Wildcat Cartridge Series - 35 Whelen AI

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

This cartridge was once the cartridge to have for a 'poor man's magnum'.  I have one myself and used it for a number of years hunting bear and elk.  I prefer the 250 grain bullet and I use a compressed load of 4831 with magnum primers.  It shoots under an inch and is a joy to carry in heavy timber.  It is one of the rifles that I hope my sons never sell but pass on.

[NUMBERFARMER]

Jay, or anyone else willing to lend some advice.
What is the process to rechamber a 35 whelen to this cartridge? Does the barrel have to be removed, put in a lathe, and then reblued, or can the work be done without ruining the barrel blue. This seems like a great improvement over the standard whelen, but that could be more paper than factual. 2725 with a 250 grain bullet is about 300 fps better than the regular cartridge and a signigicant change. Also what type of open sight could be placed on a rifle like this that would allow older eyes to still be effective? I have a couple rifles that have 1x scopes that are very helpful, but would like to set up a rifle like this to have some sort of open sight. Any ideas?

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Sorry NF...the measurement on all my 'improved' cases to the base of the neck is .012" shorter than the standard Whelen.  You would have to set the barrel back at least one thread.

The work can be done without ruining the blue if you can find a good gunsmith to do the work.  After all, you're not chambering the barrel but running the the reamer in a little deeper.  Rosin is used in the barrel vise to keep from marring the finish and lead/rosin can be used in the chuck to grab the barrel.  Probably have to use a special fixture for the steady rest but a good gunsmith can do it.

Now...the other option.  Get a new barrel with the profile you want to support the iron sights.  Invest in a Lyman receiver sight, get a 'gold ring' insert, install an 'ivory bead' front sight (with barrel band if possible) and have the barrel blued to match.  You can always re-install the barrel if you wish but that 'original barrel' with all the markings becomes a selling point if you wish to sell the rifle.  Again, insure that the gunsmith is going to use rosin to remove the barrel...insist that the barrel remain unmarked.

Odds are that you won't sell the rifle...and if this is so, the 'original barrel' can be sold to some poor soul who has the same action but is chambered in something with an '06 size base.  You'll recoup some of your dinero and everybody is happy.

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

NUMBERFARMER,
 
What Jay said is absolutely correct-a-mundo!
 
Ol' John
 
PS..Might tell Jay and I what action and barrel you have and that way we can give you our "UNBIASED" (ha!) opinion........

[NUMBERFARMER]

My 35 whelen is a ruger MK II blued barrel with open sights and synthetic stock.

[periscope_depth]

I have noticed that Barnes Cartridges of the World newest edition really inflates ballistics.

I am not sure you can find a 35 Whelen AI that will propel a 250 grain bullet at 2750 fps...if so, the .338 Win mag would quickly become obsolete as the 338 uses 75 to 80 grains of powder to do what the 35 Whelen would do with 65 grains.  

To be sure...I owed a 35 Whelen....not the improved and got 2510 FPS with a hot handloaded 250 grain bullet.  Recoil was stiff but not excessive.

I regret selling that rifle.

[pennsy]

hey guys,
 new to the forum but glad i stumbled across you all .  imagine finding something of interest right off the bat. have a vz 24 mauser action that is itching to become a 338-06ai or 35 whelen ai . not sure yet. swinging towards the 338 ai just because i think it offers a little more selection bullet wise. its funny but i was on my killing spree in younger years with a straight up 7x57 stoked up with 130 grn speers over a heavy dose of ww-760. this round would be good for anything outside of things that think your lunch!! this hyper velocity craze was all started by roy weatherby and the ultra mags surley  have thier place but my thinking is there is nothing that will take the place of  good shooting

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

I agree with you whole heartedly on the last part of your statement. However, I couldn't sleep tonight if I didn't point out the error of your ways.

There just isn't a better medium bore cartridge than the .35 Whelen Improved. There are some crazy people that hang around here who disagree...especially that firearms barbarian over in the U.K. Someday he'll come to his senses but right now there's not much hope.

