1873 Springfield Trapdoor

[JaDub]

I`m being tempted by an average condition 1873 Trapdoor,  serial #313027.  Wondered if anyone had thoughts about collecting or shooting these?
  Thanks,  Jadub

[gitano]

Personally, I've avoided them because they are the very rifles referred to when "reduced loads required" is the qualifier for the rifle. If I'm gonna go with "reduced loads" as mandatory, it's going to be in a muzzle loader for the most part. These rifles simply haven't been able to get my juices flowing. I've nothing against them, I'm just not interested. It's like chocolate... I don't hate it, but it's easy for me to resist.

Paul

[JaDub]

I`m with you on that one Paul. From a history standpoint it`s an interesting piece however looking at it , it doesn`t get me too excited. That said, a Spencer or something similar is simply out of my price range. I keep hoping to find an auction that is filled with the uneducated. .........fat chance, but, ya never know.
 
  I have to admit that I do enjoy the fastination of having and owning a piece of history. Something about holding or owning a Civil War Spencer or the like is a very kooool thing. The old adage of " If they could only talk" would truly be amazing. My roots came into this country during the CivilWar and setteled / homesteaded in the western Minnesota plains area. They left quite a legacy that is simply fastinating to me. Owning parts of their past helps transport back to a time that I find extremely interesting. Guess I`m doing this gun -thing to vicariously put me back in time. I challenge anyone to visit the Custer Battlefield and not get a chill up your spine.......... it`s very spooky medicine.

[22hornet]

I don't know too much about "Trapdoors". I do know that some Italian firm was making good reproductions, not sure if they still are. And to my eyes, I like 'em!
But as to the "reduced load" thing.....that was the "standard" load for the good old .45/70 many years ago. Just because you can't hot rod something doesn't make it a bad thing. Even a reduced .45/70 load is a big hitter. A 45 calibre, 405gns of lead will still do nasty things.

[gitano]

You're right about the original .45-70 load Hornet, but I'm not interested in 'hot-rodding' anything. That original load was really anemic. You're lucky to get 1200 f/s out of it, and I'm not even sure a rainbow accurately describes the trajectory. No doubt one could hit big targets like buffalo at fairly ong ranges, but it's not hard to find a buffalo that wanders off 'a ways' when there isn't a tree for 100 miles.

Like I said, I have nothing against their use and particularly if you "like 'em", as you say you do. Go get 'em!

Paul

[recoil junky]

Dad had one that I dearly wanted to shoot, but it was "borrowed" before I was big enough.

Like Jeff, I'd like to have one for the "history" value of it. And yes the original loading might have been anemic at 1380 fps, but it helped "Win the West".

RJ

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

JaDub,

This post of yours really 'hit' the nostalgia button for me. Many years ago...I guess I was about 16...a friend of the family gave me a 1884 Springfield trapdoor in better than good condition. It was a rifle, not a carbine. I was anxious to shoot the ol' feller and obtained a box of UMC 45-70-500 cartridges. The box was unusual in that it was completely sealed. To open the box you had to use the string attached to the box and pull it around the top half of the box. That box today would probably be worth more than the rifle.

Anyhow...to end the story...I worked part time on a dairy farm west of San Antonio and I took the rifle/ammo with me one day. There was an old dead Liveoak tree in the yard. I inserted a cartridge into the chamber, shouldered the rifle and let fire.

..................click.........BANG..!!!!!! There was perhaps a quarter of a second lag involved. Very disconcerting to say the least. The base of the 500grainer penetrated the tree just enough that the base of the bullet was even with the outside of the tree.

That was more than 50 years ago but I remember it like yesterday. Isn't it strange the memories we keep and those we discard...

I hope you opt to give the ol' girl a new/better home.

Ol' John...

[gitano]

I'll tell ya RJ, I stuffed, crammed, jammed, compacted, rammed as much black powder as I possibly could behind those 405-grain bullets I have for my .45-70, and I could NOT get it above 1200 f/s. That was using the H&R Buffalo Classic with it's 32" barrel. It may have 'won the West', but that's at least in part because of it's 'competition'.

It sound's like I'm bad-mouthing the thing, and I'm not. I'm just explaining why getting one doesn't really 'light me up'. It's one of those "redhead, blonde, brunette" things.

Paul

[JaDub]

Oh..........   but I like `em all.  8-)

[gitano]

Oh..........   but I like `em all.  8-)

That's because you're a gun 'pervert'...

:D

Paul

[JaDub]

Guilty as charged.........  

