Cast .22 Bullets

[gitano]

Couldn't make up my mind where to put this, so I decided to keep it general and put it in "Reloading".

With the purchase of the two Anschutz .22s (Hornet and Match RF), the .22 Jet in hand, and shooting .22 pellets out of the Hornet, I thought I should just get a mold and make some 'pellets' - projectiles to be used in various rifles chambered in .22 caliber and intended for relatively 'slow' velocities.

I wanted something that would be appropriate mostly for the .22 Hornet and therefore, not too 'heavy'. I would have liked something in the mid to high 30 grains, but those get fairly universally bad reviews when it comes to reports on shooting them. Neither did I want to go to a 50+ grain bullet for the Hornet. I found a Lyman mold - 225438 - that throws a nominal 44-grain bullet. It looked good, and was also a gas check, so I parted with the $60-ish delivered. I got the mold yesterday, and the .22 gas checks also came in yesterday. Already having handles and a bullet sizing die in hand, I was pretty much ready to make bullets, so I made some today.



Without gas checks and made from clip on wheel weight alloy, they weigh 43.5 grains and are 0.225" in diameter right out of the mold. The sizing die spits them out at 0.2235" and with the gas check they weigh 46.5 grains. I'll assume that Lee's Liquid ALOX will add about 0.5 grains for a finished weight of 47 grains even.

I'm going to load up some Hornet brass with these aiming for a MV of around 1600 to 1800 f/s. I'll give a range report when I have one.

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Ooh a .22 mag. on steroids!
I suppose you mean 47gr.

[gitano]

I suppose you mean 47gr.

Yah.

More like a reloadable .22 Mag. A little extra oomph is fine, but not the primary goal. Since it's very difficult to get ANY RF ammunition except "shotshells", being able to reload is important. If I want extra power, I'll just load "full house" charges for the Hornet with jacketed bullets. Actually, I'm toying with the idea of a subsonic load, and I may make a hollow-pointing device akin to the one j0e_bl0ggs has made for his 225107 cast bullets.

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

The HP cast sounds as though it would be a rabbit and squirrel thumper.
A bit more weight than the a .22lr, most of the .22 factory hps are 35 to 37 gr.
I think I have a 30gr hp rf  cbl, but not sure, anyway, you are not going find any now.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

My mould is the Lyman 225415 which throws a 49 grain bullet with gas check and lube. (latest version apparently is 55 grain)

Here are all the parts needed for a 'hollow pointer' to use in a reloading press.
This allows consistent application of the punch depth.



L to R
357 expand die used to set punch depth
flat nose punch
Body die
brass flat nose punch
brass hp special punch - cannot think of the name
5 side punch
anvil for reloading press



BTW I like that 225438, nice looking bullet!
...

[gitano]

I forgot yours was a 225415.

I should make up one of those 5-sided HP punches and the kit. I don't recall, have you hit anything besides paper with a bullet that has the 5-sided HP? If so, what was the terminal performance like?  Lotsa meat damage? Same as usual? ???

The name of the "posted" HP is Hydro-shok. Those shot very poorly in my experiments with point-forming .22 RF bullets. The flats and 'classic' HPs did best.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Well you know, I'm not happy unless I'm tinkering...
As to terminal performance of the 225415, will have to wait n see when the Hornet is built.
22LR stuff on the small game, squizzers n rabbits was acceptable - basically stopped the punch through from solids.

[gitano]

I can see 'blunting' - a little - the 225438 and seeing how it shoots. Stopping pass-throughs is a goal.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

The flat punch which is slightly dished and then polished makes a nice 'nose'.

[22hornet]

Nice little .22 cast pills Paul. Are they as fiddley to put together with the gas check as everyone seems to say?
 
 Are you able to post pics of the HP set up ready for use? I'm really intrigued by this. All the other HP jigs I have seem have been a drill set up.

[gitano]

First, I've noticed no problems or challenges with installing gas checks on these. The bullet is small, so there is that, but I wouldn't have said there was anything particularly difficult or fiddley about it.

I'll put some pictures together of the HPing device and the outcome. I took the first pictures with my new cell phone, and they were pretty bad. I'll take a new batch and include the device as well. I'll do that later today.

