Snails & Nails & Puppydog Tails and other such stuff

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Paul, about 3 years ago a person sent me a Lee mold for a 310gr RFGC .45, .452" bullet, it was dropping bullets that measured .450x .458"in diameter, He just wanted to get rid of it and I wanted to play with it.
I made a reamer that enlarged both drive bands to .459", all around.
The meplat is about 90% and the RN part is about 2R, so there is a very short taper before it is flat.
I left it a gas heck as I intended to get at least 1800fps or more in my Handi .45-70, actually got 2100fps but the best accuracy was at 1600fps, less than 1" at 50 yds opening up to about 1 1/4" at 2100fps.
I sent some to a friend in Florida, he wacked a pig at about 40 yds, said it looked like cutting the strings on a marionett.
He gave some to another friend who shot a deer at about 100yds, same thing, bang ,flop.
The deer was shot with a load speed of 2000fps, the pig at 1600fps, mv's , of course.
I have tried it on a spoiled cantaloupe at about 25yds, better than a blender!
This is not on the subject of low and slow, but is on the subject of terminal performance with a medium speed, very flat bullet.
I was one of the ones who got round holes from the SSS, very warm here, the rifle was a Win. 67, a very good shooting rifle series.
It grouped about 1" at 50 yds, but the group was about 6" to the right and 1" lower than the group with 40gr HS.
A factory round that is just supersonic and has a very short, flat bullet is the ,44-40. A very proven game killer over 137 years old and still knocking them down.

[gitano]

I was one of the ones who got round holes from the SSS,

You were one of the ones I was referring to for sure, Don.
 

A factory round that is just supersonic and has a very short, flat bullet is the ,44-40. A very proven game killer over 137 years old and still knocking them down.

You've made a convert of me, Don. It's your suggestion of the .44-40 that has the Collath shooting those cartridges with your bullets. I REEELY like that cartridge. It's one of three -the .45 LC and .44 RM being the other two - I genuinely 'like' for both revolver and rifle.
 
If you've got one of the bullets from that mould you modified and could post a picture of it or them, I'm sure I'm not the only one that would appreciate it.
 

...on the subject of terminal performance with a medium speed, very flat bullet.

Ayup...
 
"Low and slow" isn't for every hunting situation, nor for everyone, but... It DOES have far more Hunting applications than it is given credit for.
 
Are you still shooting the SSS?
 
Paul
 
PS - I found a picture of a bullet from that unmodified Lee mold. It does indeed look like a FBK. BC according to Lee is .218. I've found Lee's estimates of BCs to be pretty darn close to what I have observed in actual use.
 
Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Yep, the friend I sent the first examples to called it the beer keg, then changed his mind due to the forum rules and called it the nail keg, really not much difference.
I was cleaning my desk some today and found a 5 shot target I shot with my handi rifle 50 yds 1700fps+-, 2x scope, 4 holes in 5/8 by 3/4" and a 3" to the left hole, shot #3, and I labeled it "how to mess up a good group with an involuntary muscle spasm".
Unfortunately I am having more of them, just the other day I  jerked and sent a cup of coffee across my lap.
Getting shaky in my old age.
No, I do not shoot the SSS, the last time I saw some, they wanted $60 for 500 and the Mossburg self loader I would have to shoot them from did a 4x5" group at 50 yds with the SSS.

[TackyDriver]

"Finally, I really try to keep the "KISS" principle front-and-center in most of my designs. Both of the above solutions make me 'nervous' relative to "KISS"."
KISS is good. Analysis Paralysis is bad. It is better to roll with what you have. Once you've gone around the block a few times with Mark 1 Mod 0, then you can try other things. I think your pressure problem is the main concern right now.

"Regarding the shotgun slug, that design (pointed either way), would seriously mess with the Center of Mass/Center of Form relationship, which is where this whole 'thing' started." As long as you shift the Center of Mass forward, relative to the Center of Form (Aerodynamic Center), you shouldn't have to worry. There are Forster type slugs with the wad permanently attached and the Minie' Bullet had a cavity in the keester end. Both of these things shifted the center of mass forward of those respective projectiles and they both have a rep for good stability at low velocities and spin rates. Unfortunately, I've shot neither. I'm going to try some of those slugs in the Mossberg goose gun as a preliminary step. Does anyone remember who makes them? However, your calculations on the FBK show it to have good stability so I go back to my statement in the paragraph above.

Whatever else you learn from all of this, I hope above all that you have fun!

[Nelsdou]

Had an interesting day at the range trying out a couple of subsonic loads.

