Range Report - CZ550 and PH1100 in .22-250

branxhunter · April 05, 2010, 02:45:29 PM

As some of you may remember I have been playing around with my brother-in-laws CZ550 and a friends Parker Hale 1100, both in .22-250Rem. It has taken a while to find the time to refinish the stocks, develop up some loads and send them down range, but here are the results for the CZ:

[ATTACH]12189[/ATTACH]

and for the Parker Hale:

[ATTACH]12190[/ATTACH]

All loads used Winchester cases and CCI large rifle primers.

For the CZ, the stand-out loads seem to be:

1. 38.5gn W760, Barnes 36gn varmint grenade for 15/16"
2. 41.ogn W748, Barnes 36gn varmint grenade HP for 5/8" (3 shots if flyer excluded)
3. 37.5gn W760, Nosler shots 55gn SP for 13/16"

For the Parker Hale:

1. 39.0gn W760, Nosler shots 55gn SP for 9/16" (3 shots excluding fouling shot)

I think the owners should be happy with the results,

Marcus

Mark R · April 05, 2010, 02:57:13 PM

Looks like you got them both shootin pretty good. No 22s for me as of yet 243s to 35s but when I get a little extra money I think I'll have to try one. Probaly a 22-250.

sakorick · April 05, 2010, 03:39:30 PM

I'm a little dense......what is a fouling shot? I really can't read your results...Please use a felt tip next time. From what I can see, the groups looks pretty decent. Regards, Rick.

Jamie.270 · April 05, 2010, 04:14:25 PM

Quote from: sakorick;105482I'm a little dense......what is a fouling shot? Rick.

Some guns shoot quite differently with a clean barrel than with one that's had a round or two through it.
The "fouling shot" dirties or "fouls" the barrel for more consistent groups thereafter.

branxhunter · April 05, 2010, 04:31:53 PM

Quote from: sakorick;105482I'm a little dense......what is a fouling shot? I really can't read your results...Please use a felt tip next time. From what I can see, the groups looks pretty decent. Regards, Rick.

Rick,

Jamie is onto it - the fouling shot is the first after the rfile has been cleaned. In this case the shot was the first after the rfile was cleaned and put away 3-4 weeks ago. I find that in such cases the first shot is usually a little distance away from the following ones that are fired through a "dirty" bore. Apparently the sign of a very good barrel is when the point of impact from the first shot out of a clean barrel does not differ from the following shots.

Rick I apologise for tthe clarity of the photos; I had to resie them down significantly to be able to post to the forum. Close-ups of individual group[s, and use of a thicker felt tip pen, might get around the problem.

Marcus

sakorick · April 05, 2010, 05:50:03 PM

I see. My opinion on this subject has changed drastically over the years. We have had protracted discussions on the cleaning subject on several occasions. I consider your "fouling" shot as part of the group......here's why. If you clean your rifle and put it up for a month and go rabbit hunting......guess where your first shot misses? I would suggest you shoot your fouling shot at another target or through a chronograph, then proceed with your groups. The World champ long range shooter, David Tubb, goes 300+ rounds before cleaning his bore. In any case, I would at least run a few clean patches down the bore before any shooting.

My latest work on this subject is being conducted with my son's '06 Ackley......so far it's been 70 rounds over 4 months without cleaning. The groups have not changed. When they do, I'll clean the rifle. http://www.davidtubb.com/

Regards, Rick.

Mark R · April 05, 2010, 05:53:17 PM

I found it a little hard to read powdwer charges but I usualy run at least 3 foulers thru before I try the loads I'm testing. Which is I'm sure most do. 1 or3 whatever works for you. I use bullets and powder I haven't got good results with and can spare. I don't see any reason to apologize for photos. Ihad squint a little but got the general idea but still in all decent groups. I've posted pics here in the past but not lately. Wasn't easy for me at first but got better.

