Range Report - .338 WM - Ruger M77, Sauer 90

[gitano]

I like precision, and I like precision tools. I don't like precision to render a tool "finnicky". In other words, always fiddling with tool instead of using it. That seems to be the case here.

The action on the Sauer isn't just the smoothest I have ever felt, it's WAY smoother! Everything about the craftsmanship is excellent! Clearly it's capable of better-than-needed 'accuracy'. Seems like they made the bolt either for "factory" ammo or "stand by for not working". Until now, I thought the bolt with the cam-out lugs was pretty cool. Now, not so much.

Paul

[farmboy]

To bad I could not pour you a nice scotch.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

I don't think that there is anything particularly 'finicky' regarding the 90 bolt compared to a turnbolt.
The cartridge simply  has to fit the chamber regardless of make and model of rifle.
I have had a similar problem with my .22-250 (Rem 700) some cartridges would chamber others would not, after much head scratching, swearing and checking I realised that the Redding die had to have a minimum of .002" removed - I took off .004" (gave myself a little 'wiggle' room) the problem has not returned, oh and that baby shoots 'bug holes'.


http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17605&highlight=sauer  Link to thread with the bolt strip info, step2 here;

See those little cam pins on the rear of the lugs? That is why you do not horse the bolt down! Ever notice how short the bolt handle is?

I understand the frustration but bear in mind that this rifle is essentially a straight pull, it is not a turn bolt that you can bubba the bolt closed on ill fitting cartridges with a lump hammer.

Ultimately this is purely a hand loading problem where the overlap of tolerance* comes into play, simply put the chamber tolerance and reloading die tolerance have added together to cause you much pain, it never was a problem of a finicky Sauer 90 bolt.
You may have hit the nail on the head regarding its use with factory ammo, but all that says to me is that you have to build your ammo to factory dimensions, not to another rifles chamber.
I do this for my 243's to ensure compatibility - I need the ammo to work when I travel up to Scotland so that I have not wasted a 800 mile round trip.


*Tolerance issues can also be the difference between CIP and SAAMI just to add to the grief.
You get acquainted with this type of situation in engineering early on in life!
I can guarantee you there is as much variation in the dies by company as there is chamber variance in the rifles - no one makes the 'perfect chamber' same as no one makes the 'perfect die' that is why these little trials exist.
I would really love to see the SPC data on a die production line.

BTW -

My concern is that the problem here is the resizing die setup as it  relates to the Sauer's headspace. I can NOT get the case's headspace any  shorter with this die and this shell holder. I will have to find a  shell holder that has a 'thicker' base OR put the die in my lathe and  take some metal off of the bottom of it. C'mon! Can I do it? Sure. I shouldn't have to!  I really don't like a "go/no go" bolt when the "no go" is a matter of  single digit THOUSANDTHS of an inch of a COMPRESSIBLE BRASS CARTRIDGE  CASE!

Do you see what the knicker twisting has done? Of what use is a thicker shell holder in this case?
On that note I think that it is only Redding that offers an oversize shell holder, but that is for the bench rest n̶u̶m̶b̶   *cough* competitors that need to feel the crush - as you pointed out the tight chambering would be of little benefit to a hunting rifle - specially if there was a little poop around.
'Shouldn't have to', there are :cens: loads of things that I shouldn't have had to do in life. Call me 'Underwhelmed' (thanks Rick).

Now go and have a slug of the good stuff n calm down son, you are beginning to get as cranky as me now....  

:drama:

[gitano]

Most of your comments would be "spot on" EXCEPT for those little nibs at the back of the lugs. (Great picture, by the way!) With other bolt guns that have ROUNDED CORNERS on their lugs, SMALL differences in cartridge dimensions are accommodated. And in fact, for those that want a slight 'crush fit' of the cartridge in the chamber, the rounded corners of those type lugs facilitate that. Those nibs eliminate it.

Furthermore, there's NO "tolerance" here. Period. It's absolutely "go/no go". For a bench gun, fine. For a hunting arm, not fine. For a combat arm, a fatal flaw. (I know it's not ever been intended as a combat arm.) THAT'S what's got my knickers in a knot.

You misunderstand the "thicker" (or thinner, for that matter) shell holder. There is slop (imagine that, DESIGNED to ALLOW for some VARIANCE), in the dimensions of the SLOT in the shell holder. Were the BASE of the shell holder "higher up" - AKA "thicker" - relative to the top of the shell holder, OR the upper lip of the shell holder thinner, the case could move farther into the die. If the slot for the rim were very tightly spec'd (making it useful ONLY for "factory" ammo), it would simply be another "go/no go" 'tool'.

I'm well aware that I can 'fix' this. What I don't like is having something else to have to worry about in a HUNTING arm. Either I make the case "sloppily" short so I don't have to WORRY about the fit, (NO hope of a 'crush fit' in this rifle), or I risk environmental conditions, (like heat/cold), pushing the "machine" or the cartridge 'out of spec'. Never had to concern myself with that in a lifetime of hunting. Now I do. Rationalize the design as you wish, I do NOT like that.

A hunting gun that doesn't "work" is a relatively small issue in most places in the world today. Alaska is not one of them. It remains common for me to travel by plane or boat or many-mile snowmachine or ATV ride to get to where I hunt. A firearm that flat out doesn't work because of "tight specs" that can be affected by environmental factors, is a concern I could do without. The Sauer 90 is a "gentleman's" rifle. Now I know. As I said, it takes some of the 'shine' off of it for me.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Most of your comments would be "spot on" EXCEPT for those little nibs at  the back of the lugs. (Great picture, by the way!) With other bolt guns  that have ROUNDED CORNERS on their lugs, SMALL differences in cartridge  dimensions are accommodated. And in fact, for those that want a slight  'crush fit' of the cartridge in the chamber, the rounded corners of  those type lugs facilitate that. Those nibs eliminate it.

