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Yesterday I was test firing 12 different loads I worked up for a model 12 heavy 26" barrel synthetic stock Savage with a 6 x 18 Burris scope. It is an older used gun that I traded for this winter. Each time I shot a 5 shot group the first shot was 3" low followed by a four shot group that would be around 1".  This happened every time, including the initial sight in before I started. I was firing the groups in rotation with 3 other guns. I was trying to let the guns stay fairly cool as I do when I am out shooting varmints. Out of curiosity I followed up the final group with another group but gave the rifle a rest period of about half as long. This time the first shot was about 1 1/2 inches low. I am perplexed at this point as to what is going on. I lean towards a scope problem but was hoping for some other input from the diverse knowledge base here on the site.

Thanks for any input you might have. The gun seems to have potential after the first shot, I just need to figure out this problem.

I need some information again.  Can anyone give me a lead on the development of a 22 caliber cartridge on the 6.5 x 55 case.  I am sure it has been done, but have not found any info yet. Thanks NF

My 225 Win started to shoot patterns this year instead of groups.  My model 70 Win in 225 has been an excellent shooter with 55 grain bullets since it was purchased. However, I assume due to throat errosion from the number of rounds it has fired, I was no longer able to get good accuracy from the 55 grain bullets.  I decided to try some 60 grain Hornady bullets I purchased several years ago.  These bullets have brought my old faithful back to about 1.1 inch at 100 yards, maybe not great, but it will let me use the gun for coyote calling and casual varminting.  I will probably not use it for high volume praire dogging anymore, but it will be great to carry the old familiar rifle on calling outings.  Not much is left of the rifling either, but for now I am just happy to have the gun back in coyote killing form.  I know it sounds kind of crazy, but I can get real attached to a gun that I have had for awhile.

Does anyone have any information on whether the 338 win mag has been necked down to 6mm?  I have been unable to find any reference to this conversion and hoped that someone on this site might be able to help me. Thanks for any information you might have.

I recently became the owner of an interarms Mark X that is chambered in 22-250. The rifle shoots fine as long as the cartridge is placed directly in the chamber, however, it will not feed the cartridges from the magazine.  It either drives the cartridge down into the magazine or wedges it up into the top of the action. Having never been around this brand of rifle, I was wondering if this was a problem inherent to the model or does this particular rifle just have a problem.  I actually purchased the old rifle with scope to utilize the action to build a 224 clark, but now am wondering if the action type has some serious design flaws.  Any input and experience you all might have would be greatly appreciated.

[Remember, these loads are for my gun only and are for information only. They may not be safe in anyone else's gun.]

Over the last two weeks I have been testing loads for my 17 Remington. My current load consists of Remington brass, Winchester Small Rifle primers, 25 grains of H414 and the 25 grain Hornady hollow point bullet. I use an overall cartridge length of 2.170. This load has treated me well, but I felt compelled to try some different variations in search of better performance.
 
 
 
The rifle I used for these tests is a Remington 700 BDL with 24 inch barrel. Trigger pull is a crisp but heavy 4 pound 4 ounces. The rifle is unaltered in any way. The optic on the rifle is a 2.5 X 8 Bushnell ScopeChief VI.
 
 
 
My rifle range is laid out in such a fashion that all groups are fired at 125 yards. Due to the terrain, I used this particular distance between shooting area and target in order to obtain a point of impact at the target having the same elevation as the muzzle of the rifle. This does vary by plus or minus 9 inches depending on which target I am shooting at. Given the established range, if my calculations are correct, a group of 1.309 inches would be MOA.
 
 
 
I used a RockChucker press and RCBS dies. All loads were weighed individually on a RCBS balance beam scale. Bullets were seated with standard seating dies from RCBS. The brass used for the testing was all once fired Remington brass that had been purchased as factory loaded ammunition. All ammunition was of the same lot. After the factory ammunition was discharged at various varmints, it was processed as follows.
 
 
 
Primer pockets were uniformed, and the flash holes deburred. Brass was full length resized and then trimmed to 1.785 using an RCBS manual case trimmer. The mouths of the cases were chamfered inside and out. Brass was then cleaned in a corn cob mix. After final inspection, the brass was primed using the RCBS hand priming tool and WSR primers. Charges were weighed individually and Hornady 25 grain hollow point bullets were seated to give a COL of 2.170".
 
 
 
The purpose of these tests was to reevaluate my current load which utilizes H414 as well as look at two other powders, H4895 and Varget. The only variable that will be changed will be powder and weight. The following powders and charge weights gave the indicated group size. These were four shot groups at 125 yards. Remember, these loads are for my gun only and are for information only. They may not be safe in anyone else's gun.
 