Jamie.270 · April 05, 2010, 06:20:29 PM

I got in the habit of shooting "fouling shots" when I shot in the DCM. Often the ammo we were given for the match was corrosive. So we didn't have the luxury of David Tubbs' cleaning regimen.
My two DCM guns (03-A3 and NM IHC Garand) were both inspected by my shooting coach prior to the matches I shot.
He was a Marine and cleanliness of rifles was right there with Godliness.

sakorick · April 06, 2010, 03:03:47 AM

I am surprised they still had corrosive ammo! I've had good luck with the Lake City ball......still can't beat decent reloads. I can read most of the data now....put on some stronger readers:smiley: That 1/2 inch Parker Hale group got my attention. I reload for a neighbor's 22-250 and it likes 4064 with the 50 gr Nosler. The rifle is a Ruger with Bull barrel, chronys at 3720 and prints 1/2 MOA. We've had good luck with Varget too. Keep those RR's coming!

Paul posted this some time ago and it's worth the read for sure. http://www.the-long-family.com/OBT_paper.htm

It would seem just very small changes in powder and seating depth can make for some huge deviations in the 22 caliber family. Regards, Rick.

branxhunter · April 06, 2010, 01:13:47 PM

Rick,

regarding cleaning rifles, I have read with interest your discussions on how often you clean, and in the last few month don't clean anywhere near as often as I used to. Previously I would use solvent and patch out the barrel after every session of shooting as I couldn't be sure when I would next use the rifle. Now I tend to leave it if it is likely I will be using it within a few weeks. If I am not sure how long until I will next shoot I just pass a couple of oily patches down the bore.

As to only properly cleaning with solvent once accuracy starts to drop off - I am still in the load development stage for everything apart fom my .17HMR and my .222, so difficult to judge when accuracy is deteriorating. I tend to use solvent after 3-4 shooting sessions. The two .22-250s discussed in this thread are also not mine so I tend to be a little more cautious and ensure they are put away with an oiled bore.

I agree with you about firing 1-2 shots off before commencing shooting groups at targets (should also extend to before heading out to hunt) and usually do so with whatever factory ammo is yet to be used. I didn't do so in this case with the Parker Hale.

Thanks for the link to the OCW paper - interesting reading. Can I assume that if the calibre/cartridge, barrel length, powder and projectile weight are provided the OCW can be calculated? My Parker Hale .243 continues to frustrate with the inability to group - but that is a subject for another thread!

Marcus

sakorick · April 06, 2010, 01:34:17 PM

Quote from: Branxhunter;105503Rick,

regarding cleaning rifles, I have read with interest your discussions on how often you clean, and in the last few month don't clean anywhere near as often as I used to. Previously I would use solvent and patch out the barrel after every session of shooting as I couldn't be sure when I would next use the rifle. Now I tend to leave it if it is likely I will be using it within a few weeks. If I am not sure how long until I will next shoot I just pass a couple of oily patches down the bore.

As to only properly cleaning with solvent once accuracy starts to drop off - I am still in the load development stage for everything apart fom my .17HMR and my .222, so difficult to judge when accuracy is deteriorating. I tend to use solvent after 3-4 shooting sessions. The two .22-250s discussed in this thread are also not mine so I tend to be a little more cautious and ensure they are put away with an oiled bore.

I agree with you about firing 1-2 shots off before commencing shooting groups at targets (should also extend to before heading out to hunt) and usually do so with whatever factory ammo is yet to be used. I didn't do so in this case with the Parker Hale.

Thanks for the link to the OCW paper - interesting reading. Can I assume that if the calibre/cartridge, barrel length, powder and projectile weight are provided the OCW can be calculated? My Parker Hale .243 continues to frustrate with the inability to group - but that is a subject for another thread!

Marcus

Hello Marcus. It's usually copper that messes up the accuracy. I use Wipeout which involves foaming the barrel, let it set for a few hours and simply running a few patchs through til dry and clean. I rarely use a brush anymore. So as not to hijack the thread why not start a new one on the 243......I have some ideas. Thank gitano for the paper. Regards, Rick.

gitano · April 06, 2010, 07:51:44 PM

No need ot thank me, I just posted the link to it (them).

Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) and Optimal Barrel Timing (OBT) theories are good ideas, but it's difficult to hit the sweet spot exactly simply by paper-whipping. What paper-whipping CAN do for you is get you close on your starting charges and seating depths. However, you need good numbers to start with. These are complex models, and as such the old computer programming adage of "garbage in" = "garbage out" applies. The better your initial measurements are, the closer the models will get to the real sweet spot.

Paul

sakorick · April 07, 2010, 03:40:27 AM

Quote from: gitano;105510No need ot thank me, I just posted the link to it (them).

Optimal Charge Weight (OCW) and Optimal Barrel Timing (OBT) theories are good ideas, but it's difficult to hit the sweet spot exactly simply by paper-whipping. What paper-whipping CAN do for you is get you close on your starting charges and seating depths. However, you need good numbers to start with. These are complex models, and as such the old computer programming adage of "garbage in" = "garbage out" applies. The better your initial measurements are, the closer the models will get to the real sweet spot.

Paul

How true. If you recall, the program hit my 25-'06 Ackley within 3 tenths of a grain. Had I asked you first I would have saved about 40 or so shots and 2 days of testing!

I find the program hits the charge very close.....not sure yet on seating depths.....then you decide to try a new bullet and all bets are off.

Marcus, You may want to have Paul run some numbers for you on your 22-250's. Regards, Rick.

branxhunter · April 12, 2010, 02:08:42 AM

Sakorick,

I think that if Gitano could run some numbers for the CZ 22-250 that would be great. Projectiles I have on hand at the moment that would be good to identify OCW for are Nosler shots 55gn SP, Hornady V-max 50gn, and Sierra matchking 52gn HP. At the moment I am loading W760, but have thought about trying ADI AR2209 (marketed in the states under another name, will check my reload book).

On the weekend I returned the PH 22-250 to the owner who was over the moon we he shot a sub-inch group with the load I had found for him.

I am about to start another thread on the troublesome .243, would be grateful to get some OCW direction for it as well.

Will get barrel length for the two rifles above. Am I right in saying that case capacity using powder of choice is also a required data input?

On the cleaning front I too have been using Wipeout since reading your recommendation months ago. It is quite hard to find suppliers here in Australia.

Marcus

gitano · April 12, 2010, 05:59:23 AM

Branxhunter,

For the best estimates, QuickLOAD needs:

1) Barrel length - I assume you know that's from the bolt face to the muzzle, but I'll mention it anyway just in case,
2) Case capacity - filled to overflowing with some powder (doesn't matter which one, but the one you want to use is the best choice), then scraped off level with the mouth. I'd recommend using five different cases. QuickLOAD has ADI powders, so you don't need to find out what 2209 is called in the States.
3) Max cartridge length - this may be limited by the magazine or by the chamber. If it is NOT limited by the magazine, you'll need to get as precice a measurement of chamber length as you can. If you have a preferred cartridge length AND a cartridge loaded to that length will fit in the chamber, give me that value. Absent that information I use either 2/3rds of a caliber or 1 caliber seating depths. However, if I use 2/3rds of a caliber and that ends up being too long to chamber without running the bullet into the lands, you'll have to start all over with a cartridge length that will fit.

I don't shoot much .22 CF, so I don't have a large selection of .22 bullets. Most of the time QuickLOAD's bullet lengths are very close to the true bullet lengths that I measure. However, occassionally they're off by enough to matter to OBT and OCW. (Bullet length is part of the overall length calculation, which effects barrel timing.) If you want the best estimates out of QuickLOAD, measure the actual length of the bullet types you want to use.

Finally, don't get your hopes too high. This paper-whipping doesn't always work. It's worked a few times, and it's not worked a few times. In the cases where it hasn't worked, we don't know what the reason is.

Paul