The .35 Whelen Improved, tight chambered in a laser barrel, loaded correctly and in the hands of a good hunter will take any North American game there is. With solids it might just be good for anything in the world that won't eat you. I wonder what it's effect on Buff would be if the solids were good?

The .338 AI is good but it has one drawback...it ain't as good as the .35 Whelen Improved.

[gitano]

C'mon Jay, how about less word mincing and more straight talk. Quit pussy-footing around.
 
Paul

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

        Now I must point out the error of your thinking,    the Hyper velocity craze was started whilst Weatherby was still in shorts.......... way back in 1906 by Sir Charles Ross quickly followed by Charles (?) Newton in the English speaking world. In Germany there were also Gunsmiths/designers who were striving for the hyper velocites. Weatherby not only had this ground wotk to work with but also by the time he came along better propellants as well. Heck even BSA here in the UK launched a range of high velocity cartridges in 1923, the 26, 33 and 45 BSA in conjuction with a chemical company, due to poor marketing I believe and bad luck with the depression just around the corner the cartridges and the rifles for them faded away.
 
      Now I have to ask that Old timer what the heck I have done to be labelled a Barbarian ? so Old Man..........?  Come on  Jay what is it then?  speak up man:rolleyes:  
 
      I know of certain like minded fellows how think that the 7.92 Mauser is better than the Springfield 06 as the bullet is slightly larger...................... well as the 9.3mm has a bullet diameter of 0.366" against the 0.358" of the Wheelan it's quite logical that as the 7.92mm Mauser cartridge is superior  to the 06, then it follows that the 9.3 x62mm is superior to the 35 Wheelan and I don't even have the 9.3x62mm as I have to older 9.3x57 Mauser . It's strange that the 9.3mm cartridges predate the Wheelan except the 9.3x64mm which uses a bigger bases case anyway. I suppose as the 03 cartridge was based upon the Mauser case that it follows that the 35 wheelan would be based upon another mauser cartridge;) .
 
     Hmm I wonder how the 9.3x62mm would take to the Improved treatment, minimum body taper and a sharp 40 degree shoulder after all the std cartridge pushes the 258 grn bulelt along at  2510 fps so the improved one should move it along at about the 2700 fps or just under that mark:D

[klallen]

From all I've read of it, the .35 Whelen is just about the best standard type cartridge (along with the .280 Rem.) for responding with the most performance gain due to the improvements of the ackley design.  Because of this, my .280 Rem AI is nearing completion and I darn near had me the Whelen AI built, as well.  To its credit, the Whelen AI was in the running for the longest time but in the end, for all the cartridge has going for it, I just couldn't get past one little short-coming     ...     it wasn't a .358 STA.  And that's the .358 hammer I really wanted.  Other then that one minor detail, it's an exceptional cartridge and I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing it as their bear, elk, moose getter.
 
PENNSY, if ya want yourself a .338-06 AI, that's perfect, but I really wouldn't discount owning a Whelen AI based on the thinking that there's not a sufficient supply of bullets to feed the think.  It's simply not true.  From Ballistic Tips, to Interlocks, to X bullets, cheap Speer HotCor SP's to the expensive Swift A-Frames in weights ranging from light 180 grs. up to 310 grs., there is certainly no shortage of bullets to keep a .358 enthusiast happy.  Definitely choose what you like, but don't let bullet selection be a huge determining factory for ya.  Good luck in your choosing.  Later.  >>  klallen

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

C'mon Jay, how about less word mincing and more straight talk. Quit pussy-footing around.
 
Paul

Yeah Jay, what Paul said! "firearms barbarian".......thats a good one....wish I hadda thunk of it!!!
 
Brithunter.........we really like ya! If we didn't like ya----well, we would not even talk to ya!
We gotta "razz" you just a bit to keep you on your toes and paying attention to us "AMERICANS" across the pond so we can hopefully civilize and larn ya a thing or two!