 
H414 powder charges were 25, 25.5, 26, 26.5 and 27 grains of powder.
Group sizes were .727, 1.242, 1.101, 1.190, and .553.

Varget powder charges were 23.5, 24, and 24.5 grains of powder.
Group sizes were 1.461, 1.081, and 1.032.

H4895 powder charges were 22, 22.5, and 23 grains of powder.
Group sizes were .856, 1.07, and 1.372.
 
 
All of these loads appeared to show no signs of pressure in my rifle except the 24.5 grains of Varget. This load showed high pressure signs and will not be repeated. Overall the Varget seemed to be the most temper mental powder in my rifle. The H4895 loads show some real promise with three of the four shots in each group landing in groups of .452 or less, but the fourth shot opening the groups up to those posted. The first three shots using 22 grains of H4895 went into .225 and the fourth shot opened the group to .856.
 
 
 
Given the above initial testing, I will probably load ten rounds of the H414 in 25 and 27 grains as well as ten rounds with 4895 in 22 grains. I will shoot these ten rounds of each combination over my chronograph to obtain additional information.
 
 
 
Looking back over the data, I have two new loads to further research, but my old standby load of 25 grains of H414 still rules in my opinion. One of the most interesting parts of this whole test was the fact that when the groups were overlaid one upon the other, using the same point of aim, 44 shots using three powders and various charge weights all fell into a group that measured 2.75 inches. This in my opinion is good for a 44 shot group using one load, and great using eleven different combinations.
 
 
 
I hope this information will be helpful, or at least interesting to some of the members. The 17 Remington is a useful and fun cartridge, its charm lies in low recoil and high performance while producing amazing results. It may not be new, but it is still good.

Here is your chance all you bow hunting fanatics.  I have never had any desire to shoot a bow, but drawing a rifle permit in my country for deer has become a once in seven year affair. Since the stalk is most of the reason I like to hunt, I have decided to consider bow hunting.  I don't want to spend any more than $250 to get started.  I am not interested in all the latest and greates gadgets.  In fact I am considering getting a recurve instead of a compound.  I am an old dog, but I would like to learn some new tricks.  Is anyone out there willing to give me a little or a lot of advice?  I don't know what will come of it, but the best place to learn anything is from those who practice their trade.  If you would take time to share your thoughts with me, I would be very much apreciative.  I will check back periodically to see what you all have to say.
Thanks!

Do any of you have any experience with the Mauser actions sold by Charles Daly.  I would like to use them to make a couple of guns but I don't know anything about them.  If you have any information or first hand experience I would appreciate it.

Most everyone has had a 22 rifle in their hands over the years.  These guns have probably accounted for more fun than any other and have taken their fair share of game as well. Game of all sizes I might add.  My question to you is what is your favorite 22 rifle. I personally have three that I really like.  The first is a marlin model 60, the second is a ruger 10-22 and the last is the M77/22.  If I had to choose an overall favorite it would have to be the M77/22.  Its accuracy is simply amazing to me and it makes a great practice rifle that feels like my hunting rifles.  Too bad it has such a terrible trigger.  I have often wondered what it could shoot like with a good trigger.
 
Tell me about your favorite 22 and what you like and dislike about it and how you like to use it.  It seems to be a caliber that can bring back some great memories in all our hearts. Thanks for sharing!:rolleyes:

I have seen the term tossed around in this forum and others that I visited before I landed here.  Can someone please give me the definition for overbore?  It would seem that powder charge divided by the area of the bore would enter into the equation, but barrel length would have a tremendous amount to do with utilizing case capacity.  If a caliber is overbore, what standard barrel length is that based on, and what is the ratio of caliber to case capacity? How can a cartridge be overbore if it can utilize all the powder in the case in say a 26" barrel?Since 16" is the minimum legal rifle barrel length, wouldn't any cartridge that needs a barrel longer than this be overbore?  Why is a 25-06 considered overbore just because it needs a 26" barrel to fully utilize case capacity? All right, I've confessed my ignorance now lets have the anwers.

Why doesn't someone in administration either put a permanent post here telling memebers how to set up avatars or just come out and tell them that in order to get one they have to contact administration. Why has this been such an elusive topic. What is the big deal? If administration wants to approve the avatars just come out and say so other wise if we have all missed how to do it, give some directions. I have mine, but I wasted 4 hours over two days trying to figure out how to do it before I finally gave up and contacted those in charge of the sight. And before any of the moderators or administrators give directions they should log in as a regular user so they realize our options are not the same as theirs. As many times as the question has been asked it just seems like the right thing to do.

