches through, how much energy is lost and is that "too" much?  I am guessing a simple stack of phone books and measuring the bullet will answer much of this, but...have you considered devising a method of measuring kinetic energy transferred to the target?  Ok, so I had a couple of questions, you asked for them:laugh:    Is the ANVB core and jacket put together the same as a PowerPoint or Interlock bullet?

[gitano]

First to 22Hornet's comments on Nosler Ballistic Tips and my jacket's weight variation.

Nosler's Ballistic tips got a bad reputation shortly after they were introduced. Lots of whining about "blowing up on the skin", (THAT makes me CRAZY), and "too much meat damage". Nosler listened, and thickened the jacket walls and gave them a profile which progressed from thin at the nose to thick at the base. That is the form of Ballistic Tip we see today. While I didn't have any problems with the originals, the later version is a better bullet. Still... how dead is dead?

I would like the 'error' in the weight of ANY bullet I use to be less than 1%. In other words, if the bullet is supposed to weigh 130 grains, I don't want to see one that weighs more than 131.3 or less than 128.7. And frankly, compared to factory bullets, plus or minus 1% is A LOT of variation.

It is relatively simple for me to weigh and sort the jackets into 10th-of-a-grain batches. For example: 43.2, 43.3, 43.4, etc. I already know I can get the weighs of the cores to within a 10th of a grain of the target weight. Assuming that there is only a 10th of a grain of variation in the PTs,  (which would actually surprise me if it was that large), the variation in finished bullet weight should be smaller than two 10ths of a grain. Two 10ths of a grain out of 125 grains is 0.0016 grains, or 0.16 percent. That, I believe is achievable, and is "good".

RBH - While I do not in any way doubt your representation of a separated jacket "shooting through" an animal and poking a small hole on exit, and not making a significant wound channel, I have not personally experienced that. The only jacket core separations I can recall were on Remington CoreLokts from a .270 Winchester. Both the core and jacket were found in the animals, and of course the animals were dead.

I did absolutely nothing to bond the core to the jacket of the .50 Alaskan bullets I made, and I almost always found the two together even after they hit a rock. In the only animal I have taken with those bullets, the bullet passed completely through. Since there was only one exit hole, I assume they were still together on exit.

I think I will "section" one of the 130s to illustrate the internal configuration. Even if the jacket and core do separate, I don't THINK the core will fail to "mushroom" and stay in the big game animal. Before I section one and take pictures, let me put to words what the inside of one of these looks like.

If you look at the crummy picture of the seated cores in post #136 of this thread, you will see that there are 3 'steps' in the profile of the bullet's  nose. The jacket wall makes up the forward-most step. Next is the step formed by the body of the core being "smashed" into the jacket. It is the level of the core in the jacket. The third step is the hole swaged to receive the tenon of the PT.

As the point is formed, the lead gets swaged together as the diameter of the point is reduced. This does two things. First, it forces the "body" of the core forward in the "nose" of the jacket.  There's nowhere else to go as the nose diameter diminishes. Second, the hole for the PT tenon squeezes in around the tenon, effectively "grabbing" on to it.

It is my opinion that upon impact, the PT is going to get driven back into the body of the bullet, accomplishing two things. 1) Starting the process of opening up the jacket's "hollow point"., and 2) driving the tenon of the PT back into the core starting the process of "opening" the core up too. I can't really imagine how these cores could fail to "open up" or "mushroom" even if they separate from the jacket.

That's the theoretical assumptions. When I get my hands on 32 large-format phone books, we'll have a better idea about how good an assumption that is.

Paul

PS - By the way, the design of the Speer 115 grain, 7mm, and 130 grain .30 cal are "wimpy" in comparison to the ANVB. The jacket walls on the Speers are 0.012" at most, and there is no 'special' formation of the 'hollow' inside the point of those bullets, and you and I KNOW how they work! Honestly, I am more 'concerned' about this bullet being "too" tough. I'm hoping the high impact velocities make the thing behave something like an Accubond or what used to be called a Solid Base Ballistic Tip. We'll see.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

but...have you considered devising a method of measuring kinetic energy transferred to the target?

There is a known mass and velocity which will furnish an energy figure.
If the bullet is captured by the 'target' that would equal 100% 'transfer' n'est-ce pas?
The difficulty would be measuring the transfer loss of a pass through unless the target was arranged on a sort of ballistic pendulum / load cell arrangement.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Joe, the most aggressive flux I know of is zinc chloride, is that what you are wanting?
Likely the best bet would be to find an old plumber and see if he has some left over.
I have tub of a very aggressive paste flux, but it is at least 35 years old, though it still does the job and I still have a squirt bottle of zinc chloride, too.
The US is over to 95-5 for all plumbing but 50-50 and electronic 60-40 rosin core are still available.

Thanks, I will look out for some!
Unfortunately we only seem to have 'new' plumbers and they know (Exp. deleted) about soldering - in fact we can include 'plumbing' in that as well....

What is the world coming to?

ETA:  Bakers fluid contains the magic stuff, that is still available!

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Yup Bakers fluid #3 contains the Zinc Chloride...
Have a litre now!

[gitano]

With respect to using, (no hope of getting any in Alaska I am afraid), it still means melting the core, right?

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

With respect to using, (no hope of getting any in Alaska I am afraid), it still means melting the core, right?

Paul

Yep, still melting the core but trying to achieve an easier 'bonded' core.
As I mentioned before I was hamstrung a little with the modern flux 'alternatives'.
Now I have a bottle complete with the 'skys falling' warnings...
I cannot completely put the bonded core to rest until I have produced something that I'm happy with - have furnace will play...!

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Actually Paul, you can get your paws on some....

[Jamie.270]

Paul, (and anyone else)
Look for Forney welding/soldering products, or get a hold of McMaster-Carr.
They market a flux called "Ruby Fluid" which contains Zinc Chloride.
Paste or liquid.
http://rubyfluidflux.com/

MSDS for RubyFluid:
http://rubyfluidflux.com/uploads/Rubyfluid_Flux_MSDS.pdf

Many ACE Hardware stores carry Forney products, and they should be able to order you some if they don't have it on the shelf.

[gitano]

Thanks, Jamie.270. There is an ACE Hardware in Wasilla.

In the end, I still have to melt the cores, and I just have a basic aversion to that. Regardless of the hole in the bottom of my jackets.  

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Dilute Hydrochloric acid and dissolve some zinc in it until it will dissolve no more, hey presto, Zinc Chloride acid flux...

Thanks Don, for making me look it up! Lazy git that I am...

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Yeah, that hole in your bottom could be a problem...

[gitano]

Hawk Bullets have the hole in the bottom, and they get rave reviews on their bullet's terminal performance. Either they have solved the problem, or they don't "bond" their cores.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

As noted before, I do not think the bonded core is much more than bells n whistles, but I like to experiment and have the facility to do so.

[gitano]

I THINK the "dead soft" PURE copper jackets of the Hawk bullets may mitigate the NEED for bonding the core to the jacket. Also, in general, they make "heavy-for-caliber" bullets for big calibers. As such, they will have lower impact velocities than light-for-caliber bullets in smaller calibers.

Paul