Yes a standard turn bolt will accommodate a crush fit, the point that you appear to miss is that the Sauer 90 is NOT a turn bolt - It requires the ammo to fit the chamber correctly - it is purely a handloading issue, end of story.

Those 'nibs' are to deploy the lugs into the receiver, they cannot be compared to the helix ground on the lugs of a conventional turn bolt - Apples n Oranges.
I expect most people do not really see how this action works at the end of the day.

You may want to research Blaaaaser rifles and hand loads a similar problem exists on poorly assembled ammo although the lock system is different it still requires correctly assembled ammunition to chamber without  problems.

[sakorick]

What j0e is saying is that the lugs on the Sauer bolt are in the rear, not up front. They flare out when the bolt is closed....see picture. That button on top of the bolt handle is a clever bonus as if you press it with the safety on, it allows you to open the bolt, otherwise the bolt stays locked. Another cool feature is the chrome pin that pops out when a bullet is chambered. Located on the left side of the action it provides an instant confirmation of a chambered round and can be felt in the dark of night. When the cartridge is removed the pin retracts back flush with the receiver.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

The point is Rick that the lugs on a 90 are simply not designed to lever ill fitting ammo into the chamber, once that is understood and attention paid to building your ammo there are no 'problems'.

[gitano]

There isn't anything I don't understand about the operation of the bolt, or the "fix". I don't "pay attention to building my ammo"? Really? I have an unfriendly, non-THL-appropriate response to that assertion.

Nothing that has been said to rationalize this design "idiosyncrasy" changes my opinion one iota. The fact that is not in dispute is that the design is not as robust as other designs. The potential problems that idiosyncrasy creates are non-trivial and require the handloader NOT to "pay attention to detail", but rather to adjust their AMMUNITION to accommodate the firearm's DESIGN, not it's "specs". While to a certain extent this is true of every firearm and machine, the issue is NOT 'sloppy reloading', it IS that because of a DESIGN characteristic, the firearm WON'T WORK if a dimension of the ammuntion is as little as 0.005" OR LESS out of IT'S SPEC.

Please don't try to tell me - agian - that the problem is "poorly assembled ammo". It is not. The problem is a design characteristic that prevents operation of the firearm when a tolerance THAT CAN BE AFFECTED BY ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS, not "poor assembly of ammo", causes complete failure of the firearm. Most reasonable people would call that design "characteristic" a FLAW. I have refrained, until now, from using that pejorative term because it lends a certain tenor to the conversation. However, I think we're past "gentlemanly conversation" at this point. You "like" the Sauer and are willing to turn a blind eye to a design fault and blame the user instead of the design. I like the Sauer, understand the design and what is required of the reloader to use the firearm, and do not.

European hunting is very "domesticated" and "gentlemanly".  Alaskan hunting is not. If it doesn't work, you're screwed.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

We will have to agree to disagree I'm afraid.

[farmboy]

I think you are both right in my opinion it highlights the differences between European and north American manufacturing.

[gitano]

I can do that.

Paul

[sakorick]

Guns are like women, some beautiful, some plain and some common. However, their looks have zero to do with their functionality! My Sauer 270 is case in point. It's good looking and it works great......no problems at all. My 300 Win Mag is even more beautiful that the 270 but it has been a constant struggle. Some of these just require an extra measure of patience to solve.

[recoil junky]

I gotta side with Paul on this one because nobody else will.

I've been in his boat before and knowing with absolute certainty that my ammo was assembled correctly, I could prove that it was the fault of the firearm even though it would chamber factory ammo, it WOULD NOT  re-chamber it's own once fired ammo every time, for a reason (maybe) different than Paul's I don't know. This was for an original 03-A3 that had only ever shot military ball ammo and "we" were trying to load for it. Come to find out the chamber was enough out of kilter (bore to chamber) that unless you got the once fired brass lined up almost perfectly (within say 10 degrees) in would not re-chamber.

If people say that you can't put once fired ammo back into the chamber it came from without any sizing (in 99.99999% of the cases) I say they are full of :cens:. If it won't go right back in, there's summat wrong with the weapon. I only neck size unless it's some brass I picked up at the range. I've got (.223) brass that's been loaded and fired at least 15 times and it's only ever been necked sized (and trimmed) and it fits every time.

I think there's summat wrong with the rifle, that's what I think.

RJ

[gitano]

Thanks for the moral suppor, RJ. I know it was tough. :)

Taking 0.015" off of the mouth of the die has solved the problem.

I have to check the recesses into which the lugs expand and see if there isn't some little burr or something there that is still causing an almost imperceptible 'catch'. Formula 1 race cars are nice, but you need a team of experts to keep them running right. Sauers aren't quite Formula 1 race cars, but they're not Remington 700s either.

Paul

[farmboy]

This thread brings up a thought I had about dies. Why do the die makers sell small base dies?  I had a blr in 308 that would not chamber ammo loaded on bonanza bench rest dies bought a set of rcbs small base dies problem solved also had the same thing with a savage 99 in 243 I had to buy a set of small base dies. My question then is do the standard dies not resize to factory specs? If not how come they don't? A full length sizind die you would like to think brought them back to factory spec. The small base dies are to be used in guns that don't have the camming action to chamber rounds. So they are recommended for lever guns and semi autos.