With the 9.3x57 I fired 4 rounds at paper set at 50 yds. Set up was 7.1 grains of Red Dot, 270 grain cast lead bullet lightly lubed with Lee alox/johnson paste wax mix and magnum pistol primers. No fillers. Got a real nice group 1 inch wide by 2 inch tall impacting the paper about 2 inches high and 2 inches left of point of aim. Paper was cut clean with no keyholing. The report is a loud POP about like a toy cap gun but no "crack". Next time I'll set up on 100 yards and see if the Husky has enough twist to keep a tight group. The barrel is a 14 twist which by my calculations is marginal for subsonic. As expected, the POI was right of POA as I've seen this in other load developments; as I jack up velocity the bullets migrate from right to the left. Pretty happy how these came out, the heavy bullets smack with a good amount of momentum at 50 yards, gotta see if they travel true to 100.

Things didn't go so well with the 6.5 Carcano with the 170 grain cast bullet. Fired 3 and noticed they were real quiet, had to check the bore each time to make sure the bullet exited. Sure 'nuff, the 4th bullet didn't. Stuck near the muzzle end. Luckily for cast bullets, a cleaning rod tapped it out easily, but I quit the session on that note anyway.

Realized by basing the load on QL, I hadn't taken into account the extrodinary long bearing surface of the "Cruise Missile" and the load needed more omph. And the twist is much faster, about 8. Also the small bore became fouled quickly from the bullet lube and powder residue at such low velocities. I've noticed this too from shooting 22 CBs, but it didn't click until I pushed the gunk out of the Carcano barrel. Anyway, I was going to write off the Carcano from shooting subsonics until I checked the target. All three rounds hit the paper at 50 yards about 12 inches low from POA but in a tight cloverleaf!

I'll hafta give the Carcano another go but increase the charge a bit. Here is a pic of a 9.3 bullet and the "Cruise Missile" that I tapped out of the Carcano barrel.


The Carcano bullet is only lightly engraved. Proof the load is too low and certainly didn't bump the cast lead into the lands. Next time I will lube the Carcano bullets like the 9.3s, just a light coating of 50/50 alox and johnson wax, no need to fill the grooves. Another difference between the two bullets is the 9.3s I annealed and air-cooled so they are fairly soft. The Carcanos are water quenched hard because of their "slenderness" and are apt to easily bend.

From a hunting standpoint, the 9.3 is in the lead (no pun intended) over the smaller 6.5. I'm convinced the 9.3 would do in a deer sized animal at 50 yds but I gotta see which can reach out to 100 yds accurate wise.

Nels

[gitano]

Interesting observations Nels.
 

As expected, the POI was right of POA as I've seen this in other load developments; as I jack up velocity the bullets migrate from right to the left.

Hmm... What are your thoughts on the reason for the shift?
 

the heavy bullets smack with a good amount of momentum at 50 yards,

:)
 

gotta see if they travel true to 100.

and

but I gotta see which can reach out to 100 yds accurate wise.

Why do you think they might change from 50 to 100?[/SIZE]
 

From a hunting standpoint, the 9.3 is in the lead (no pun intended) over the smaller 6.5.

The 9.3 would certainly get my vote if I had one, but that should come as no surprise.
 
Since you had to tap one of the Carcanos out of the bore, and you said:

The Carcano bullet is only lightly engraved. Proof the load is too low and certainly didn't bump the cast lead into the lands.

Is the gas escaping by the bullet? If you were to slug the bore with one of those bullets, would it fill the grooves? If it wouldn't fill the grooves by being pushed through by a stick, I'd be concerned that considerable gas would blow by even before the entire bullet was in the bore. At low pressures, this might be a considerable amount of the gas available.[/SIZE]

Speaking to the fouling; would a gas-check help in that regard? Maybe a GC isn't an option with the 6.5.

I wonder what the MVs were for both calibers.

Paul

[Nelsdou]

Paul,

In regard to POI shifts right to left, I've seen this mainly in the Husky and the Swiss K-31. Never really thought about it much as I never "dwelled" about shooting slow heavy bullets. My guess is longer barrel residence time and maybe shooting from my right shoulder has something to do with it. However, didn't see that effect with the Carcano.

Ha, right on, physics sez results at 50 should be consistent at 100 yds outside a change in elevation POIs. Amazing that for heavy bullets not that much energy is lost from muzzle to 100 yds despite the subsonic velocity.

Yep, the Carcano round is gas-checked. I'm not sure how representative that stuck round is for drawing conclusions from due to the heavy fouling in the barrel by the 4th shot. It was pretty heavy and gooey. Looks are deceiving.  I cleaned up the gunk of that bullet and it was engraved better than it looked.  The bullet sized down from .269 to .267 from the barrel grooves and the lands engraved into it .257.  Like I said, I'm going to light lube. Probably if shooting a bunch of these, also swab out the barrel occasionaly.

MVs? The range time I had was pretty windy so I was shooting by "ear" to tell if I was subsonic or not. My session was more of a "is it feasible?" than anything else. If these work out to be as accurate as I think they might, I'll clock 'em and push them up to the sonic barrier. Which here could be around 1000 fps or so.

