"The End of America"

[gitano]

I've been preaching this theme for more than 20 years. While this woman is too liberal for my tastes, that doesn't mean the theme is wrong. You must get to about the 24th minute to hear her comments on the 2nd Ammendment.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
 
Paul

[RatherBHuntin]

Paul, you know I value your opinion but she sounds like a left wing conspiracy nut to me. She is smart though, takeing bits and pieces of truth and twisting them just enough to support her claims.
 
"Hyped threats that did not exist"....I think we have clear evidence that their are individuals and groups within the United States who have already and will in the future if given the chance attack. This is not a fair comparison between the US today and Germany/Italy/USSR in the past. Those dictators fabricated threats and then used the fear they generated. You CAN NOT compare the US at any point in it's history to these three countries in the early 20th century. For those that make the comparison that we are no different now than they were then, they are ignorantly ignoring the facts or have never educated themselves. Stalin and Lenin imprisoned and murdered more of their own countrymen than the Germans did, this is not an exageration. We have jailed a few hundred KNOWN terrorists (you know, caught with weapons while in the act of using them against us) and not a one has been sent off to a GULAG to die. Those Russians who met their death in frozen Siberia whould probably put things into the proper perspective if they could come back and "hang out" in Gitmo. So this is the premise that the rest of her argument is built on??? We do not stage events, declare martial law (our laws have dealt with New Orleans local politicians who abused that power when it was needed in NO), there has been no Putsch against the elected government, no Kristal Nacht against the Arabs, no limiting of anyones rights, no mass deportations or resettlement of immigrants to other areas to limit their mixing and massing as in the USSR.
 
She takes a lot of stuff out of context. A prison has been established, yet it has been in the open since it's inception. Never in the history of man has a "confino" been so open and well known. And again these are extremists who have been caught in the act and/or professed their intentions towards us. Not the political and idealogical criminals of dictators in the past. And if they're "secret" how does she know torture is happening. Waterboarding on a case by case basis is not the same as raping victims and their family members, removing limbs, inflicting pain (not to be confused with discomfort), breaking bones, beating and other abuse.
 
Her request to name one other country that had secret prisons who didn't eventually use them against their own people...how many countries can you name that have thrown off the yoke of imperialism with a ragtag people, created a government and rule of law that has lasted longer than any other currently on the face of the earth and still managed to rescue the rest of the world, twice, from the dictators and despots? One is the answer to both. We are unique in the world and nothing is beyond our abilities. She repeatedly mentions extreme actions, and if you buy into our actions as extreme then her arguments make sense, unfortunately our actions are moderate in all aspects.
 
Her only reference to a wrongly accused person was "Jose Padilla, okay he turned out to be not so great, but it could happen" . Yep so far, we are right on the money. Anything could happen, but as long as "60 Minutes" and "20/20" will save us.
 
 
I have never laughed so hard as when she insinuated it was President Bush's influence that caused the kid to get tasered at UF. The line of succession apparently goes, Pres-Jeb Bush-State Legislature-Board of Regents-UF. WOW< where to begin...the kid was criticising a Democrat, W probably would have liked to see him go on, the Legislature is not accountable to the Governor, that's a huge stretch. Yep, again she compares Goebles to this situation, which is an absolute farce.
 
Additionally, in no way have any of our checks and balances been removed. Last I checked, Congress still makes more decisions than the President.
 
I couldn't make it any further through her fantasy than this point.

[gitano]

RBH, I too respect you opinion, and spent the last half hour responding to your comments. Unfortunately, the post went "into the ether". I have to leave for the time being, but I wanted to let you know that I'll be back later with comments on her presentation and to address your comments.
 
Paul

[gitano]

Well Glenn, I respect your opinon too; we disagree not in detail, but principle. Much of your ciriticism of the specifics of her examples I would agree with. I was making all sorts of comments and snorts as I was watching her presentation. Nonetheless, I have read a great deal about the western world of the 20th century, and disagree that

For those that make the comparison that we are no different now than they were then, they are ignorantly ignoring the facts or have never educated themselves.

