Vaccinations and "Experts"

[gitano]

Personally, I think ALL doctors that are ranting about how people that don't get vaccinated are putting people that do get vaccinated "at risk", should have their licenses revoked for being too stupid to have a license to practice medicine.

FIRST: How can a person that isn't vaccinated put someone that IS vaccinated "at risk" IF THE @#$%^&* VACCINE WORKS! To even say something like that is PROFOUNDLY STUPID!

SECOND: (Now that they have had to actually explain their stupidity) the medical professionals (experts) are saying, "Well, the vaccine is only about 92% effective." NO KIDDING! Then quit calling people that don't want get vaccinated "stupid". YOU are the stupid ones. That STILL doesn't make someone that doesn't get vaccinated a "danger" to those that do. Those that are vaccinated are either protected or they aren't. It isn't non-vaccinated people that put them at risk, IT'S CRAPPY VACCINES.

Third: Don't hold my feet to the fire on the exact numbers, please, but the in "Disney outbreak" if I remember correctly, there were 23 people that got measles at Disneyland. Of those 23, EIGHTEEN WERE VACCINATED! Even if the numbers aren't exactly correct, there were MORE people that got the measles that HAD BEEN VACCINATED than there were that were NOT vaccinated. IDIOT doctors!

Fourth: Since when does 60 people out of 350 MILLION make an "epidemic". THAT is EXACTLY what the IDIOT DOCTORS were calling the number of measles cases in the US prior to Christmas.  AN EPIDEMIC. SIXTY PEOPLE. ONE DEATH, and that death was because the DOCTOR SENT THE CHILD HOME. IDIOT "EXPERTS". Now I think we're up to 160. They've stopped calling it an "epidemic" BECAUSE THAT WAS TOO OBVIOUSLY STUPID. Now they're calling it an "outbreak".

Fifth: When I was a kid, back in the stone age, EVERYBODY got the measles. Darn few of us died. When I was a kid, there were supposedly five kinds of measles. Some kinds you could catch more than once. I had the measle SEVEN TIMES when I was a kid. As you can see, I DIDN'T DIE. NOBODY got "excited" about kids getting measles. The only people they "worried" about were pregnant women.

Finally: I don't have anything against vaccinations. I think vaccinations are a good idea. My children were always up to date on vaccinations. HOWEVER, THIS hysteria by the "experts" is NOT about "vaccinations". It is NOT about "health". It is NOT about an "epidemic". IT'S ABOUT CONTROL. GOVERNMENT CONTROL. You WILL take the shots we TELL you to take EVEN IF THEY DON'T WORK AND EVEN IF THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE OF SOME RISK IN TAKING THEM. YOU WILL DO WHAT WE TELL YOU.

Do you want to know why I think they are so "excited" about this? Because the "experts" got up on their high horses in the early 2000's and stated "We have wiped measles out of existence in the US. Measles is "extinct" in the US." As usual, pride comes before a fall. NOW, they're BLAMING people that aren't vaccinated for THEIR ERROR OF ARROGANCE. Have you ever heard of something coming BACK into existence after it's "extinct". Where are the do-dos? Where are the passenger pigeons? Where are the Carolina parakeets? Where are the Tasmanian wolves? ARROGANT IDIOTS!

Again, we have "experts" that are IDIOTS, and that the simplest of minds can see the ABSOLUTE idiocy of their logic.

"Expert" = idiot, whether it's a gun "expert" or a medical "expert".

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Woo, Woo and what is your real opinion on vaccines?
I did not have mumps, I did have the red measles and chicken pox, at the same time.
My GM and the Dr. about came to blows over what I had, unfortunately they were both right.
I did have some damage , my uncorrected vision went from 20-15 in both eyes to 20-30 left and 20-40 right, so I have worn glasses since I was 10.
Oh, well, some kids went blind from the measles.

:angel:

[gitano]

what is your real opinion on vaccines?

First, I don't have a problem with "vaccines", I have a problem with IDIOT "experts" that are too stupid to realize the stupidity of what they are saying. I have a BIG problem with "experts" ORDERING me to take INJECTIONS for the "public good". I have a BIG problem with "experts" publicly chastising people that don't buy their line of BALONEY, and engaging in a fear-mongering campaign.

Second, forum decorum prevents me from expressing my real feelings with all the Naval eloquence I paid to learn.

