With the trade of the Unertl 'scope for this BSA Martini .22 LR, I have now completed the TCR-83 trade.
It's not actually a "thing of beauty", but it is a functioning rifle with a 'pristine' bore. It's a bit beat up from my perspective, but I'm not familiar with the condition most of these rifles are in these days. I'm not sure what's "original" and what's not, but all the pieces are British-made. The other fella probably got a better deal cost-wise, but I got another Martini, and more importantly, I got a rifle that I like for a 'scope that was essentially useless to me.
The pictures are of marginal quality, but here's what it look likes:
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0496-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0497-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0498-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0499-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0500-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0501-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0503-1.jpg)
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0505.jpg)
Paul
Paul,
Looks mighty good to this ol' country boy!:bowdown: :bowdown:
Some lite cracks in the butt stock but those are easily repairable, and you how to do that. Anytime you can trade a not wanted scope for a functioning rifle is always a good deal. Good on ya!:biggthumpup:
Ol' John:Banghead: :sleeping:
QuoteIt's not actually a "thing of beauty", but it is a functioning rifle with a 'pristine' bore.
"Beauty" is usually a matter of perspective. Some want graceful lines, and a "new" appearance.
Others can appreciate function and some honest wear.
It looks mighty fine to me! Congrat's on the new rifle.
Daryl
Thanks fellas. It satisfied the criteria I have on "deals": "The only "good" deal is one in which both parties are happy."
It does shoot too. I haven't checked it for precision, but it loads and fires appropriately. I'm not worried about precision in a .22 RF rifle that has a pristine bore.
Paul
Nice shooter Paul. You're like me, doesn't matter what it looks like, as long as it shoots.
Are you going to try some of your subsonic rounds in there? I'll bet they will shoot very well. That would be a hoot to shoot sagerats with :biggthumpup:
Soooo. . . . .
When ya comin' down. I've got a place all picked out!!
RJ
To me, it's a thing of rare beauty. I just fell in love with that rifle......love at first sight. I would like to know how you guys repair minor cracks like that....I'm all ears. Regards, Rick.
QuoteAre you going to try some of your subsonic rounds in there? I'll bet they will shoot very well.
I will certainly give them a whirl, but I have less optimism aboutthe outcome than you do.
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QuoteThat would be a hoot to shoot sagerats with
I agree. I'd like to try some long range stuff - say 200 or so - and see what I could do with it. Of course that's assuming it shoots well in the first place.
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QuoteWhen ya comin' down. I've got a place all picked out!!
As soon as I can work it out. You'll be the second to know. ;)
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QuoteTo me, it's a thing of rare beauty. I just fell in love with that rifle......love at first sight.
Well, you know how I feel about Martinis, Rick. I prefer the earliest ones without the "ears", and it'd be nice if it was a "big bore", but I'm tickled with it. I hope it shoots straight. I'm really busy at the moment, so I'll tell you later how I would fix those cracks if I was so inclined.
Paul[/SIZE]
Paul, you seem to land on your feet as far as deals on guns.
That is a beauty and anything that is in good nick from that era is a real find.
Remember, people tended not to value English guns that weren't Purdeys or H&H or other of the elite crowd.
It's hardly surprising to see something like that sitting in the "well used" categories.
But Martinis, as you already know, are fun and often shoot like all get out.
I'm looking forward to a full and comprehensive range report. :D
QuoteI'm looking forward to a full and comprehensive range report.
I don't know about the "full and comprehensive", but I've got some CBs, Shorts, "regular velocity" Longs, high velocity Longs, and the SSSs, and since I can shoot these in my back yard without much trouble, I should be able to get something done in the next day or two. My doubts about the SSSs are a function more of where I live than the rifle. I've just not been able to get them to shoot from any of the 7 or 8 .22 rifles I have. The 10/22 required a special 1:10 (IIRC) twist barrel. Since some other folks
can get these bullets to stabilize in their 1:16 twist rifles, I think it's a combination of altitude and temperature. Anyway, we'll know soon.
Paul
Thats a great little rifle Paul, of course the proof is in the shooting.
A great trade for something you had no use for.