Your examples of the extrems of Stalin, Mousilini, and Hitler are off-point. Of course we are not to that level of operation yet. And so she stated. Her theme, that I share, is that there are too many similarities of what the dictators of the 20th century did IN PREPARATION for their outrageous culminations, to simply sit idly by and "trust" either the government or the "journalists" to "save" us. You've heard me say it before - it's the proverbial "boiling of the frog". I certainly see it here in this country.
 
Her initial comments - say within the first 10 minutes or so - regarding the terminology used by the Bush administration, like "homeland security" and "sleeper cells" and every one of the others, comes directly from the propaganda machines of the beasts of the early 20th century as they positioned themselves for assuming dictatorial power. The terms, AND their applicatons, are EXACTLY the same. This woman's presentation didin't bring that to my attention. I recognized them long ago.
 
I happen to believe that many of the very elements of society that she champions as indicative of "free societies" - like homo***ual "freedom" and unrestrained labor unions, are in fact destructive forces that lead to national rot. Just because I disagree with some of her pet examples doesn't mean the theme is wrong. She was exactly correct when she pointed out that when Hitler first 'got going', he 'picked on' those in the society that everybody disliked or at least didn't care about. Contrary to Hollywood's misinformation, Hitler didn't start with the Jews. In fact, he didn't go after the Jews until he had first "taken care of" ALL of those that nobody cared about - gypsies, immigrants, labor leaders... While I have NO time for labor unions - they are the definition of socialist, and socialism KILLS nations - "coming after them" is a 'bad sign'. Just because I don't like them doesn't mean I would agree to imprison their members - because if their freedoms go, mine won't be far behind. And there's the point.
 
Near the 24th minute, she discusses the 2nd Ammendment, and for all her leftist predjudice, she is a staunch, vocal supporter of the 2nd Ammendment. And in the proper context; namely protection from our government, not so we can go hunting. She points out how Bush nationalized the National Guard so he could deploy them in Iraq. Again, this wasn't news to me. I was appoplectic when he did that. She points out correctly, that the 2nd Ammendment is the ONLY protection the people now have against a nationally supervised military whose purpose is "domestic". Are you aware that the primary training for the National Guard today is training on how to "control DOMESTIC UNREST"? Ask the young fellows you know that are in the NG what their training consists of.
 
Would you really try to argue that TSA isn't a paramilitary organization? Are they kicking down doors? Nope, not yet. Neither did Hitler's Brownshirts when they were first created "to maintain the local peace".
 
Anyway, she certainly has leftist/socialist tendencies, and she knows, as a trianed journalist, how to use hyperbole. Frankly, I really don't like her. But just because the person that decides to teach themselves how to recognize poisonous snakes and is telling me that a poisonous snake is about to bite me is a socialist (meaning a member of the US democratic party), doesn't mean they can't recognize a poisonous snake when they see one. I'd be a fool to ignore their warning because I don't "like" them.
 
I hope you were being facetious when you suggested that "60 Minutes" and "20/20" are our watchdogs. There is hardly a bigger institutionalized group of methodical and systematic liars than the staff of "60 Minutes".
 
Again, I respect your opinion, but I would ask you to try to look past her predjudice and bias, and see if the theme of what she says - the US Constitution is under attack - actually has no merit. She is not saying we are Germany of the late thirties, or Stalin's USSR. She IS saying that we are doing exactly the same tings those countries did that let Hitler and Stalin assume dictatorial power. Furhermore, she, like you, IS saying the US is different, and that we are different by virtue of the Consititution the founding fathers created. If we are not careful and vigilant, we are going to lose that document.
 
Do I think Bush is about to "take over"? No. Do I think he would if he thought he had a chance? Absolutely. Do I think the the "right wing" is the one that 'wants' to take over and the "left wing" will save us? NO! BOTH parties would "take over" if given the chance, and they'd do it self-righteously "knowing" that they were doing only what was "best for the country". I was genuinely concerned when Clinton started making noises about ignoring the prohibition on three consecutive terms, and running for a third term. I absolutely believe that he was going to do it until his advisors convinced him that he couldn't win. I am just as concerned that Bush is considering the same thing.
 
