More Martini Questions for Jay

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

I dunno Paul.  Seems pretty straightforward.  Here's one made to order:

[kombi1976]

THAT ISN'T AN EAR!!!!!!

And yes, Paul, I know what it means.
Twisted it a little to fit the gist of my statement perhaps though.
Please forgive me for mixing my metaphors.
Did you know it gets you drunk quicker.:D
As for 7-30, I love the idea but the case is too long for a Cadet.
Otherwise it'd be perfect for the Cadet project.
If I have a large frame project it'll be a serious thumper.

[CAfrica]

Kombi,
 
I have been following your project with some interest (and a lot of envy).  I have a suggestion, may not fit the bill but gives you something to think about.
 
How about a 357 Maximum.  The rim diameter is only .433, so very close to the 25-20.  It might fit without having to do much alteration to the extractor.  Alternatively, although this involves more work, you can turn down the rim size on the cases to fit the standard.
 
A standard 357 Magnum (which is also an option) will launch a 158gr bullet at about 1700ft/s from a rifle bbl.  The maximum will give you an extra 200ft/s without pushing the envelope. At close to 2000ft/s, even this short bullet with its bad BC will give you a point blank range of 150 to 180 yards.
 
The nice thing about this option is that bullets are plentifull and cheap and you can also work with cast bullets if you wish. 357 cases are not a problem.  357 Max cases may be harder to come by but you won't need too many as they can be reloaded several times without any problems.  If the rifle is chambered for the 357 Max, you will also be able to fire 357 mag and even 38 special bullets in it which can be used for plinking or close range shooting.
 
I would like to hear the opinions of the learned members on this option.
 
Regards.
 
C

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

I'm not sure C but I believe in his 'thread starter' he dismissed the 357 Maximum... I think he accidentaly typed it as '375 Maximum'.

I wonder what the 357 Maximum would look like and how it world perform as the .25/.357 Maximum Improved?  Someone who can determine case capacity might be able to give us some insight here.

[gitano]

I agree with the suggestion Cafrica, but I didn't include it for the reason Jay listed. I'll use Load From a Disk and see what I can come up with for a .357/.25-35 Improved.
 
Paul
 
OK, here's what Load From A Disk says about the .357/.25-35 Improved wildcat.
All of he below scenarios are using 90 grains of H4198 powder. According to LFAD, these are all "safe" charges. I used a bbl length of 24".
 
Bullet Weight . . 180 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.232 - This is highest BC for .357 bullets in LFAD
Muzzle Velocity . 2506 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 196 yds
+3" @ 108 yds carrying 1783 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 228 yds carrying 1194 ft-lbs of energy
+2.43" @ 150 yds carrying 1554 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @280 yds and bullet is -11.5" below line of sight.
 
Bullet Weight . . 158 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.206
Muzzle Velocity . 2680 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 204 yds
+3" @ 119 yds carrying 1659 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 237 yds carrying 1067 ft-lbs of energy
+2.61" @ 150 yds carrying 1481 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @254 yds and bullet is -5.0" below line of sight.
 
Bullet Weight . . 125 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.151
Muzzle Velocity . 2931 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 208 yds
+3" @ 130 yds carrying 1291 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 239 yds carrying 737 ft-lbs of energy
+2.74" @ 150 yds carrying 1168 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @180 yds and bullet is +1.72" above line of sight.
 
Paul

[CAfrica]

Thanks Guys on correcting me.
 
OK, so nice try, no cigar.
 
 
Kombi's quotes:
.22 Hornet and .218 Bee aren't too bad but they're varmint cartridges.
Give me a list of smaller rimmed rifle rounds like the 6.5x50R that would fit and I'll be very interested.
C'mon, Hondo, isn't there ONE rimmed 6.5 you know of that would suit?????
 
I'm not out of ideas though.  I've come up with the following.
 
You don't want another "varmint" cartridge, but what about something like the 270 REN.  This is a 22 Hornet blown out to straightwall configuration and fires 100 & 110gr bullets.  Velocity, even from a rifle will only be about 1700 to 1800ft/s.
 
With regard to the 6.5, I think the 6.5 JDJ would fit your description.  There are three versions of this but the one based on the 225 Win case has a case length of 1.93" and is the shortest of the bunch. (They are also made in 6mm, 25 cal and 7mm).  Rim size about 0.46 if I remember correctly. These are all "improved" versions and will scream from a rilfe bbl.
 
Two other options that don't appear on Gitano's list are:
 
32 Win Special (think the case is also about 2" long)
 
And then something I would really like, the 38-55. No special reason, just because I like it.
 
C

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

THAT ISN'T AN EAR!!!!!!
 
