What deer cartridge would you choose?

[Gmoney]

Paul,

May I ask what the muzzle velocities, range, and what bullets were used in your 7x57 and .308 experiences described above?

Thanks...

[gitano]

The game was caribou.
 
Bullets were 150 Nolser Ballistic Tips for the .308 Win and 154 Hornadys for the 7mm.
 
My records for the .308 MV show my "best" load right at 2900 f/s; for the 7x57 it is 2887 f/s.
 
Ranges were as far as 225-ish for the .308 Win; all under 200 for the 7x57.
 
All shots were behind the shoulder and into the chest cavity.
 
There were no second shots required for either cartridge, although there were some "airballs" sent after the retreating 7mm-shot animals.
 
There were 6 animals shot literally side-by-side. There are many more examples of .308 and 7mm kills on the same hunt but where the shots weren't actually side-by-side.
 
There were no 'gut shots' and no central nervous system shots.
 
The comparisons have taken place over an 11-year interval.
 
In addition, I have first-hand side-by-side comaprisons between the 7mm "Mag", (in the two configuratios I have), and the 7x57. On mule deer and prong-horned antelope, the "running results" are the same. No "bang flops" for the 7x57; all "bang flops" for the "Mags". Obviously - at least to the objective reviewer - impact velocity, not caliber, was the primary difference between the Mag and the x57. However, there was a considerable difference in bullet type for the two cartridges: 115 HP  for the Mags, 139 and 154 spitzers for the 7x57.
 
This is not a denigration of the 7x57. I really like that cartridge, and have several rifles chambered for it. However, objective comparison between it and ANY .30 caliber with a larger case capacity and for a big game hunting application, leaves absolutely no question in my mind that caliber matters. Move to a comparison between the .308 caliber, and the .323 caliber, and you will find me solidly "in favor" of the 8mm. For example, I would ALWAYS choose the 8mm-08 over the .308 Win.  When it comes to big game AND NOVICE HUNTERS, caliber matters.
 
Ol' John likes to use .223s for Texas deer. Ol' John is an experienced hunter that has the discipline to take specific shots and no others. I like the .17 Rem for Sitka black-tailed deer. I have the discipline to take specific shots. "Koromojo (sp) Bill" supposedly used the 7x57 to take "thousands" of elephants. I submit that calling him 'experienced' is 'proper'.
 
The 7x57 kills just as dead as the the .308 Win, however, it doesn't kill just as fast as the .308 Win. Deny this if you like. The evidence is crystal clear to me, and I will take that position EVERY time anyone asks my opinion on a comparison of the two cartridges, or suggests that "there is no difference on game".
 
Paul

[buffalo bob]

i am not discounting anything said here.  but in my experience of 30+yr deer hunting i have seen deer drop on the spot when hit by 110gr 25-06 factory load at 100yd.  i have also seen a deer drop on the spot hit by #4 shot from a 16ga shotgun.  wasnt too happy with the fellow that did that one.  but i have also personally shot deer with 338 win mag 250gr  and 30-378 wby 180gr.  and seen these deer run with the entire top of their heart gone.  one with the wby had lung tissue hanging out of the exit wound when it fell.  i think more depends on the adrenaline rush of the individual deer.  the only way to avoid that is neck or shoulder spine shots that shut off the electrical connection between the brain and legs.

[Gmoney]

Thanks Paul...

I wasn't questioning your observations.  I was just wondering the "rest of the story"...

I won't deny the .308 "kills quicker" than the 7x57 or even the 7mm-08 for that matter.

I'm just curious if you thought about the bullet that was chosen in the said application above and the impact (s) (pun intended) it might have had on your running game.

The 7mm 154 Hornady is a pretty "tough" bullet by many standards and is considered a "premium" in many camps.  Combine this with the modest velocities in the 7x57 and you have a very reliable killer, albeit it a "slower" one with more than likely two holes.

The 150 BT in .308, I would guess as I havent cut one up, would be a more frangible bullet.  BT's are known for their DRT performance.

Especially in todays day in age, with not only the quality of bullets available but also the "type" of bullets available (Ballistic tips vs. Triple Shocks for example) and their differing killing characteristics, I would argue, to some extent, bullet selection is more important then ever.  The increasing importance of bullet selection to match your application and expected performance on game, IMHO, takes away "some" of the caliber importance.  Obviously, comparing a 53 grain TSX to a .308" Vmax is not what I'm talking.

Have you given this a thunk?

I bet your animal reactions with a 154 Hornady in 7x57 compared to say a 165 or a 180 Hornady in .308 would be very similar...

Purely ballistic gack of course....grin...

Have a great 4th!

