Logic and reason

LvrLover · June 02, 2009, 06:12:14 PM

I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE, EXCEPT FOR THE VIOLENT OVERTHROW OF OUR HEARTS CONDITION. If I knew someone was going to murder a baby born 1 minute ago and I stopped them by killing them, I would be a praised as a hero. If I had killed Hitler or any other genocidal maniac before they could kill more innocents, I would again be a hero. THINK ON IT. nuf said

bowhunter 51 · June 03, 2009, 05:12:54 AM

Hmmmm......I see a couple of If's in there, so I assume this is theoretic...
One example differ's from the other, as the 1st example is speculative
the 2nd is based on "fact" which is evident today, but, was sketchy at
that time in history....Killing for praise or social status, I find toubleing...
Killing is a last resort, too me....Restraining would be my 1st choice, if at
all possible...Killing a human being is not an easy thing....ain't like shooting
game in the field....ain't never done it myself, but I know someone who
has, (in self-defense) that was very close to me....Now if reflecting on the
veiws of society or the impression the media would display?...anybody's
quess would be as good as mine....I hope I'm on the same page.........BH51..

Daryl (deceased) · June 03, 2009, 06:12:20 AM

I agree with bowhunter51, for whatever it's worth.

My first thought was "Praised by who?". I don't think such things should be done for praise, nor necessarily stopped by the masses who may disagree.

For instance, there's a certain pharmacist in Ok City who killed an armed robber. However, after the threat seemed to have ended, the guy walked over, and shot the apparently disabled (by prior shots fired) perp 5 more times in the torso. While the public apparently seems to think the perp got what he deserved, and the phamacist is largely praised for it, he's also been arrested for 1st degree murder. He was justified in defending himself while in danger, but not in executing the perp after the threat had ended.

But, without some explanation about where you're coming from, I could very well be missing the point.

????

Daryl

rockinbbar · June 03, 2009, 06:21:11 AM

I think he's weighing in on the abortion Dr. that was shot and killed while attending church.

bowhunter 51 · June 03, 2009, 03:03:25 PM

Quote from: rockinbbar;93435I think he's weighing in on the abortion Dr. that was shot and killed while attending church.

Oh!...................:D .......I caught a small part of that on the news...not
completely up on that story.....but,......I've noticed the media seems to be
pushing a lot more self-defense/ robbery-attempt shootings in my world, lately.......I expect violence will be on the increase.......never thought about
having to pack a gun to church..............................................................BH51....

LvrLover · June 03, 2009, 04:50:57 PM

Quote from: rockinbbar;93435I think he's weighing in on the abortion Dr. that was shot and killed while attending church.

Yes that was my intent. Sorry if I was ambiguous. I just want us all to think about the situation. Do I really look at BOTH men as what they are? Murderers. Are they both murderers? Is something immoral because it is illegal, or is something moral because it is legal? Just thinking "out loud" so to speak. I don't have plans to kill any abortion doctors.

TackyDriver · June 03, 2009, 06:44:19 PM

If we're talking about the “doctor", George Tiller, who committed late term abortions and was killed in Kansas, I'm deeply troubled. This is as it should be. Such events should make us think about how we apply our moral principles to real life situations. When push comes to shove, we may not have the time to think it out.

We find ourselves, in the USA, caught between what I believe is an immoral law, and our moral principles. I can understand the claim that this “doctor” was killed in defense of the innocent. However, did the suspect exhaust every alternative to killing? I'm not certain but I believe I read that Tiller was under another investigation that might have shut him down. True, he was previously acquitted on another similar charge, but this time might have done it.

I'm afraid that the suspect may have caused more harm than good. I'm going to be really upset if Tiller becomes a martyr. If this country ever institutes a commemorative day for this yahoo, I'll lose my lunch. Stranger things have been known to happen: a mediocre president who was responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco, among other things, became revered out of all reason simply because he was assassinated. Tiller claimed to help women whose fetus were unhealthy or had some defect. I remember another famous person who was concerned with who was or was not fit to live: Adolph Hitler. Perhaps we would be better able to evaluate Tiller if we knew how much money he made for each late term abortion.

Was the suspect really concerned with ending abortion or just committing a personal vigilante action? Why did this guy shoot Tiller in a church? Was killing Tiller the only, or even the best, way to fight abortion? Maybe the suspect won his battle, but I don't think he helped win the war. There are other “doctors” at the clinic who will take Tiller's place and there are still two other clinics that perform late term abortions in the USA. They are going to enjoy increased protection, increased sympathy and worst of all, increased indifference from those who will focus on the public violence the suspect performed vs. the violence performed within the walls of clinics. I don't even want to go into how his actions will threaten gun ownership. At least for now.

Perhaps, instead of killing Tiller, the suspect could have helped one of the many organizations that support unwed mothers until they can put their children up for adoption or that help unwed mothers get on their feet. That's the other side of choice in the pro-choice scheme of things. People who support such organizations are real heroes to me.

The suspect could have been active socially or politically to change the law. Even Norma L. McCorvey, the Jane Roe of the Roe v. Wade court decision that put legal abortion in motion is now currently anti-abortion and goes on speaking tours to express her regret and get the anti-abortion message out.

If the suspect is sincere and wants to claim that his actions are some form of civil disobedience, then he is going to have to accept the full legal consequences. Anyone willing to take the law into his/her hands had better be ready to face the results of breaking the law. I think it should be this way. People shouldn't take breaking the law lightly, but only in the gravest of circumstances and only because choosing the lesser of two evils is the best moral course.