And yes, Paul, I know what it means.
Twisted it a little to fit the gist of my statement perhaps though.
Please forgive me for mixing my metaphors.
Did you know it gets you drunk quicker.:D
As for 7-30, I love the idea but the case is too long for a Cadet. Well, not quite correct.......the 7-30 Waters is approximately the same case length as the 25-35 or 30-30 WCF, it is based on the 30-30 case. It is my understanding that the case length of these cartridges are the maximum that a Martini Cadet action will accommodate as far as feeding is concerned. IMO, the only cases I would consider are those of the "rimmed" variety...no rimless cases need apply due to the extractor type. .284 bullets of 110gr,120 and possibly 140gr at the lower pressure levels of the 25-35 & 30-30 in the spitzer form would provide a good enough trajectory to 250 yards for the bigger game.
Otherwise it'd be perfect for the Cadet project.
If I have a large frame project it'll be a serious thumper.

Ol' John....:D

[gitano]

Just to keep things clear, the "gitano's list" was a list of parent cases, not suggested chamberings. According to Kombi, he prefers a "metric" bore. (Actually, all bores are metric, just multiply the "non-metric" name by 25.4. :) )
 
Paul

[gitano]

Jay tells me he was talking about the .25/.357 Max AI, NOT the .357/.25-35 Improved. (Which is what I put in the earlier post.)
 
OK, here's what Load From A Disk says about the .25/.357 Max AI Improved wildcat.
 
According to LFAD, these are all "safe" charges. I used a bbl length of 24".
 
 
Bullet Manu. . . . Sierra - Game King
Powder . . . . . . . I3031
Bullet Weight . . 117 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.403 - Highest BC for 117 grain bullets of "hunting" construction.
Muzzle Velocity . 2336 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 196 yds
+3" @ 111 yds carrying 1155 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 230 yds carrying 921 ft-lbs of energy
+2.3" @ 150 yds carrying 1074 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @188 yds and bullet is +.55" above line of sight.
 
Bullet Manu. . . . Nosler Partition
Powder . . . . . . . I3031
Bullet Weight . . 100 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.377
Muzzle Velocity . 2463 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 205 yds
+3" @ 117 yds carrying 1073 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 240 yds carrying 838 ft-lbs of energy
+2.58" @ 150 yds carrying 1005 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @153 yds and bullet is +2.5" above line of sight.
 
Bullet Manu. . . . Barnes Solid
Powder . . . . . . . H4198
Bullet Weight . . 75 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.297
Muzzle Velocity . 3012 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 240 yds
+3" @ 138 yds carrying 1098 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 280 yds carrying 775 ft-lbs of energy
+2.96" @ 150 yds carrying 1067 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @177 yds and bullet is +2.57" above line of sight.
 
Next post will put the .357/.25-35 Improved and .25/.357 Max AI numbers side-by-side. I find the comparison interesting.
 
Paul

[gitano]

.357/.25-35 Improved numbers in YELLOW
.25/.357 Max Improved numbers in WHITE
 
Bullet Weight . . 117 grains 180
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.403 - 0.232
Muzzle Velocity . 2336 2506 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 196 196 yds
+3" @ 111 108 yds carrying 1155 1783 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 230 228 yds carrying 921 1194 ft-lbs of energy
+2.3" +2.43 @ 150 yds carrying 1074 1554 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @188 280 yds and bullet is +.55" above -11.5" below line of sight.
 
Bullet Weight . . 100 158 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.377 0.206
Muzzle Velocity . 2463 2680 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 205 204 yds ***
+3" @ 117 119 *** yds carrying 1073 1659 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 240 237 *** yds carrying 838 1067 *** ft-lbs of energy
+2.58" +2.61 @ 150 yds carrying 1005 1481 *** ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @153 254 *** yds and bullet is +2.5" above -5" below line of sight.
 
Bullet Weight . . 75 125 grains
Ballistic Coef. . . 0.297 0.151
Muzzle Velocity . 3012 2931 ft/s
Zero Range . . . . 240 208 yds
+3" @ 138 130 yds carrying 1098 1291 ft-lbs of energy
-3" @ 280 239 yds carrying 775 737 ft-lbs of energy
+2.96" +2.74" @ 150 yds carrying 1067 1168 ft-lbs of energy
Energy drops to 1000 ft-lbs @177 180 yds and bullet is +2.57" above +1.72" above line of sight.
 
To me, the similarities in trajectory, especially for the middle-weight bullets, are surprizing. Consider also, that the .357 bullet has the larger frontal area, therefore "smacking" harder for a similar energy content, as well as making a larger wound channel.
 
I'd pick the .357/.25-35 Improved hands down. Still, it was my understanding that a wildcat failed the "I want it to be easy to get components" requirement.
 
Paul