I can remember years ago those BSA Martini target rifles being sold off quite cheaply. Of course I should have bought a couple back then. Ah, the ignorance of youth! :Banghead:
Thanks guys.
I have seen several of these "tricked out" with new stocks, new bluing, new sights, etc. and they are very 'pretty'. The ones I have seen were all going for more than $1000 - some, considerably more than $1000. The "stock" ones, like this one, I've seen in $600 range. I like that this one is all "stock", at least as far as I can tell. I'm just fine with the "deal".
Maybe I'll get a chance to run some rounds through it tomorrow.
Paul
There is a graceful simplicity about them in their original form.
If you can oil-finish the timber and freshen up the original bluing as I have seen them done they are truly lovely pieces.
Paul, I'm sitting here drooling & taking that gun apart & converting it to another 17 Rem. or 223. Especially if it is the thick walled variety which it appears to be. I have all the tooling for boring out the threads in the reciever & rethreading it to 13/16-16 threads. Thats what I did with the only thick wall Martini I own. Made a new stock & rebarrelled it with a new takeoff Rem. 700 barrel. ......If this is actually a thick wall action, I have on hand a well used but nice stock & fore end piece that will probably fit. It has a steel butt plate tho. With refinishing and fore end checkering recut it would be really nice. No cracks in it anywhere. ..........Paul H
beauty is in the design. cosmetics can be fixed easily.
If you look at the 6th picture in the sequence Paul, you can see the top of the receiver and the barrel as it enters the receiver. The walls look "thick" to me, but I don't know what "thick" is in this case. The barrel itself is what I would refer to as a "bull" barrel for a .22 RF.
Paul
Paul, the diffrence between thick wall & thin wall is about .100 in. On the Cadets, the sidewalls are approx. .100" thick. The thick walls are approx. .200" thick. Normally the 'guts' in both are the same and interchangable but headspace might not be right. Attaching a picture of the stock I have on hand for the thick wall version. All the thick wall versions I have observed have fairly heavy barrels. Normally about 3/4 in. at the muzzle. Apparently all of the small framed Martini's use the same 3/4-14 British thread on the shank. The International target types might have diffrent threads. ..........Paul H
That's a pretty little rig. Too bad I traded off that trap gun or I'd be tempted to swap you.
Paul, been doing a little research on your BSA Martini with my limited information. According to the books, it is a "Centurion" model. Very similar to the #12 and using that action with modifications. The major modification was the lever shape and pistol grip stock with cheekpiece. The barrels were of very high quality & were guarnteed to shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards. The rear sight is a BSA #30 apeture sight. The front sight is a hooded tunnel type with four intrechangable apetures. .........The gun is 44 inches long and weighs 9 pounds seven ounces. The barrel is 1" od at the breech and 3/4 inches at the muzzle. Apparently the barrel is 29 inches long. Sight radius is 31.5 in. ..........The fore end piece is 16 inches long with sling attachment on the fore end instead of the barrel. ........Apparently these guns were made until about 1950. They were available in 1939 and I assume they were available before then. Apparently the rear sight has a 'disc' with diffrent size apetures that can be rotated into position. The barrel can be cleaned from the breech by removing the guts from the action and cleaning through a hole in the rear sight. ...........Best I have to offer on identifying it. .......Paul H
Very cool, Paul! I now know a great deal more about it.
I suspected the rotating disc at the rear sight, but hadn't had a chance to fiddle with it yet. As a matter of fact, I intend to do some shooting tomorrow. Speaking of shooting, 1.5" at 100 yds ain't too shabby for a .22 RF. If it can do half that good I'll be tickled pink.
Thanks again for the info.
Paul
Promted by Paul's information, I decided to 'get to know' the little BSA a bit better. For me, 'getting to know' means complete disassembly. And so I did.
Wasn't much to it really. One screw removed the forearm.
One screw-pin allowed removal of the action from the receiver as one unit. Pretty neat really. Once the action was out, only three pins needed removal, (finger pressure only required), to get almost to the elementary parts. One pin to remove the breech block with included firing pin and spring - total, three pieces. One pin to remove the kocking pieces and lever - three pieces. One pin to remove the extractor - one piece. I didn't remove the trigger spring, trigger, or sear. Wasn't really necessary. The breech block, action frame, and extractor all had the serial number on them. No other pieces of the action did.