PEACE..........

Ol' John...:D

[Brithunter]

Hi All,
 
Firearms Barbarian............... hmm well I tend to agree except it's the other way around, when I think of some of the abortions I see toted around as "good shooting irons" barbarian definately comes to mind. The first one to spring to mind is the Weatherby's . Darned awful styling and stupid prices:mad:

[Kanibal]

What would you recommend in a rifle chambered for the 35 Whelen AI (action, style, length and rifle brand)?  Do any of you know of any good custom shops chambering for this cartridge?  I would love one for black bear or maybe just to have another gun.
 
 
 

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

Kanibal,
 
Any long action(30-06 length) would be suitable.  Ruger, Winchester, Savage, Remington - whichever you take a liking to.  You can obtain a donor action and rebarrel or do as I did and have it rebored and rechambered.  See the continuing thread in firearms that I just updated on a Remington 721, 30-06 rebored/chambered to 338-06.  I hope to have pic's posted soon.  Whatever your "wallet" can stand!
 
Ol' John

[pennsy]

well guys if i really wanted the hammer of thor without any boloney, i would just have a
 411 hawk built and shoot  350 grainers out of it.. z-hat .com  has some very interesting stuff off the 06 case. his hawk cartridges are some very fine improvements on  existing cartridges.
 check out the .411 and i think you will see what a beatuiful round it is. big uglies that think you are a snack might think twice about sampling you. do we have any guides on this web that do elk hunts??? looking a coulple years down the road and this greenhorn could use some help. always thought about idaho or montana pack in hunts

[Kanibal]

Wow that 411 Hawk sounds great............IF you are going to be killing dangerous game or king kong and if thats what you are hunting then why not just get a 450 Alaskan (45-348 Winchester Improved). One of the best grizzly killers in Alaska. I dont know much about it but im sure Jay could find a proprietory cartridge article about it somewhere. Chambered in a nice Winchester or Browning lever action, I believe the Browning model 71's were the most popular. That is one project that I would love to undertake and would be interested in finding out more info if anyone knows anything about the Alaskan wildcats. They were made by a guy in Coopers Landing, I think? Thanks for posting the Hawk website they sound like an awesome custom cartridge company.
 
 
 
 
 

[pennsy]

kanibal,
 
 z-hat will  build you up what you are looking for. look at the rest of his sight. he is young custom gunsmith and he can builld the450 alaskan  for you.  look at his lever  guns and  the guide stevenson  who is a guide in alaska...  he carries a big stick  like that for back up. where are you from??

[pennsy]

regarding the 9.3x62 and improving it. the dimensions at the shoulder are already at .4508 and most of ackleys are .455 so you wouldnt get much increase in powder space, at least i wouldnt think so. it does have th 17 degree shoulder that the 06 carries. so , i would think that the improvement may help case streching. otto bock designed it in 1905 for farmers that needed protection against elephants and other marauding beasts. it must of been a heck of a round in its time. nosler makes a ballistic tip in 250 grns that has a b.c. of .493. its a sweet round. dont know what accuracy is like but i bet it would make a real nice medium range heavy. of course.... these are just my opinions

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Firearms Barbarian............... hmm well I tend to agree except it's the other way around, when I think of some of the abortions I see toted around as "good shooting irons" barbarian definately comes to mind. The first one to spring to mind is the Weatherby's  . Darned awful styling and stupid prices.

[/size]

Uh-oh.  Looks like my satire fell flat.  I meant 'barbarian' as opposed to 'sophisticate'.  Ah well...sorry BH.

And I agree about Weatherby.  The styling is not to my taste and the price does not reflect what you get.  The same amount of money could get you a proprietary firearm that out performs the Weatherby.  Weatherby made a name for himself when the landscape for American made magnums was rather barren.  He marketed it well and made money.  But let us be realistic here...any firearm is simply that...a firearm.  Dress it up, style it different, put it into the hands of celebrities for free...the central question is "Will the cartridge I'm shooting, in the rifle I'm shooting, do the job"?