I would like to inquire as to who helped you get started with firearms and huntng?  For some reason I have always had a love for guns and firearms.  My mother tells me I was fascinated by them for as long as she can remember.  Unfortunately my father did not hunt or do any type of shooting.  From the time I was six I was begging for a rifle, and finally got one when I was about 8 or 9.  Nobody was around to help me get started and it was tough. Finally when I was about 13 a fella in town hooked me on center fire rifles and reloading.  He taught me a lot about guns and reloading.  I soon bought my own setup and was reloading on my own.  My parents weren't to happy at first, but I think they finally realized how much trouble it kept me out of.  I guess that's why I try to help people get started in shooting and firearms.  I remember what it did for me.  Tell me your story, I would love to hear about the self starters, the people with encouraging parents and grandparents, etc.  A good true story warms the heart and helps keep back the winter cold (10 degrees today).  Hope to hear from you! Thanks!

How about some thoughts on good smokeless powder cartridges that didn't make it.  Two that I use extensively would be the 222 Remington Magnum and the 225 Winchester.  Both these rounds offered great ballistics and great accuracy yet were unable to survive in todays fickle firearms world.  How about sharing some of the cartridges you use that didn't make it.  It might just give me a good excuse to go out and put together another gun.

I realize that I am a little old fashioned, but this is how I believe you should determine the HUNTERS maximum Point Blank Range. First let's determine the GUNS PBR.

• Find the true velocity of your load.  Not the hopeful velocity, not the speculated velocity.  If you don't have a chronograph, take the factory specs and subtract 50 fps for every inch your barrel is shorter than 26" and then subtract another 50 fps just to be safe. Or better yet go to a 300 yard range and shoot groups at 100, 200, and 300 yards and plot your rifle and load trajectory
  
• Determine your target area.  I use 3" for varmints, 6" for deer, and 8" for elk. You may choose numbers larger or smaller.  I use these numbers because I have no desire to wound an animal and then have to try and salvage a bad situation.
  
• Sight your gun in using the above information in combination with the information from the tables in many reloading manuals or programs. For example my 25-06 shoots 117 grain Sierra spire point boat tail bullets at 3000 to 3050 fps out of its 26 inch barrel.  At 3000 fps it has a PBR of about 290 yards given a 3" up and 3" down, or 6" target zone. So I sight my rifle 2.20" high at 200 yards to achieve this.  If you only have a 100 yard range you would sight in at 2.63" high at 100 yards.  I try to use 200 yards as this seems to give better results overall.
  
• Next consider the group size of your selected ammo.  If you are shooting 2" groups at 100 yards, you may well be shooting 6" groups at 300 yards. Without testing, you will never know for sure, but it is possible.  Given this you may actually have shots going an additional 3 inches lower at 300 yards. At the midpoint of the trajectory at about 145 yards your bullets could be going about 1.5" higher than your target area.  In practice your actual impact zone could be 4.5" high and 6" low due to the effects of group size. Considering a deer as the target, the 6" low shot at 290 might cause some grief. I am just bringing this to light to emphasize why I don't use bigger target areas to begin with.
  

We have now determined the guns PBR; unfortunately that is only part of the equation.  Next we will determine the HUNTERS PBR.

• First of all you need to define the hunting scenario as much as possible.  Are you going to be shooting from a stand, out of a blind, from a prone position, or are you upright and stalking.  Maybe you should assume a little of each.
  
• Next set up the appropriate sized targets at the ranges you will be shooting at.  If you are shooting from a blind or a tree stand, targets at 50, 100, and 150 yards might be appropriate.  If you are walking and stalking, 25, 50, and 100 might do the trick.  For hunting my area, I would suggest 25, 300 and 400 yards. More on this later.
  
• Shoot at the targets from the positions that you would if hunting. For example fully rested, prone, off-hand, or setting on a chair while twisting around to shoot behind you.  Sounds funny but I've seen it happen more than once to tree stand hunters.  In my area shots are often only of two varieties, the first is the 25 to 50 yard off hand variety when you kick out a good buck who manages somehow to hide in the short grass and sages until you end up right on top of him while stalking another animal. The next shot is one from 300 to 500 yards when you've run out of cover and the only thing between you and your quarry is flat and open terrain. This shot lends itself to a well supported shooting position with lots of time to dope the wind and make accurate range estimation.
  
• Try these different shots and keep track of how you do.  Your 300 yard rifle may only be good to 200 yards due to hunter error.  Point blank range is a wonderful tool, but it is only as good as the man behind the rifle.  Personally I have a harder time making 100 to 150 yard kneeling or off hand shot than I do 300 to 500 yard well rested and thought out shots.  
  