As Paul pointed out, there is a hole in the rear of the receiver through which one can run a rod into the barrel for cleaning or clearing a plug.
Two screws for the buttplate, revealing the screw hole. One butt screw and the butt was off. It has a British proof cartouche in the lever channel.
The rear sight has six apertures to choose from, and precision adjustments on the sight. The aperture is dovetailed into the sight base, and is held in place by a spring-loaded release. The rear sight model is "PH 7A" - Parker Hale 7A. The front sight is dovetailed into the barrel, and is a model "FS .22" which I take to mean "front sight for .22". It has replaceable apertures.
So... the more I handle this rifle, the more I like it. Its cosmetics are a little off-putting, but I can see great potential. I think it will get a new finish on both wood and metal. The forearm is missing the rear sling attachment, but that is easily replaced. Stripping the exisiting finish will be easy, and sweating out the dents will be too. It is a nice piece of walnut. The screws on the support rail appear to be replacements, and look like they were replaced by someone grabbing the first screws they came to in their screw drawer. I'll replace those.
The butt needs some attention. There are no dents or scrapes that can't be sweated out, but there is the issue of the crack where the butt meets the receiver. That is actually one crack that stretches from one side to the other behind the receiver. So Rick, here's how I will fix that crack.
First, I will remove all the existing finish. It's important to remove all old oil and finish if adhesives and new finish are to grab. Next, since these are only very slightly larger than 'hairline' cracks, I'll see if I can close them by hydrating ("watering") the crack. If I can close it by wetting, I'll let it dry and open up again. Then when open, I'll get some cyanacrylate glue (CA or "Crazy Glue") in the crack, and then rewet it. When it closes, the glue will set. Cracks so repaired are essentially invisible to all except the repairer.
If wetting the crack doesn't close it completely, I'll then apply a clamp to it to see if I can close it. This has to be done very carefully to a stock that is already to finished size. One does NOT want to compress the wood on the outside of the crack. Again, since this crack is almost hairline, I have some optimism that "squeezing" it will close it. If it does, I will remove the clamp, put CA glue in the crack, and reclamp. And again, cracks so repaired are invisible to all but the repairer.
Finally, if neither of the above work, and I felt I really needed to close the crack. I would drill two 1/32nd holes in the stock through from one side of the crack through to the other. Then using a 3/64ths brass rod that I have threaded on one end and a little clamping pressure, I would put some CA glue in the crack and clamp and "screw" the crack closed. Once the glue was good and dry, I would cut the brass pins off. If I wanted them to show as a kind of "accent" (sometimes this actually looks good), I'd simply file them down to the wood and polish them. If I wanted them to "disappear", I'd file them down to the wood, then, using a properly sized nail-set, I'd push them in ever-so-slightly. After finishing and in a month or so of handling, the holes "heal", and you have to look to find them.
The bluing really needs to be redone. Oh yeah, the breech block was, at one time, case colored.
I'll be shooting this rifle tomorrow. If it shoots even "just OK", I'll be very happy with it. If it shoots completely crappy, I may be looking to rebarrel it to something else - maybe the 8x.357 Max. I really do doubt that will be necessary. It'll be interesting to see how the SSS does in a 29" bbl.
Paul
I used 5 different cartridges:
1) CCI "CB"
2) Aguila Sniper Subsonic (SSS)
3) Federal "Hi-Power" Hollow Point
4) Federal High Velocity Hollow Point
5) Unknown other than UMC Hollow Point
The first target shows the results of sighting it in - sort of. I was getting eaten alive by mosquitos, and I settled for "close". The first five shots were the Federal High Velocity rounds. The next five are CBs. That's three shots on the edge of the "10-ring" by the way. :D
Oh yeah, 25 yards, and the "10-ring" is 13/16ths inches in diameter.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0506.jpg)
Encouraged by the nice little 3-shot group of CBs, I decided to tough it out with the mosquitos and shoot a new target for groups.