Speaking of IDIOT doctors, a couple of weeks before Christmas, I got an infection in my eye. This has been a chronic occurrence since I crashed a motorcycle on my 21st birthday. I 'rearranged' some plumbing in my face, and as a result, during hay-fever season or if I get something in my eye, I'm like to get an infection in my nasal-lachrymal ducts. Such was the case before Christmas. Since I had the "event" last summer, I was seeing an actual "doctor", not the optometrist that I have been seeing for the past 20 years. I went in to see the DOCTOR and told him I had an infection in my eye. Of course he reared up on his doctor high horse and promptly told me that HE - the doctor - would determine if I had an infection or not. He determined that I did NOT have an eye infection. When I protested, he told me that if the symptoms I described came back I should "send him a picture". Shortening this story, I'll just say "I agreed" to do that. I had to return to his clinic a few days later to get Caitlin's glasses, and I told the nurse that was in the room when I was told I didn't have an infection, that my eye was "bad" again. She was borderline rude and told me "The doctor said you don't have an infection. You just have "chronic dry eye"." I came very close to telling her to get intercoursed. I had to wait for three weeks for my optometrist to get back in the state after Christmas vacation. I spent 10 minutes with him. He prescribed what he has prescribed for the past 20 years - tobradex - and in less than 36 hours, the infection was gone. So because the "EXPERT" was too ARROGANT to 1) listen to the patient that had been dealing with a particular situation for FORTY-TWO YEARS and 2) consider that an eye infection COULD be more than just irritated conjunctiva, I had to be in pain for three weeks.

ANOTHER example of "expert" arrogance AND STUPIDITY.

Paul

[Jamie.270]

Sounds like a a couple of idiot doctors I've had Paul.
You see, I suffered with sinus infections for years.  It was (supposedly) a product of the environment I lived in, and the abuse I had subjected them to in my misspent youth.
I had asked my Dr more than once if the frequency (twice a year) might have anything to do with the fact that I still had my wisdom teeth, and he assured me that was not the case.

Then one day I moved, and had to find a new Dr.  I went in with my annual winter sinus infection and told him what I had, and like your Dr, he informed me that he would make the determination about whether or not I had an SI.
So, after I PAID the lab, he called and said yes, I indeed had a sinus infection, and asked which pharmacy I used, so he could call in the Rx.
After telling him which pharmacy, I asked if this could be related to my wisdom teeth?
"Nope, you probably have some scar tissue that's causing it" he said.

About a year later, an upper wisdom tooth started bothering me, so I headed down to the recommended oral surgeon to see about getting it removed.
They did the X-ray and I waited in the exam room afterwards for the consult and the appointment scheduling.
When the Oral surgeon walked in the first thing out of his mouth was the question,...  (wait for it)


"You have any problem with sinus infections?"


So, we shared a semi-friendly exchange about my GPs, antibiotics, and diagnostic standards, punctuated with moments of pseudo-rage from me, and I left with an appointment and soon had my WT removed.

That isn't the end of this tale however, as the next visit to my doctor, for something unrelated, was extremely short.  He informed me that he would no longer treat me after taking a call from my oral surgeon, and told me that I "shouldn't talk out of school about my diagnosis and treatment" with other physicians.
When I got home, I seriously considered sending him a bill for the education I had provided.

I found a new doctor, and have only needed an Rx for a sinus infection once or twice in the 20 years since.

My tolerance for medical arrogance is at least as short as yours, but I find that it gets me nowhere, so I occasionally pray that there's a special place in h-e-l-l for those sons-of-bachelors when they leave this earth.

[gitano]

Honestly, and without hyperbole, I would have found a way to sue the living day-lights out of that doctor. I've heard a couple of cases of doctors "firing" patients. It is difficult to contain my rage at such a "concept". FIRST OF ALL AH, YOU WORK FOR ME, not the other way around! Seriously, I would be so rude to a doctor that even suggested that they were "miffed" with me that it could easily escalate. I would, at the very least file a formal complaint with the local medical board. I know... they wouldn't not a thing publicly, BUT, the reality is that all those @#$%^&*ers are back-stabbers, and if one of them "gets" something on one of the other ones, it WILL get used against them in one fashion or another.

Was a time when "expert" actually meant something. Today, "expert" is a dirty word to me.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Our GP's are similar in that they complain about self diagnosis, my last visit with the:cens: did end impolitely with my line 'if you actually knew something I would not have to spend my time finding out what is wrong...' Obviously not the language used but the arrogant git did turn a rather nice shade of red and I sacked him along with a formal complaint which did not achieve anything.