Application-wise I can envision the merit of hunting in the near-urban small farm environment with subsonic loads. Nice to have something more than 22 CBs and yet not rattle the neighbor's windows.

Nels

[gitano]

Sounds to me like you're on top of everything. Good to hear about the engraving on the "Cruise Missile".
 
I wonder if the fouling is a function of the powder burning "dirty" due to low chamber pressure? I know that there is incomplete combustion at atmospheric pressure, but I don't know what the pressure threshold is to get complete burning. I'm suspect it's different for each powder. Have you fire-lapped the Carcano? Maybe that would help??? I'm not sure why though.
 
"Not rattling the neighbors windows" is a goal I seek as well. I'm hard onto the 12 ga FBK. I'm actually ready for test-firing. I just have to make up a few FBKs. I'll try it smooth-bore first, but I've ordered a rifled choke tube. I would order a rifled barrel for my Mossberg 500A, but I can't find one 30" long.
 
Please keep us posted on your progress with these SS loads.
 
Paul

[Nelsdou]

One last go-'round with the subsonic 9.3 and 6.5 rounds. Had a brisk cross wind gusting from time to time so it was a good opportunity to see if wind pushed subsonics around.

The 9.3 loads (270 grain cast bullet)  reached out to 100 yds and cut the neatly.  Have to use a fair amount  of guesstimation on hold over and a good amount of variance vertically at that distance.  Wind didn't seem to be much of a factor.

The 6.5 cast bullets (170 grain) showed slight key-holing in the paper at 100yds and not such a great group either.  Despite having high section density, the bullet is marginally stable at subsonic velocities.  Maybe the cross wind contributed to the long bullets starting to wobble, but I doubt it.

For me, I'll set a batch of these 9.3 subsonics aside and appropriately marked for that opportunity where full power and sound blast is prohibitive.  Without a lot more practice I'd keep these to 50-60 yards effective range.

Nels

[gitano]

Have to use a fair amount of guesstimation on hold over and a good amount of variance vertically at that distance. Wind didn't seem to be much of a factor.

Interesting. I wooda guessed just the opposite - pushed around by the wind, and pretty tight vertically. Shows how my guessing is going lately. I s'pose the vertical distribution could be due to variable MVs as a result of relatively low % of the cases being filled with powder. I don't recall whether you were using a filler or not.[/SIZE]

Anyway... 50-60 yds isn't 'bad'. Lotsa critters killed from blinds at ranges considerably shorter than that.

Paul

[Nelsdou]

Nope, no filler.

I think the heavy bullets and long barrel is definitely the approach to take.

Just a thought; going slow in a long barrel adds up to a fairly long residence time in the barrel.  Could it be the harmonics (not sure that's the right term) is pretty much dampened out by the time the bullet leaves the barrel?

Nels

[subsonic]

The longer the bullet is in the barrel, the more important technique is to avoid pushing the rifle with the trigger or other points of contact on the stock.....

[gitano]

Could it be the harmonics (not sure that's the right term) is pretty much dampened out by the time the bullet leaves the barrel?
 

That's what simulation reveals, and is my belief, Nels.

It makes sense to me, since we are all familiar with how waves dampen naturally in a cantilevered rod :) - a ruler held longways over the edge of a desk and 'plucked'.

However, after having thought about this quite a bit with respect to the FBK, I think harmonics, (to lump all of the barrel movement sources, except the human, together in one word), is a non-issue with regard to point of impact at short ranges, (less than 300 yds), and big around projectiles.

The maximum variation in movement attributed to barrel timing in a 24" barrel at 100 yds is about an inch and a half. For a .72 caliber projectile, that's only two bullet diameters. I'm pretty sure there are other bigger factors like Subsonic's note of longer time for the human element to act on the barrel motion, and variations in MV due to variable charge shape, that override the variations due to harmonic motion. That's my belief anyway, until I see some evidence to the contrary.

By the by... have you guys seen this? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_51/ai_n15402266/

and

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2007/12/18/quiet-shotgun/
 
and you (I) can get one here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=440176
 
I'm thinking FBK with rifled choke tube. :D
 
Paul

[Jamie.270]

What about using a shell casing that has the correct diameter in the ID of the case walls to accept a larger bullet like was done with the .44 auto-mag?
Take for instance the .222/.223 Remington cartridge, lop off the bottleneck, ream as necessary to the correct ID.  Then install a 200/220 grain SPT boat tail in 8mm/.323?   The seating depth could be used to achieve the correct case capacity.  A cannelure and crimp could be used to insure pressure development at the proper moment.  A twist of 8"-12" ought to do it.  These bullets generally have BC's in the .500 range and SDs of ~.300 so they should have great "whack" downrange.  The nose could always be shortened slightly to better emulate the FBK design, at some expense in the BC dept., but would increase the all-important meplat dia.
It would be straight walled like a pistol round, rimless, and short enough for decent self loader cycling.

[gitano]

What's your point/goal?
 
Paul