In the next target, the group marked "CB" was actually WAY better. After the first two shots - the ones to the left in the group - one of the pins holding the target on the backstop came out and the target tilted a little. I didn't notice it 'til I went down to mark the shots. It tilted just about exactly how much those upper two holes are from the first two. :frown The points of aim are noted for each group.
The SSSs did OK, but I think I saw some key-holing on at least one of the shots. Also, while most of the variation on these groups is "operator error", the vertical stringing in the SSSs is not due to me.
The horizontal stringing in the group at the Roe buck's front leg is due to me being unable to find a good point of aim (POA). I was trying the aim "in the middle" of the "edge" of the target. Not exactly an exact point, AND... the front sight is a circle, not a post.
The "FHP" group isn't bad, but I'm sure the variability is due to sight picture/POA. I was trying to aim at the lower right corner of the target.
The unmarked group is actually very good. One of the shots just cut the edge of the paper. The POA for the first shot - the one to the left and not in the circle - was again "the middle" of the "edge" of the paper. After the first shot, I found a good POA off paper, and that is what produced the circled 5-shot group.
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0507.jpg)
After shooting each of the five kinds of ammo I had on hand, I was sure I could put together a good tight group with the CBs. The third target is my attempt to get a good sight picture and POA and shoot as small a group as I was capable of under the circumstances. The larger, colored, outer ring just fit inside the circle of the front sight. Using that as the POA, I shot the 5-shot group marked "5 CBs". Yes, those three holes are for 5 shots. I like to hit what I'm aiming at, so I put a mark low and right of the bull, and shot the second 5-shot group you see. Those four holes are five shots - one in the "9-ring", one high in the bull, and three in what looks like two holes touching. :D
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/BSA%20Martini/IMG_0508.jpg)
I am quite pleased with this rifle.:yes: :yes: :yes: I am so encouraged by these groups, that I think I'll tape a 'scope on it and see what the rifle can do with a good sight picture and without the handicap of my aging eyes. I feel quite confident that it can put 5 (or more) shots in one ragged hole at 25 yds.
I s'pose I'll keep the .22 bbl on it... :D
Paul
Really good for iron, Paul. Those circle front sights suck in my book. I love peep rear sights any more tho. I just bought another 22 to play with about an hour ago & it has a Williams rear & front hood with the circle in the hood. I'll post pictures in another thread. ..........I love the Martini SS actions. They have one of the quickest lock times anywhere. Not quiet as fast as a 511 Rem. or 219 Savage but close. Repairing & refinishing the stock is no big deal. Go for it and enjoy a really nice rifle. ..........Paul H
Told you it would shoot well, Paul.
Top little rifles they are.
For those who missed it, the wonderful 8x .357 max, the second most useless wildcat known to man, MAY be seen in an attachment to this post, I am not having much luck editing pictures lately.
:frown
No luck, still 30 k bits too big.
It is the .357 max, 1.6 " long, 1.3" body, .3" neck, 20' shoulder.
Only excuse to exist is to make a super cheap ss rifle with a 8mm turk barrel on an old .410 shotgun action and do it with a 7" chink lathe and some hand tools.
Woo Woo!
Quotethe second most useless wildcat known to man
HEY!!!:frown I happen to like that wildcat.
Paul
Try again!
What a mess, I have no idea what I did, but it cut the pixels in 1/2 so it did post this time.
That is a 200gr gc cast bullet, [imagine that], intended use is middle sized and smaller varmints at 1200fps or so and later try some 100 to 120gr at 1800fps or so for longer range work.
This should be about like a .32-20 on steriods.
Hi Gitano,
Well I missed this as I was MIA so to speak from THL :( but I'll jump in very late.
It's not a Centurion as the stippling upon the barrel is not there so it's a Model 12/15. The inserts for the P-H FS22 fore sight do crop up but be advised they are smaller than those for the Full Bore rifles. I got caught out and brought a load before finding out they didn't fit.
Now if that butt stock is worrying you then if you have not sorted it our by now I happen to have a complete matching stock set from a 12/15. it does not have the buttplate but you have that already and a fairly good one too. They often show the steel inner out the bottom ,toe, of the plate.