[Jamie.270]

That's the part that frosts my buttocks j0e.  In the case of my sinus infections, I had them at least twice a year, and in some years of high pollen, or a bad forest fire year I might have 4 of them.
They were chronic and painful and the symptoms were both predictable and repeatable.
Anyone (doc) familiar with the frequency of them should have realized that I knew what the pain felt like, and what the discharge looked like.
It was freakin' ludicrous that I would have to argue with an idiot "expert" when I had experienced these multiple times over multiple years.  They were the definition of "chronic."
Kinda like Paul's eye issue.  Why the hell can't they just listen?

The other issue I always fought with the "experts" about was which meds to use.  For the first three years the doc would always Rx Erythromycin, (despite my objections) which NEVER worked, before finally giving me one for a penicillin nasty enough to kill the damned infection.

So I had the extreme misery of suffering through an additional 10-12 days of pain before he would actually help me.  IIRC the second Dr did the same, even though he had my medical records in front of him, and I explained my objection(s) to starting with the lesser efficacy drug.

[Jamie.270]

The one time I did go see a bonafide "expert"  about a sinus infection, it was an Ear/nose/throat specialist.
He Hammered that infection with the nastiest antibiotic I had ever taken.  I only had to take it for 3 days, and the pain was gone.
Unfortunately, that one was in the maxillary sinus.  Unfortunately it required an irrigation/flushing procedure when it re-occurred.
But that's a story for another day.  (It involves driving a very stout needle through your skull)
http://alexorl.edu.eg/alexorlfiles/DownLoad%20Lectures/Nose/Procedures%20&%20Operations%20on%20the%20Nose%20&%20%20Paranasal%20Sinuses%20%28Prof.%20Samy%20Elwany%29.pdf

I will say this about it, it was by far the most "unique" experience I have ever experienced in an awake state.  But there is no way to do it safely under gen. anesthesia, so I remember every moment of it.

But the guy knew what he was doing, gave me free samples of the antibiotic so I wouldn't have to pay exorbitant prices for them, gave me a significant discount on the procedure because I was self pay, and explained that he would just tell his insurance company to eff-off, because he was retiring in 6 months anyway.
The procedure was so successful, and his explanation of how to avoid them in the future so effective, I've never had another one.

So there are experts out there, one just needs to get lucky enough to find them.

[sakorick]

Whether or not you believe in Vaccinations for you or your children is a personal matter protected by the US Constitution. Military requirements are a different story. Here is the list:

                 Basic Training and Officer Accession Training
Adenovirus, Types 4 and 7 Air Force recruits receive adenovirus vaccination only when there is evidence of active disease transmission. Coast Guard Recruits only receive this when specifically directed by the Coast Guard Commandant.
Influenza. (Flu Shot) Navy and Marine Corps officer and enlisted accessions receive the influenza vaccine year round in basic training. Other service recruits receive this shot in basic only during the designated flu season (October - March)
Measles.    Measles Mumps and rubella (MMR) are administered to all recruits regardless of prior history.
Meningococcal. Quadrivalent meningococcal vaccine (containing A, C, Y, and W-135 polysaccharide antigens) is administered on a one-time basis to recruits. The vaccine is given as soon as practicable after in-processing or training. This vaccine is required routinely only for recruits, although its use may be indicated in other situations based on transmission potential and risk of contracting meningococcal disease.
Mumps. Measles Mumps and rubella (MMR) are administered to all recruits regardless of prior history.
Polio.A single dose of trivalent OPV is administered to all enlisted accessions. Officer candidates, ROTC cadets, and other Reserve Components on initial active duty for training receive a single dose of OPV unless prior booster immunization as an adult is documented.
Rubella Measles Mumps and Rubella (MMR) are administered to all recruits regardless of prior history.
Tetanus-diphtheria    A primary series of tetanus-diphtheria (Td) toxoid is initiated for all recruits lacking a reliable history of prior immunization in accordance with existing ACIP guidelines. Individuals with previous history of Td immunization receive a booster dose upon entry to active duty and subsequently in accordance with ACIP requirements.
Yellow Fever    Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard only
Routine "Booster" Shots while in the Military
Influenza (Flu Shot)    Annual, during "Flu Season" (October - March)
Tetanus-diphtheria    A primary series of tetanus-diphtheria (Td) toxoid is initiated for all recruits lacking a reliable history of prior immunization in accordance with existing ACIP guidelines. Individuals with previous history of Td immunization receive a booster dose upon entry to active duty and subsequently in accordance with ACIP requirements.
Yellow Fever    Navy and Marine Corps only.
Alert Forces (See Remarks below for definition of "Alert Forces)
Hepatitis A    Air Force Only
Typhoid    Typhoid vaccine is administered to alert forces and personnel deploying to endemic areas.
Yellow Fever    Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard (Navy and Marine Corps receive all receive this, regardless of "Alert Status").
When Deploying or Traveling to High Risk Areas
Hepatitis A    
JE Vaccine (Japanese B Encephalitis)    
Meningococcal    
Typhoid    
Yellow Feve.r Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard (Navy and Marine Corps receive all receive this, regardless of "Deployment Status").
When Required by Host Country to Enter
Cholera. Cholera vaccine is not administered routinely to either active or reserve component personnel. Cholera vaccine is administered to military personnel, only upon travel or deployment to countries requiring cholera vaccination as a condition for entry, or upon the direction of the appropriate Surgeon General, or Commandant (G-K), Coast Guard.
High Risk Occupational Groups
Hepatitis B    
Measles    
Mumps    
Plague. There is no requirement for routine immunization. Plague vaccine is administered to personnel who are likely to be assigned to areas where the risk of endemic transmission or other exposure is high. Vaccine may not be effective in the prevention of airborne infection. The addition of antibiotic prophylaxis is recommended for such situations.
Rabies. Rabies vaccine is administered to personnel with a high risk of exposure (animal handlers; certain laboratory, field, and security personnel; and personnel frequently exposed to potentially rabid animals in a non occupational or recreational setting).
Varicella    
When Deployed to Area Where In-Theater Commander Accesses a Biological Threat
Small Pox. This vaccine is administered only under the authority of DoD Directive 6205.3, DoD Immunization Program for Biological Warfare Defense.
Anthrax    This vaccine is administered only under the authority of DoD Directive 6205.3, DoD Immunization Program for Biological Warfare Defense.