PENNSY, if ya want yourself a .338-06 AI, that's perfect, but I really wouldn't discount owning a Whelen AI based on the thinking that there's not a sufficient supply of bullets to feed the think. It's simply not true. From Ballistic Tips, to Interlocks, to X bullets, cheap Speer HotCor SP's to the expensive Swift A-Frames in weights ranging from light 180 grs. up to 310 grs., there is certainly no shortage of bullets to keep a .358 enthusiast happy. Definitely choose what you like, but don't let bullet selection be a huge determining factory for ya. Good luck in your choosing.

[/size]

This quote from klallen reflects my feelings as well.

I know of certain like minded fellows how think that the 7.92 Mauser is better than the Springfield 06 as the bullet is slightly larger...................... well as the 9.3mm has a bullet diameter of 0.366" against the 0.358" of the Wheelan it's quite logical that as the 7.92mm Mauser cartridge is superior to the 06, then it follows that the 9.3 x62mm is superior to the 35 Wheelan and I don't even have the 9.3x62mm as I have to older 9.3x57 Mauser . It's strange that the 9.3mm cartridges predate the Wheelan except the 9.3x64mm which uses a bigger bases case anyway. I suppose as the 03 cartridge was based upon the Mauser case that it follows that the 35 wheelan would be based upon another mauser cartridge .

[/size]

This rationale is suspect BH.  The .35 Whelen Improved (named for Townsend Whelen) was a cartridge developed to put a so-called magnum style cartridge in the hands of those who could not afford the .375 H&H at that time.  I believe James Howe (master metalsmith & gunmaker) was at the core of this cartridge.

Certainly you could take other cartridges and 'improve' them, or even go to larger cartridges, to exceed the Whelen's ballistics...but this thread is about the 35 Whelen Improved and it's value.  

You can take a classic 98 Mauser action (or a Springfield) and very easily convert it to 35 Whelen Improved with out any action alterations.  With the development of (and availability) of slower burning powders (to act upon the 40 degree shoulders) the cartridge shows even more it's latent prowess.

This cartridge came along at a time when it was needed.  Yes, there are short 35 Magnums...the 350 Remington Magnum springs to mind...but none of them were available then!  The 35 Whelen was, and still is, an American Classic that will take any North American game...and through the years it has done exactly that.  

Brithunter, 'bug, Hondo, gitano, and many more here...all have classic rifles from a bygone era.  They treasure them as well they should.  Exactly which cartridges they are chambered for is not within my memory.

The fact that the .35 Whelen was re-introduced says something for it's desireablity.  The fact that the .35 Whelen Improved is an established improvement in its own right also says something about the cartridge.  The recoil in not objectionable, it certainly is as accurate as others of its ilk, the ammunition is dead easy to make, it is a conversation piece that more than mere decoration or just 'interesting' and it has another little reward...military .30-06 brass is still relatively easy to get. And I believe it is important to mention that the ease with which a cartridge case can be obtained in any particular country is a major consideration.

I'm not picking on Brithunter here...he's one of our valuable resources over the sea...no, I'm just picking the cartridges he mentioned for a little comparison.  

[pennsy]

okay,
 sorry i got off the thread and got carried away discussing other rounds. i have friends that have the 35 ai  and i have loaded some rounds for them. have also shot at paper but not animals with it. accuracy was excellent. if meemory serves me.. its been a few yrs, the load i was using was 56.0 grns of reloder 15 under a 250 grn noslers. the recoil was more of a shove then a quick belt  like the 338  mag i shot

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Well this cartridge still seems to be very much alive and kicking.

I've had two hunters mention to me that they've used this cartridge (along with one who used the straight .35 Whelen)  with no problem at all.  One shot took out a Black Bear and the other a Whitetail.  In both cases the range was estimated from 90 yards to 125 yards and both were using the 250 grain jacketed semi-roundnose bullets.