Free people ARE ALWAYS at risk from their government. That is precisely why the founding fathers constructed the Constitution the way they did. It is up to us, the people, to protect the Constitution, NOT the government - regardless of what party is in the WHithouse. The government will NEVER protect the Constitution; it will ALWAYS attempt to usurp it. The certainty of this is the foundation stone of the Constitution.
 
I'll leave no misunderstanding about what I mean. The United States is behaving extraordinarily, and frighteningly similar to pre-Nazi Germany. Does this mean I think we are going to go the way of Nazi Germany? Not necessarily. But I do believe we could if we all are not fiercely protective of the Constitution. And I don't give a dam what party the usurper might or might not belong to. Naomi Wolf said nothing to bring me to that opinon. I was of that opinion long before her personal "realization".
 
Paul

[Daryl (deceased)]

Paul,
 
First, I didn't watch the video, simply because I'm short on time today.
 
That said, I can certainly agree with what you've said. I've long seen that the US Constitution is under attack from our government, and likely always will be...as long as it stands.
 
That's always been my reason for objecting to the proposition of a constitutional amendment establishing marriage as a union between a man and a woman.
 
Personally, I'll never see marriage as anything else than that, but the constitution has always been a document to control GOVERNMENT. When the government starts making amendments to that constitution to control the people, then it looses much of it's meaning.
 
Anyone else think that there might be another reason (besides the obvious) for doing this in the form of a constitutional amendment, rather than simply passing a law to that affect?
 
The government would happily void out the constitution; all we have to do is stand by and let them do it.
 
Daryl

[Clueless]

there in lies the problem we are just "going to stand by and watch"
 
I watched a portion of the video. I watched enough to know she was not giving any suggestion for changing things.
 
 
I have to agree in part with RatherB and in part with Paul. Neither is right on the money and neither am I.
 
You know what really "jerks" my chain...folks making claims, speeches..without suggestions in how to change things.
 
Do we march on Washington? Form a COO and take over the White House?
 
I learned a long time ago when I complained about something..."ya got an idea how to go about making a change?"
 
Everyone is full of Ideals...not ideas.
 
Take Martin Luther King..what did he really do, himself, for his people...Oh yes..he had a Dream...he made beautiful speeches..but..did he see they were educated, living the American dream? Given a chance for success?
 
The real Heroes in my mind are those who stood up and took a chance, sometimes in spite of certain death...
 
Be active..be smart..be everything you can be...!!
 
It's one thing to complain it's another to DO something!!
 
Anything will do...Just do something...

[RatherBHuntin]

Paul, why is it that the forum only loses posts into the ethernet when it is one you have spent considerable time on? :undecided:  I've never lost a post on here that was only a sentence or two.
 
Of all the reasons I worry about this country and where we are going, that the USA is turning into a fascist state is not even a consideration. Liberals and over-governmentalization (I made that up) is the primary, attack from extremists is painful but has no effect on the country as a whole, weaking of the drive and attitude of succeeding generations is big, and the maddeningly accepted and growing desire to suck at the teat of the nation is also a huge issue. I have far less worry of the right wing weakening the constitution than the left.
 
Many times in our past "secret" agencies have been created and utilized. They have yet to take over the government or commited the attrocities mentioned before, nor have they led to succeedingly greater infringements. Mid 1800's the Secret Service was created.  The War Department has had varying degrees of power throughout the years and then the Dept of Defense after that, but of course it's power kept in check by civilian control and the power of the purse strings that congress holds. The OSS was another secret society, which never reverted to kidnappings in the dark, systemic torture or assassinations of Americans. It's successor, the CIA is still in the same business and does not collect in the USA. The infamous NSA is not allowed to collect info on you and I, no matter what 20/20 claims (yes, fascetious somewhat though can be media in general).  
 
We have had plenty of paramilitary organizations as well.  Bear with me for a minute.  The Boy Scouts are paramilitary by definition.  As are the Civil Air Patrol, Neighborhood Watch programs and the TSA.  The difference between these orgs, as well as the secret organizations, that differentiate them from the Hitler Youth, the Brownshirts, NKVD and Youth Pioneer is the INTENT for which they were created.  Much as with the leaders of the various countries.  I cannot believe that the intent of Hitler, Moussalini, Stalin and Lenin was only to create a stable society.  I KNOW that what they wanted and desired and designed was a society where they had absolute control to act as they wanted.  I know that Americans do what we do so that we may continue to have the quality of life that we are accustomed too AND be able to enjoy Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.  Intent is key here, because it drives the end result.
 