Anthrax was the worst of the lot for me at least. I have also had a recent Tetanus, Pneumonia and shingles. I have had all these and never had a reaction. Washington gave the first shots to the continental army in 1777. At Morristown, New Jersey, in January 1777, Washington ordered a mandatory inoculation program for his troops (principally new recruits), if they had not survived smallpox infection earlier in life. At that time, our Army had over 5,000 soldiers infected with the disease and we lost the battle of Quebec due to a bad outbreak.

I have had good luck with doctors.....They saved my life on two occasions and without them I would have been at room temperature since May of 2003.

[gitano]

One must always be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath. There are skilled doctors, just as there are skilled gunsmiths. Not all of the skilled ones are arrogant sons of bachelors. HOWEVER, I no longer believe for a New York minute that "most" of them are skilled and "only a few of them" are 'bad apples'. I believe exactly the opposite.

For most of my life, I have considered doctors insignificantly different from well-trained, experienced, and skilled auto mechanics. If you walk into a clinic and there is a broken bone sticking out of your arm, most doctors can understand that you have a broken arm. Most of them, or their support staff can make a reasonable "repair". If you bring your car into a garage and the rear axle is laying beside it on the tow truck bed, most auto mechanics can tell what's wrong and fix it.

On the other hand, MOST DOCTORS ARE HORRIBLE DIAGNOSTICIANS. If you walk into a hospital or clinic and say "I don't feel good. I have a pain in my abdomen" Stand by for heavy rolls, because you're likely to get "the full treatment" of "diagnostic" tests. Which, more often than not are "inconclusive".

Something else I have been saying every since I "got into" the electrical engineering profession is that any electrical engineering firm that has been in business for more than 10 years will have at least ONE engineer on staff that everyone goes to when a complex design just doesn't work. The younger engineers have all of the latest training, and know all of the "rules", but when they just can't get the paper-whipping to actually work, they take the design to "that guy". Most of the time he will find the error in the design or realize that a "rule" is more like a "guideline" than the law, and get the design to work or know why it doesn't/won't. No engineering firm can survive more than 10 years without such a person on staff. Unfortunately, because of "health insurance", the same can not be said for a hospital/clinic. Hospitals and clinics can survive forever and have a staff full of blithering idiots.

One of the few skills I have ever 'laid claim' to was 'trouble-shooting'. When I was at sea on the USS Andrew Jackson and a piece of sonar equipment broke (extremely rare, as 'real' submarine sonar is ALL passive, and therefore doesn't have a lot of 'power' running around to break things), I was the guy they came and got when no one else could figure out what was wrong. It takes no special skills to be a good trouble-shooter. You only need two attributes, a strong streak of stubbornness (never say die to an inanimate object), and the ability to apply logic (if "this" doesn't work, then "that" has to be broken), to a 'puzzle'. Ask Sakorick about the shotgun I "fixed" (found a small part installed up-side down that operated the feed mechanism), while at his place last year and I'm no gunsmith. I'm just hard-headed and understand that if something mechanical doesn't work, something mechanical is broken.