Paul

[gitano]

So here are some pictures of my setup for making HPs from the cast bullets.

Here's the whole kit'n'kaboodle:

From left to right:
1) The die body - two parts:
 . . a) The upper which holds the point forming punch and provides the shoulder against which the collar on the punch stops, thereby setting depth of travel of the punch, and
 . . b) The lower part, which is designed to hold a .22 RF cartridge, but I use to hold the cast bullet.
2) The hollow pointing punch with stop collar. (Note tip.)
3) The three other nose punches:
 . . a) "Domed",
 . . b) "Hydro-shok" - AKA "posted hollow point",
 . . c) "Flat Nose".
4) A shell holder that fits in a reloading press. (Courtesy of j0e_bloggs several years ago.) Note the absence of a hole through which a spent primer would be ejected. This is used when the setup is installed in a press.
5) A threaded "anvil" (courtesy of drinksgin from several years ago), for screwing into a reloading press when one needs something to press against.

Here are the same items, viewed from "above".


Here's the anvil screwed into the press:


Here is the bottom of the two-part die body. You can see the recess cut for the rim of a RF cartridge.


Here are the top and bottom pieces of the die body. The left is the bottom of the bottom piece, and the right is the top of the top piece. Notice the recess into which the threaded part of the pointing punch goes.


Here is the assembled setup WITHOUT a bullet inserted. Were there a bullet in the die, the nose punch would be pushed up and the stop collar on the punch would be above the top part of the die.




Here is a picture of all of the parts laying on their side and loosely assembled so you can see their relationship. A RF cartridge is inserted in the bottom part of the die.

Note that the punch does NOT screw into the die. Those threads are for setting the depth to which the punch will be pressed or hammered. Those threads slide inside a recess in the upper part of the die.

This is a picture of a BULLET, not a RF cartridge, inserted in the lower part of the die.



Here's a picture of a cast bullet resting on the anvil in prep for the die being set down on top of it and the punch being hammered down into the bullet thereby forming the hollow point.


Here are some HP'd bullets and a Hornet cartridge with a NOT HP'd bullet in it. (I haven't loaded any HP'd bullets yet as I'm waiting to see how the unmodified bullets shoot before I try the modified (HP'd ones). Keeping the variables to a minimum.




Because the die was designed for HPing a RF CARTRIDGE, the lower part of the die has the diameter of a RF cartridge CASE. Therefore, after forming the HP in a bullet ONLY, I run the bullet back through the sizing die to get it back to 0.2235" diameter.

There ya go. Ask questions if you have them.

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Duh, where is the lube?

[gitano]

Well... for the most part, I don't use lube if I use gas checks, and I don't shoot bullets without gas checks.

I have NO faith WHATSOEVER in "lube". In my experience, it has done NOTHING to mitigate leading in the barrel, AND, when I give it considered thought, I can't see HOW lube - as it is applied to lube grooves - can POSSIBLY provide "lubrication" to a bullet that is SWAGED into a metal tube smaller than it's diameter for 24-odd inches. I can not believe lube in grooves isn't "wiped off" in inches. Second, the lube is going to be swaged into 'nothingness' as soon as the bullet obturates into the lands.

THAT SAID... I intend to use Lee's Liquid Alox tumble lube on these bullets. This is an attempt on my part to imitate the waxy lube on .22 RF bullets. I have little to no hope of actually reducing potential leading.

I believe that a person has two choices to minimize barrel leading when using lead bullets:
1) Keep velocities VERY low. Probably 1200 f/s or less.
2) Use gas checks. I think, and it actually MAKES SENSE - as opposed to "lube grooves" - that gas checks "wipe" the leading from the bullet in front of them.

I think if you use lead bullets, you're going to get leading to your barrels. Some of your actions can reduce the amount, but it can not be eliminated and trying to do so is futile.

I acknowledge that I am 'spitting' into a very 'stiff wind'. All the "experts" in the cast bullet world use lube. However, I have a question of all those "experts": Why are they ALWAYS looking for something that "works better" than what their thousands of man-years of experience insists "works"?

I anticipate scrubbing the barrels of the rifles I shoot lead bullets from.

If you want to keep your barrel from leading, don't use lead bullets. That's why "copper" jackets were invented.