Does the end justify the means?  Sometimes yes and only to a degree, and you only need to look through history to find precedence.   I am not so naive to think that torture has never been practiced by Americans, but I hope that when it has been employed, that the suffering of the one guilty individual who wants me dead, does prevent the needless suffering of countless INNOCENT victims.  When it comes down to brass tacks, if the choice is between an American perishing or someone else, there is no choice to make.  Much as I would rather see one of our own Soldiers becoming a casualty overseas, before I ever want to see a single innocent American civilian become one here at home.  Some things however loathesome, are preferable to others.
 
Most people are of the opinion that we are stepping on civil liberties, I think they are being protected too much at times.  I don't think foreigners deserve American rights that are guranteed by our Constitution and denied by their own beliefs.  I don't think we owe them anything.  If we want to listen to a suspected terrorists phone calls and read his text messages, then a warrant from a federal judge should be attainable, immediately.  If the suspect isn't an American, then I don't think a warrant should even be necessary.  
We are much more civil now than we have been at any point in the past.  Fifty years ago every Arab and most Muslims would have found themselves in a camp somewhere in Minnesota by the 11th of October, 2001.  
 
As long as we continue to have a bi-partisan government, with three branches of government and a bicameral legislature I do not fear for the future of our goverment.  It is when we have a single party in control of both the House and the Senate and the White House, and the 9 Old Men are predominantly of the same party that we will be in trouble.
 
As far as the NG is concerned, the ones I know are training on how to quell domestic unrest, but it is domestic unrest in Iraq.  I know of no training aimed at civil disobediance here at home.  My brother is NG, and all of his recent training was geared towards his current deployment in Iraq, as has the training of all of the Georgia NG Soldiers I am aware of.
 
Do I think that people will abuse power, sure.  I also think that it will only happen on an individual basis and will be quashed by the opposition and the People.  Another way to prevent it is like Daryl was getting at, limit the power of the Feds, who have so much more than was ever intended.  So much that they poke their noses into today are State issues or non governmental issues at all.  *** marriages, steroids, abortions and what talk show hosts are saying on the radio is not their business.
 
I know I don't have the best opinion, and all my facts probably aren't correct, but I do have an opinion and I do have an interest.  I enjoy reading others' opinions and hope that I wasn't insulting anywhere, but this is a topic that I would hope people would be passionate about.  And more important than passion is knowledge, so the more I gain the better.  I hate hearing people spew opinions based on fealings alone.  And now I have to rest, my mind is tired and I nead a libation.

[gitano]

Glenn,
 

Paul, why is it that the forum only loses posts into the ethernet when it is one you have spent considerable time on? :undecided: I've never lost a post on here that was only a sentence or two.

Ain't that the truth!

We are about 98% in agreement. All of what you said regarding the 'problems' we face I agree whole-heartedly with. The only area of 'disagreement' is in the degree of the concern over the level of fascism in this country. I'm a bit more paranoid. I am quit sure that my elevated level of paranoia is due to personal experiences as a sworn Peace Officer. I've seen the abuses first hand, and the power of the machine that "spins" things in a patriotic way.
 
I started to say I wasn't worried, but that's simply not the truth. I am worried.
 
Clueless,
Wolf does offer specific suggetions for actions, and admonishes people to take that action. You have to watch the whole video to get to that part though.
 
Paul

[RatherBHuntin]

I'm not sure what her suggestions are, and maybe I'll finish listening to her, but I know for certain that the least everyone can do is BE INVOLVED.  That might mean many things, but at a minimum folks should vote every chance they get.  If you have never written your state and federal legislatures you should.  Your federal representative may not be able to personally read and respond to your thoughts, but your state rep better.  And something else that will help is discussion, be it on line in, the work place, around the dinner table or somewhere else.