One cartridge was  loaded from old miltary brass but in both cases I neglected to get the powder charge.

My own experiences parallel these two stories exactly except I can say that I used 4831 powder.  Of course I use flintlocks pretty much anymore but I will always have a soft spot for my first 'poor man's magnum'.

[Hunterbug]

Jay, I finally used the Whelen for the first time a few weeks ago. My rifle had problems and Recoil Junky loaned me his. I dropped a mule deer doe with one shot at 183 yards. His load was a 250gr bullet but I don't remember the powder.

[recoil junky]

60.5 grains of H4350 and a 250 grain Hornady spire point at 2470 fps. VERY compressed load.
 
RJ

[sakorick]

Well, well, well. Mine (35 W IMP)is almost done.....been hunting every day for about 18 days as the rut is on here in NC Missouri so there is a work stopage on the rifle. Have seen many deer and haven't dented a cap yet. There are some nice ones close by. Passed on 3 8 points and zillions of does/scrubs.

I expect great things from my rifle once completed.....IMR4064 is the "go to" powder according to the Sierra Techies. Not sure if the slower burning stuff is going to work.....after all, it's just a 30'06 with a bit more powder capacity. Here are the IMR numbers on the vanilla Whelen. http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/35whelen.php

These are pretty bland loads and I suspect there is alot more in the offing. From what I've seen most Mauser actions can handle 55 to 60 thousand pressure with no problem. I'll work up slow when the day comes and you will be the first to hear the results. Off to sleep as there is another day in the field awaiting! Rgeards, Rick.

[recoil junky]

I tried 4064 wheni first got mine. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if I was standing inside!!!!!!!!!!!!! 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards w/ 225 grain Sierras. Went to 250 Hornadys and H4350 and my groups can be 1 holers if I do my part.
 
I queeried Hogdon about why there was no load listed using H4350 and they said it didn't devlope enough  pressure  Must work just fine in my rifle, because it's killed 6-7 elk and at least that many deer. It also works pretty good for prarrie dogs out to 300 yards:D
 
RJ

[sakorick]

I tried 4064 wheni first got mine. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if I was standing inside!!!!!!!!!!!!! 4-5 inch groups at 100 yards w/ 225 grain Sierras. Went to 250 Hornadys and H4350 and my groups can be 1 holers if I do my part.
 
I queeried Hogdon about why there was no load listed using H4350 and they said it didn't devlope enough pressure Must work just fine in my rifle, because it's killed 6-7 elk and at least that many deer. It also works pretty good for prarrie dogs out to 300 yards:D
 
RJ

Hello RJ. Good going on finding such a great load. What Rifle, twist and length of barrel do you use. Also, What kind of brass, primers, OAL and the grains of 4350 you are using. Any MV numbers? I talked to Sierra some time ago and they recommended the 4064 or RL15 as their top pick. 4350 is certainly a good powder, however, Hodgdon and IMR both do not recommend it in the 35 Whelen (they don't have Improved data). It's pretty unusual to change 5 inch groups into "one holers" with similar powder.....It's obvious your rifle likes the 250 grain bullet over the 225.

I reload the 220 Swift, 243, 6.5-284, both the 7mm and 8mm Mauser, 30'06, 8-56R and the 270 with IMR4064. As you can see, this is my "go to" powder for many calibers. IMR lists the 250 gr bullet with 58gr IMR4064 (compressed) at 2502 in the Vanilla 35 W. The Sierra techies told me to work up 5 to 7% over on the Ackley which should give me 2600 +/- with the 250 gr bullet. I built my 35 Ackley on a commercial Mauser action with a 25 inch Wilson one in 9.5 Twist. It's going to be packaged in a Boyds Nutmeg thumbhole laminate stock. This is my most exciting project to date.

Passed on two decent 8 points today.....Still have 4 days of rifle season left and the deer are rutting hard. Middle of the third quarter.....plenty of time left for the big boy:D . Regards, Rick