Paul

[22hornet]

Great post about your HP set up. Very informative.
Now the questions.
Does the HP pin deform the cast projectile very much?
Is the die used to hold the projectile a straight .2235" like a Lee push through die?
I'm asking because I'm wondering if I get a HP pin made up to fit into a Lee sizer, which I already have, this might be a way to get it to work easily for me.

On the lube, and I am most certainly no expert, but when I have used unlubed projectiles they have leaded very badly very quickly. When I used lube, even cheap and easy LLA, the leading has been nil or very little.
I think once the leading starts, any leading, this will rip lead off the next projectile and things will get exponentially worse.
I have read of a cast shooter who uses unlubed pure lead projectiles in a .300 blackout and by all accounts it work very well.
I do know that bullet fit is important. I have shot some .314" projectiles in my No. 4 with the projectile seated out to engage the rifling and pan lubed and they worked very well. The same projectile sized to .311 and they leaded very badly.

All this talk has got me remotivated and I have ordered a Lee 185gn .312" mold which I will use in my .303, and when sized down to .311" in my .308 if all goes well.

 

[gitano]

Does the HP pin deform the cast projectile very much? "Very much" is in the eye of the beholder. If you compare the pictures of the unmodified bullets with the HP'd bullets, you can see the level of change. From my "beholder's eye", I see SOME difference, and because of that, I run the HP'd bullets back through the Lee sizing die after HP'ing. I seat the  HP pin only until its 'lip' just 'kisses' the tip of the bullet's nose. I'm trying NOT to get a 'flat'.

Is the die used to hold the projectile a straight .2235" like a Lee push through die? Might be 0.224" but I haven't measured it.

I'm asking because I'm wondering if I get a HP pin made up to fit into a Lee sizer, which I already have, this might be a way to get it to work easily for me. I think that is an excellent idea. If you were to do the HP'ing in the Lee die, the diameter would be "right".

On the lube, and I am most certainly no expert, but when I have used unlubed projectiles they have leaded very badly very quickly. When I used lube, even cheap and easy LLA, the leading has been nil or very little. What was the MV of the bullets in the above comparison?

I do know that bullet fit is important. I have shot some .314" projectiles in my No. 4 with the projectile seated out to engage the rifling and pan lubed and they worked very well. The same projectile sized to .311 and they leaded very badly. This is something that frustrates the hell out of me. How is one supposed to find that out other than by trial and error, AND no one has any rule of thumb other than "0.001 inch over groove diameter". Clearly this rule of thumb is essentially useless because MANY, just like you, point out that the size that leads least is significantly larger than 0.001" over groove diameter. What that leaves is purchasing sizing dies for EVERY caliber from nominal to 0.010" over groove in 0.001" increments AND THEN testing each one to see which one "works" AND THEN throwing away the USELESS ONES! Makes me wanna cuss just thinking about it. I HATE cast bullets. That's why I use ONLY gas-checked ones.

All this talk has got me remotivated and I have ordered a Lee 185gn .312" mold which I will use in my .303, and when sized down to .311" in my .308 if all goes well. Please don't let my frustration dampen that enthusiasm!
 
Paul

[22hornet]

I was loading 24 - 26gns AR2206H in my .303 for about 1600- 1800fps.
In the .308 I loaded 18gns AR2205 for about 1600fps.

[gitano]

Those seem to be the upper end of the velocity range for minimal leading with lube only. I've read a lot about people shooting a lot faster than that without leading (and gas checks), but I had no way to verify their claims, and others more experienced than I questioned them.

How often did you clean your barrels in the .303 and .308? When you did clean them, what did you use?

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

I am not a lot of help, I almost always use gas checks, the ones I do not use gas checks on are mostly below 1200fps, the exception being the Lee 405gr HP  which I have shot at 1300-1400 fps , with plenty of LBT soft blue or Lar's red, applied hot  and with a bullet of at least 14BHN.
I ALWAYS believe everything I am told!!!!!!!!!!!

:sarc:

[22hornet]

How often did you clean your barrels in the .303 and .308? When you did clean them, what did you use?

Paul

 I cleaned the barrels when I finished shooting, about 20 to 30 rounds. I simply used a wire brush, then an oiled patch like I always do. I like to keep things simple. :)