Anyway, vaccinations USED to be "good", when they were "simple". Kill small pox. Kill polio. Now they are "designer" vaccines, with "acceptable" levels of mortality and morbidity. The cures are becoming as bad as diseases. And why is that? Because of greedy pharmaceutical companies and ARROGANT, STUPID, DOCTORS.

The "simple" vaccines are still "good" and from my perspective, it is unwise FOR THE INDIVIDUAL, to avoid vaccination based solely on the fear-mongering of the Press. HOWEVER, it is WRONG for the government OR the medical "establishment" to force OR COERCE individuals to be vaccinated, and even worse to force parents to do ANYTHING THEY DON'T WANT TO, "for" their children, especially in the name of "the greater good". THAT IS EXACTLY THE JUSTIFICATION THE nazis USED FOR THEIR "ethnic cleansing".

People that don't wear seat-belts DO NOT HURT ME. People that don't get vaccinated DON'T HURT ME UNLESS I choose not to be vaccinated. For the medical profession to assert otherwise is TOO STUPID to comprehend.

Paul

[Jamie.270]

But that's what happens when you turn your country and its laws over to insurance companies Paul.
The insurer that pays more medical costs for the accident victim that didn't wear his seatbelt, says you must pay higher premiums to offset the cost of his/her medical bills.
So the sheeple cackle to their congress critter and a bill gets passed requiring seat belts be worn.
Of course the sheeple are too stupid to realize that the ins. premium doesn't go back down once the law is passed,..........

The dotgov is heavily involved in paying medical bills, and insurance premiums for same, soooo - they want everyone to take every step available to avoid getting sick.  Hence the push for new laws promoting/forcing vaccines.

[gitano]

Yahbut - Just because they get a law passed that everyone must wear seatbelts, DOES NOT MEAN THEY LOWER INSURANCE PREMIUMS! The passage of the law just means THEIR PROFITS GO UP.

Paul

[22hornet]

Interesting topic. Here in OZ we have started to experience an "outbreak"(?) of Hep A due to people eating contaminated berries imported from China. So far the numbers are extremely low, however as the weeks and months roll on I expect the numbers to rise.
I am vaccinated against Hep A, as well as numerous other things, mostly due to my job but also due to travel. The rest of my family are also vaccinated against most things. Hey, most all vaccines are free of charge and if I don't experience any side affect of have a previous allergy them I'm all for it.
One vaccine I no longer get however is the 'flu shot. I have had the 'flu vaccine in the past and have got "crook as Rookwood" from the vaccine. And I have also got the 'flu vaccine and still got the 'flu.
My doctor doesn't even recommend the 'flu vaccine unless the person is elderly or at very high risk of other complications due to getting the 'flu. And he is about the only doctor I know who doesn't recommend the 'flu vaccine. In fact he doesn't even dole out medication unless it is very necessary. Most of the time he just says "You are sick but you are also fit and healthy, you will get over it."
Even when I was bitten by the brown snake, one of the most venomous snakes in the world, everyone in the hospital were losing their minds about what to do. One doctor, the one who finally treated me, said he wouldn't give me antivenin because it can make you extremely sick! I though this guy was nuts but he said at that stage I was far better off to ride out the signs and symptoms and come out clean at the other end, rather than have the ongoing problems and complications that go with brown snake antivenin.

[gitano]

I got bitten in the hand by a copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix) when I was about 10. Pretty much the same advice. By the time I got to the hospital AND the fact that they didn't have any antivenin on hand, they just said "Looks like he won't die. Looks like he won't loose any fingers or his hand. Just watch him and let us know if he gets worse."  It hurt REALLY bad, but I am not noticeably worse for it.

Vaccinations, as long as they aren't "designer" vaccinations - like the 'flu vaccinations are - are "good" in my opinion. If "you" can take them, "you" probably should. However, if a parent doesn't want to vaccinate their child, then by God, they should not be forced to, and if an adult doehsn't want a vaccination, they shouldn't be forced to take one. If "you" are going into the "Third World" and you don't get vaccinated, "you're" simply asking to get sick. Deathly sick in many cases.

Paul

[Jamie.270]

"We can't find an autistic kid who was unvaccinated."

https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/if-vaccines-dont-cause-autism-then