I have no sympathy for George Tiller and it would take an inordinate amount of grace from The Almighty for me to cross the street and use my waste fluids to put him out if he was on fire. I don't really have a lot of sympathy for the suspect, if he is found guilty, either. IMHO, he wasn't really trying to stop abortion but acting out some personal issue. He will only have made things worse for those who really are trying to end abortion. I agree with Leverlvr in advocating the “violent overthrow of our hearts condition.” If we want to end legal abortions, we'll have to change the law. Otherwise, those who perform abortion procedures have the protection of the law. Opponents of abortion are going to have to show that they are more civilized than those who support it. Opponents of abortion will have to change hearts, not be-still them.

TackyDriver · June 03, 2009, 06:55:13 PM

The fact that both victim and perp are murderers is what bothers me too. I always taught my kids that if someone does something wrong to them, they shouldn't do something wrong back because now there's twice as much wrong in the world. On the other hand, two wrongs don't make a right, but sometimes a couple of lefts can help.

LvrLover · June 03, 2009, 06:55:21 PM

TackyDriver,

You have hit on almost all the things that I have been mulling over for the past few days. You have stated it much better than I could have. I believe if we work to change peoples hearts, the law of the land will follow. Thank you.

LvrLover

TackyDriver · June 03, 2009, 07:18:35 PM

LvrLover, I like the way you think and care about what's important. It gives me comfort to realize I'm not alone while I'm whistling in the dark.

LvrLover · June 03, 2009, 07:24:14 PM

Yes, we all like to stand alone on our beliefs, but it nice to know that others at least can follow our reasoning.

bowhunter 51 · June 05, 2009, 04:32:32 AM

Quote from: bowhunter 51;93442Oh!...................:D .......I caught a small part of that on the news...not
completely up on that story.....but,......I've noticed the media seems to be
pushing a lot more self-defense/ robbery-attempt shootings in my world, lately.......I expect violence will be on the increase.......never thought about
having to pack a gun to church..............................................................BH51....

...............

Coincidentally, ...and relative to...I read this morning a Kentucky pastor
is inviting his flock to bring guns to church to celebrate the 4th of July &
the 2nd amendment....Pastor Ken Pagano of Louisville, Kentucky's
New Bethel Church, says "We're not ashamed to say, there was a strong
belief in God and firearms - without that this country would not be here."
Of course, he expects some back' lash, but has heard little critisism...
The event was planned months ago.......Hmmmm....go figure..............BH51...

gitano · August 30, 2010, 01:42:33 PM

Quotea mediocre president who was responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco, among other things, became revered out of all reason simply because he was assassinated.

Absolutely!

QuoteWas the suspect really concerned with ending abortion or just committing a personal vigilante action? Why did this guy shoot Tiller in a church? Was killing Tiller the only, or even the best, way to fight abortion? Maybe the suspect won his battle, but I don't think he helped win the war. There are other "doctors" at the clinic who will take Tiller's place and there are still two other clinics that perform late term abortions in the USA.

Good points all. Most importantly to me is the fact that death (AKA killing the body), belongs to God. Before I choose to do His job for Him - no matter how righteous I may believe my motives to be - I better be sure I have His unambiguous go-ahead first.

QuoteIf the suspect is sincere and wants to claim that his actions are some form of civil disobedience, then he is going to have to accept the full legal consequences. Anyone willing to take the law into his/her hands had better be ready to face the results of breaking the law. I think it should be this way.

This is the way I feel too. However, if I DO have His unambiguous "go-ahead", then the results of the laws of man shouldn't worry me because He wouldn't "sacrifice" me for a whim. In other words, we are not simply pieces of meat that God fiddles with whimsically.

Quoteor me to cross the street and use my waste fluids to put him out if he was on fire.

I've tried for many years to figure out a way to say that phrase "politely".

Thanks to THL for this solution.

Let offer an alternative bit of "logic" to contemplate...

If I get drunk and kill a pregnant woman and her child with my car, I am guilty of murder REGARDLESS of the age of the fetus. It could be HOURS after conception. Yet, by the law of the land, any pregnant woman and a licensed doctor can commit the same murder (the doctor, multiple times a day) and they are considered - under the law - innocent.

The hypocrisy of that both boggles my mind and infuriates me.

Paul

LvrLover · August 30, 2010, 03:40:03 PM

This is weird. I just looked at this thread today before you posted. I checked on a bunch of the threads I started from as far back as when I joined(4 years -time flies). Its interesting to see some of the projects and tangents I have and haven't followed up on. My whole point in this thread at that time was to make people, including myself, think from a different perspective.

What made you post on this today?

gitano · August 30, 2010, 03:49:35 PM

Sorry, it wasn't "divine intervention". I saw you looking at it. I hadn't seen it before, and I was just talking about the stupid hypocrisy of abortion in the context of our national senatorial race and decided to chime in to an old, but still relevant, thread.

Our current senator - Lisa Murkowski - is behind at the moment but the race is so close we won't know until tomorrow - a week after the election - whether the "upstart" Joe Miller has won. Murkowski is a pretty good "republican", but she's very pro-abortion. That pretty much seals it for me.

Anyway, I was making the hypocrisy point with someone yesterday, and thought I'd add my two-cents-worth here.

Paul