[Clueless]

I'm with you on contacting everyone in responsible positions and I have and still do many times.
 
I do vote every chance I get..even if it's just for "dog catcher"
 
I'm not past contacting the President and you will get a response.
 
I could go into detail the offices of the Federal Government I have contacted and their response..
 
anyone wanting to know who to contact re: issues you have ..just let me know and I can give you the toll free numbers...
 
There are some very good things going on in our country...but good things are of no interest to the media.. Good doesn't sell.

[gitano]

There are some very good things going on in our country...

There are some very bad things too. And clinging to the "good" for patriotic reasons and ignoring the "bad" is as wrong as the media's outrageously socialist bias.
 
Paul

[Clueless]

I admit I'm a Patriot and will be a Patriot until my last breath.
 
I also know when something isn't right and I fight for the correction of the wrong to make it right.
 
As the President of a Non Profit organization it's my business to know what's going on with the citizens of this country.  We are a humanitarian organization and our wings stretch far and cover many other organizations fighting to change the lives of Americans by giving them better choices.  Seeing they are treated as  a human should be treated...our fight  goes to the halls of Congress, the Justice Department..even to the President.
 
I, we are doing something..instead of the alternate of sitting around and complaining...
 
We are changing lives, making progress in education of our youth...giving people the  opportunity to be successful.
Giving a future to those who have no future.
 
Say what you want..think what you want...
 
I would have loved to have you walking beside me Friday...or standing in the shoes of those who have lost everything..seen their faces, heard their voices..felt their strength.
 
Maybe I would have even seen a tear in your eye.
 
When the citizens of our country become Pro active it is a sight!
 
 
Maybe it's time you decided to become proactive!!  quit the "sniveling" oration and Fight!
 
I don't care who I have to talk to or when.  I'm stubborn, hard headed and determined.  Nothing will sway my course.
 
I find it offensive for someone to talk "negative" about the citizens of the USA, claiming our stupidity...our ignorance.  
 
Someone living here in the USA doesn't like it: as far as I am concerned we have a swinging door policy and it swings both ways.
 
Go try living in Serbia, Iraq, Turkey, India, Africa....see how their democracy works..
 
 
As for me I'm staying right  here in America!!:smiley:

[gitano]

Maybe it's time you decided to become proactive!! quit the "sniveling" oration and Fight!

You don't know me well enough to make that comment to me, and you err in doing so.
 
Paul
[/SIZE]

[Clueless]

My statement wasn't  directed personally to you..it's directed to anyone who dares to complain and "do nothing"....
 
If what the gal on the video was  saying was NOT "snivling" oratory...I'll buy you a cake!!
 
She is saying we are ignorant, stupid and don't have enough sense to "get out of the rain"..and I found it offensive.
 
Did you read the comments under the video...some were more than 3 months old but I read them...treason, terrorist..
 
I didn't mean to attack you personally.  Wasn't personal.  
 
Forgive me!! I'm sorry.

[gitano]

Let's see if I can't get this thread back on track. The point here isn't the messenger, it's the message. Here are the salient points of the message:
 
...If we examine the actions and activities that preceeded the rise to power of some of the world's greatest tyrants, many common techniques and practices are observed.

...If we consider the actions and practices that the previous tyrants have employed as they slowy lead their "sheeple" to the slaughter - literally - and test those actions and practices against what is currently happening in our own country, similarities - too many - are present.

...Unlike the other nations, our founding fathers conceived a Constitution that gave great power to the people to keep our government from getting out of hand.

...However, the actions taken by previous tyrants were done with a specific plan in mind. While each failed, each subsequent one learned what "worked" and what didn't. Each became more sophisticated.

...If we stand idly by expecting "someone else" (the "Consitution" somehow magically) to make sure we are not over-run by our own government, then the lessons of the past are wasted, and we are in great peril.
 
If you wish to discount the 'message' because of the nature of the messenger - "The messenger is an idiot so I'm not listening any more." - you are welcome to do so, but your contribution to the discusson is over at that point. Patriotic rants aren't the topic. Challenging each of the messenger's points, in proper context and timing, and after having heard ALL she has to say, is required for reasonable dicussion of the merits of the message.
 
Paul