[recoil junky]

From what I've read in the old Lyman and Belding and Mull manuals, (and if I remember correctly) a 3/8"X 24"  brass drop tube is needed to get "all the powder in".

And maybe, just maybe Black Powder was stronger back in the day.

Somewhere I've got a 1949 or 50 American Rifleman that "tells all" there is to know about the 45-70. I think the article is by A.O. Neidner. I thought it was here by the computer, but it's not. I will find it and fill "us" in on the secrets.

The one Dad had was a rifle also. I can remember trying to hoist it to my shoulder to prove I was big enough to shoot it, but I never quite got the barrel off the ground.

As far as being gun preverts, ain't we all?

RJ

[Alboy]

That's because you're a gun 'pervert'...
 
:D
 
Paul

Guilty, and so happy at it

[JaDub]

I caved in to the 1873.    Much nicer than I was led to believe.  I`d call it a good 75 to 80 % er.

[JaDub]

[JaDub]

[JaDub]

[JaDub]

[JaDub]

[Alboy]

Yep I like 'em and that one looks in fair condition.
 
You are ready to go to a military shoot off now, may have a little trouble against the repeaters in the rapid fire part but that is an isuue style weapon. Good luck

[JaDub]

[JaDub]

[JaDub]

Thanks Alboy. I`m looking forward to shooting it a bit but certainly not to wear it out.  This is an arsenal refurb. It was manufactured in 1884, used heavily during indian `containment` and refurbished, as I understand it, just before the Spanish-American war but I see no sign of it being re-issued.  If it was re-issued  it was treated with kid gloves.  When I removed the butt plate , to my surprise,  written in pencil was :
 
        "  W.H. Bidwell    Co B   Benton  IA"
 
 Now I`m trying to find out more of who and when `Bidwell` was a player.  If anyone can help shed a bit of light on this guy I`d be pleased to hear.
 
  Cheers,  JaDub

[gitano]

VERY nice!

I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots, and how it feels to shoot it. Do you intend to use black powder, a black powder substitute, or 'smokeless'?

Paul

[recoil junky]

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!

So, when did you say you was comin' over??

RJ

[JaDub]

Well, I`m gonna be nice to it. Even tho some folks seem to think it can be loaded with current powder I will probably `experiment` first with black powder for maximum `effect` then later on maybe something a bit more serious. At this point I don`t have any ammo for it and am happy just to read-up on it and try to trace some of it`s history. I`m hoping I can find out some more info on "W.H. Bidwell". As to "comin over"......... 8-)

[recoil junky]

I`m hoping I can find out some more info on "W.H. Bidwell".

A very worthy thing to do. Mr Bidwell might turn out to be someone of importance.

As to "comin over"......... 8-)

Hey, the coffee's always on, if not I know how to run the coffee maker. I've got some bullets you need to try anyway. Plus I'm still looking for that copy on the American Rifleman that has the boatload of reloading info on the 45-70. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  .I know right where it is . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .






RJ[/SIZE]

[JaDub]

One recipe that`s been suggested is 405 grain lead ahead of 55 grns of black powder........  yeilding 1,200 fps and 1,650 #s of torque.  I`m only repeating what was recommended so don`t  lean  on me too hard.  

[gitano]

I get the best results in my Buffalo Classic with 405-grain bullets, but not with BP. Based on my experience, I'm pretty sure I couldn't get close to 1200 f/s from 5 grains of BP. In fact, I'd be surprised to get 1000. HOWEVER, that doesn't really matter. In this firearm, you're gonna wanna shoot what "works" for you. It really doesn't matter what the MV is, as long as you hit what you are aiming at and know what your range limits are.

My question about 'what powder' was actually about "what powder", not "how fast". RJ has reported good results with 2400 and if I remember correctly, about 1200 f/s. That's a very reasonable load for use in a firearm designed to shoot BP cartridges. The advantage of using non-BP is that you don't have the clean-up that BP DEMANDS if you want to keep your firearm in good repair. Also, having now used TrailBoss, I can say that it is a genuine suitable substitute for BP loads, and that was what it was designed for. So that's something to think about. If you go looking for cast bullets, don't overlook the Oregon Trail Silver Bullets in 405-grain. They shoot very well from my .45-70s, and are reasonably priced for 'over-the-counter' cast bullets. The last box I bought was $60 for 250.

Paul

[JaDub]

Paul,
What powder do you like and what load would you recommend for this old girl?
I have to start somewhere and it would be nice to start `in the ball park`..........maybe even a home run right out of the dug-out.
 
I priced out some 45-70 `government` cases today at Bass Pro.......
 