[kombi1976]

I'm unfamiliar with the Hornady bullet but 140gr bullets do tend to be a more popular bullet for the moderate 7mms.
Was there a reason you chose the 154gr, Paul?

[22hornet]

Thanks Paul...
 
I'm just curious if you thought about the bullet that was chosen in the said application above and the impact (s) (pun intended) it might have had on your running game.
 
The 7mm 154 Hornady is a pretty "tough" bullet by many standards and is considered a "premium" in many camps. Combine this with the modest velocities in the 7x57 and you have a very reliable killer, albeit it a "slower" one with more than likely two holes.
 
Especially in todays day in age, with not only the quality of bullets available but also the "type" of bullets available (Ballistic tips vs. Triple Shocks for example) and their differing killing characteristics, I would argue, to some extent, bullet selection is more important then ever. The increasing importance of bullet selection to match your application and expected performance on game, IMHO, takes away "some" of the caliber importance.
Have you given this a thunk?
 
I bet your animal reactions with a 154 Hornady in 7x57 compared to say a 165 or a 180 Hornady in .308 would be very similar...
 
Purely ballistic gack of course....grin...
 

What I was thinking too!
I like the ballistic tip but I think of them, (and don't shoot me down for this either), as a "tipped hollow point".
They expand rapidly delivering all, or alot of their energy to the animal. Tougher projectiles "work" differently.

[gitano]

Bullet selection is certainly significant. However, the argument in this thread was that .308 Wins get 165 or 180s, wasn't the killer that the 7x57 was "with 'good' bullets".
 
While I agree that that today's bullets make the matter of caliber choice less important, I would NOT say that bullet choice is more critical today. Quite the contrary. I would argue that since there are so many excellent bullet choices, one can hardly pick a "bad" one.
 
I truly have NO problem with the 7x57 as a big game rifle. NONE. I have no problem with a .223 Rem as a big game cartridge. I have no problem wiht a .17 Rem as a big game cartridge. Each rifle/cartridge/shooter "team" renders each hunting situation unique. Therefore, I WOULD recommend FOR the .308 Win over the 7x57 Mauser for the novice hunter. And that was the context in which I opined that "caliber matters".
 
By the way, there were no "running shots" that actually made contact. All the shots mentioned above were standing broadsides.
 
I chose the 154-grainer because between the 115 HP, the 139 Spitzer and the 154 Spitzer, the 154 shot straightest, and since the shooter was my wife, a novice hunter, precision was FAR more important than bullet type.
 
I chose the 7x57 Mauser for the chambering for my wife's first big game rifle. I wrestled long and hard over whether to choose the .308 Win or the 7x57. I finally chose the 7x57. I have regretted it ever since, and here's precisely why:
 
Until you take a loved-one hunting, and watch a well-shot animal run off, and see the dismay on the hunter's face because they thought they missed or made a poor shot, you will not appreciate the significance of "DRT" and that oh-so-subtle difference an extra 0.024ths of an inch in diameter can make.
 
Paul

[kombi1976]

Fair enough.

[sakorick]

I've been a good boy and kept my mouth shut because I hate "picking" for someone. But were I to pick a deer rifle out of the three, I would choose the 25-'06 for nothing more than they are very docile and deadly. Next would be the 7MM Mauser and unlike Paul, I have found the cartridge to be very deadly.....save one buck taken with a Hornady SST bullet(never again)... the 7mm Mauser is docile and deadly also. Last would be the 280 Remington, a fine cartridge but a thumper on the shoulder.

All three perfectly capable of deer sized animals at great ranges.....especially the 25-'06. The 280 also doubles as a fine Elk cartridge as does the 7mm Mauser.

OBTW, Paul....the 7MM Mauser is documented to have killed more Elephants than any other cartridge. Strange things happen when a bullet hits a wild animal.....strange indeed. I wouldn't base a perfect shot run away on any cartridge.....twice and I'd change bullets.....once was enough for me. Regards, Rick.

[gitano]

"Koromojo (sp) Bill" supposedly used the 7x57 to take "thousands" of elephants.

Paul.....

[klallen]

i guess if elk were in the conversation, i'd opt for the .280 .  as it's just deer, i have no need for the added umph that the .280's capable of churning up.
 
i've enjoyed success with my .25-06 deer hunting but have always kinda considered the quarter cal one of those tweener calibers.  a good varmint caliber, a good big game caliber, not really great at either.  i say that even with the success i've enjoyed using the 110 gr. accubond.
 
leaves the 7-08 by default, i guess.  a good bullet from an accurate rife on deer at 200 yds., it'll give ya all that's necessary.  more then's necessary, really.  that size game and those ranges really won't test the capabilities of many rounds.
 
find a rifle you like in the price range you can accept, learn to shoot the thing and roll.  good luck to ya.  klallen