My main points in this long and possibly boring thread is first of all know your rifle and your load and know your rifles points of impact at different ranges. Second practice shooting before the season the way you may be shooting during the season. And finally let your skill determine whether you are about to take a good shot.  Don't rely on what you've read or what someone has told you. Instead rely on what you have practiced and what you know you can do.  After all we owe that to ourselves and to the animals we seek and take.

Whether you agree with me or disagree, I would love to hear your thoughts on this thread.  Thanks for reading and have a great day.

I just had my shoulder rebuilt and will have to lay off shooting my favorites for awhile (about 2 years).  My favorites have included the 243, 25-06, 7mm STW, 338 Win Mag, 35 Whelen and 458 win mag.  I may be able to shoot the 243, but the rest are probably out of the question.
Having missed deer and elk season this year due to the surgery, I would like to be able to go hunting next year.  I am therefore soliciting your sugestions on lighter recoil rifles. I would like to hunt both deer and elk next year.
 
I just recently traded for a 6.5 x 55 hoping that it might fit in the light recoil category. If anyone has any other suggestions I would really like to hear them.  
 
Thanks, NUMBERFARMER

Poly -- many, much, more than one
 
ticks -- bloodsucking insect that infests men

I am looking for good ideas to promote shooting. Following are a few of the things that I do to try and help the cause.  If you would share yours with me I would really appreciate it.
 
   I have done some simple shooting activities for other peoples family reunions.  At these events the participants shoot 22 revolvers at spinners and paper targets, 22 auto pistols at swinging pop cans and paper targets, 22 rifles at spinners at 50 yards, 222 at swinging milk jugs at 150 yds, stationary bluerocks with a 20 gauge semi auto and slow flying bluerocks with the same gun.  This summer I was able to involve approximately 25 non shooters in these events.  By the end of the events, I had 7 women who started the day as anti gun or very scared of guns asking their husbands if they could purchase firearms and find a range to shoot at.  They let me know that they had a whole new perspective on firearms.  What people don't understand is easily feared.   At these activities I provide all firearms and factory ammo.  I charge only for the ammo.  Each person is taken through in a one on one procedure so that safety is always maintained.  I must admit that the results have been above and beyone anything I could have hoped for.
 
  I also try to involve landowners in the shooting experience as well.  A little courtesy and a little time invested in sharing the fun of shooting goes a long way in developing support and relationships with this group.  Try taking them with you hunting, or take the time to set up and do a little practice with them.  It will usually be well worth your time.
 
  Try to find a young man with children who wants to teach his children about the shooting experience but just can't quite afford it.  A little money invested in a family like this can bring many to the support of the shooting cause.  With a little help I have seen whole families get involved and fall in love with firearms and the related activities.
 
  If nothing else, take a young father and his kids to a black powder shoot or some type of shooting competition and expose them to the competition and friendship that can be present at such events.
 
  My favorite is to teach young people the basics of reloading and the importance of accuracy and accountability.  
 
Just a few ideas and actions that have worked for me.  Please share yours so that I can glean from you and hopefully involve more people in our cause.
 
Thanks in advance!

I fire a few thousand rounds at praire dogs each year.  There are those in the Hunting world that tell me this is not right.  Their argument is that if you can't eat it or wear it, you shouldn't shoot it.  My argument is that they have destroyed thousands of acres of productive range land and disabled more than a few head of livestock.  When the dogs get bad enough they usually have to be poisioned in order to reclaim the land.  I operate as a varmint control agent for many people, (thats the correct lingo in order to shoot praire dogs in colorado) is there something wrong with shooting praire dogs, or is poisoning the little rats more humane. Or should I and others just take the economic hit and start a PDPZ (praire dog petting zoo)?
 
I would just like to hear your opinion, and what you base it on.
 
Thanks

I have a NIB Ruger Mk II 77R in 308 that I would be willing to sell for $425 delivered to your FFL where legal here in the lower 48 if anyone is interested.

After reading this forum with much interest before the crash, I developed a serious question. I would like to hear from others about the size of deer they have in their area. Let me know where we are talking about and how big the animals are. I am looking for some real time estimates. Before reading this forum, I never realized how much variation there was in the size of a mule deer for example.
 
Here on the eastern plains of Colorado we have mule deer that will push 400 lbs live weight, and white tails that will go over 300 lbs. I wonder are these small, large or just in the middle?
 
Thanks for looking, and its sure good to see the forum up and running again. Thanks for all the effort that's going into restarting and making it run.