Remington  $39 for 50
Winchester $32  "   "     they look pretty much the same to my uneducated eye.

[22hornet]

Great rifle JaDub:COOLdude:A fantastic find that will only get harder and harder to get as the years go by.
I am really looking forward to the range report. Or maybe a short video clip of loading and shooting the rifle made by yourself and RJ? :smiley:

Paul, information from ADI says that Trailboss is not a black powder substitute, rather a bulky smokeless powder that will produce a low velocity. ADI says that using a compressed load of Trailboss will result in dangerous pressures.
But then again when TB first came out they said not to use it in bottle neck cartridges too....
Please keep in mind that I have never used TB and you have, I'm just relaying the manufaacturers information and being cautious, thats all.

[gitano]

You're right 22hornet, but that term "black powder substitute" is easy to be misinterpreted. I meant something that can be used (substituted) that produces black powder pressures.

The reason TrailBoss will produce high pressures when compressed is that it is HIGHLY compressible. I strongly suspect that you can compress its volume to at least half its uncompressed volume, and maybe even more. That means that you could, with compression, get a double load into a case.

Paul

[Paul Hoskins]

I realize this is an old thread but I've owned three 45/70s & not paricularly enamored with any of them. I still own one built up on a Winchester Hi Wall action. My grandfather gave me the  actual 1873 carbine he used when he was in service in 1898. He was issued a Krag rifle later while he was in Central America. He also gave me the Krag, which I still have. The 1873 was in almost perfect condition. My father sold it from under me for $9.25. I liked the 1873 better than the '96 Krag. I still have part of a box of old Winchester baloon head cartridges grandpa gave me. The box finally discentigrated. It was marked "For the US 1873 Springfield carbine." A real collectors gem today if the box was still intact. A gun dealer friend gave me an 1873 rifle that had been wrecked by some ijit. The long barrel was bent at about a 20 deg. angle & there was 9 pieces of the stock. I straightened the  barrel & cut it to 21 inches & epoxied the  stock back ttogether. Killed three deer with it & gave it back to the friend that gave it to me. I always used 2400 powder in it & 500 gr. cast bullets. You don't wanna know what the hot loads for the Hi Wall is. ....Really nice rifle you have there.   .....Paul H

[gitano]

Sorry JaDub, I didn't mean to snub your questions.

I don't have a 'pet' load. For BP I put as much powder in as I can, then I PACK it as tight as I can then I put some more in and keep doing that until the bullet won't seat any deeper. With that and a 32" barrel I can scrape together about 1250 f/s for a 500-grain bullet. And I MEAN I PACK it in. I compress it until it is essentially a solid. JayEdwards suggested a 10% charge (7 grains) of 5477 in first to help with 'cleaning' the bore and ensuring ignition.. I do that, and it seems to work.

For my non-BP loads, I have used 3031, and 4831. Not particularly happy with either. The 3031 is supposed to be 'good', but it certainly doesn't give me "good" groups. The 4831 'sloshes' around a but too much for my tastes. I haven't tried TrailBoss yet or RecoilJunky's Bullseye, but I intend to. 2400 sounds good too.

Sorry I couldn't be more help, but I have found anything that I like well enough to recommend.

Paul

[JaDub]

Thanks for the recomendations. I just happened to buy a box of `mystery ammo` at auction and ended up with 7 full boxes of factory loads for the 45-70. They were listed as `U.S. Government 45-70`. After researching these loads I found that these loads are specifically made for early 45-70s. ie. Trapdoors and early / vintage rifles. Once the weatrher warms up a bit I`ll try lighting off the old smoke pole and see what happens. I`m envious of you guys that can just walk out trhe back door in your birthday suits and do a bit of shoot`n. If I did that here I`d be locked up for several  reasons. 8-)
 
Cheers, JaDub

[gitano]

I don't recall hearing about how the shooting of this rifle turned out, JaDub.

???

Paul

[JaDub]

To be honest with you I just plain havn`t had it out to the range much.  The last time out I was able to put it on paper at 100 yards but I didn`t have the time to dial it in. It was obviously sighted in for 200 yards  + so it took a couple of shots to hole the paper.  I WILL shoot it again soon  & I`ll get back to you on its` performance.   It does make  a wonderful noise and the shoulder push isn`t bad.    Stay tuned !
 
 JaDub

[sakorick]

I like things that make noise! I think you will find all those old military rifles were sighted in high at 100 yards.......remember, they were shooting at cavalry so you aim between the horses' ears, make noise and the rider falls off! Looking forward to a range report. Regards, Rick.