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Chilling to read the OP above, all this time (and 'stuff') later. Chilling in it's accuracy and accidental foresight (as opposed to rear sight :D )

Anyone else notice the sudden (and somewhat welcome) silence of the 'abortion lobby' (you know, the crowd who scream 'my body, my choice') over the past few years? Curious huh.

As for the view from here (UK), just a taste of what so many 'trusting and obedient citizens' went through, and continue to go through (while being attacked and called names if they dare to mention their plight)...

TEST POST

SmokeyJoe Testing Testing Testing

C:-) C:-) 8) :o

I can't comment any better than to simply quote your signature line: ""We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful." ~ C.S. Lewis."

Sadly the lawmakers also apply that concept to the wonderfully evolved functional tools which once were called "working dogs" and now are more often seen as appendages to fashion and image. How long before we DEvolve fully? Oh dear.

Ha, I do now! Great looking pup. lovely thick coat too

Oh what's the point?! :D

WOW! There is a lot of information there and good information. I don't need a trials dog, i.e. a Ferrari. More like a Mustang, i.e. a dog that I can trust to return when I call it, will fetch, point, and retrieve birds. And not be gun shy or yank your arm off when you try and take him for a walk. There is a place locally that does gun dog training. They do classes on Saturday mornings or even individual trainings as well as a month long training where they keep the dog and you come out to work with them.

I understand what you mean when you say you don't need a trials dog, but a reliable dog all the same. That place sounds ideal, the only advice I would give (depending on what they are like there) is to keep them focussed on what YOU want. Most trainers, clubs etc have a strong direction of their own, and new dogs tend to get caught up in the flow of the club's objectives for what THEY want to achieve with dogs, what THEY think owners "should" be doing with their dogs etcetera. I could be completely wrong of course, it's a crude generalisation but one worth mentioning as I notice it at almost every club I visit. Of course some (many!) owners really do need this type of guidance, but I don't think you do, and therefore you might need to firmly remind them not to go off on tangents training things you don't want or need. I hope you don't find this is necessary but just something to bear in mind so you spot it quickly if they do seem to be "pushing" you to doing things you don't ultimately want.

If they are good at it and happy to focus on the few important things you want to cover, I am sure you will not need to spend much money to get all the foundations done properly, but the real hard work (situational and accuracy training) to take the dog up to the level you want will be your job and I am sure you will enjoy it! More to the point, you will be armed with some good methods for doing it efficiently and effectively.
 
Most of the work will be done by you regardless of whether you use a trainer or not. I would equate this to building your own house. You will be getting a good slab of reinforced concrete laid by a team of pros just so you know everything you build on top is never going to collapse due to a hidden flaw left beneath in the foundations which can't be dug up and rectified later (without a huge amount of cost and effort!). The only difference is that laying a good slab of concrete is about 1000 times easier than laying good training foundations in a puppy!

The only other advice I would give is to make sure you can get on with the trainer. I wouldn't mind a bit of arrogance, if they are good then that might not be a bad thing, you want them to be sure of what they are doing after all. But you will need a good relationship with them and they need to be good listeners as well as good at explaining what they are doing and why (as this is ultimately what you are buying, the knowledge to take this further on your own), so suss all of that out before you commit, and hopefully that first conversation will make you feel great about the decision and dying to get started, it should!

Keep us posted, and have fun!

haha, trust you to spot the catastrophically erroneous letter!

Psychological ScOtoma - Much more palatable, even if its a trick cyclist's typical disfiguring of language. 'Mental blind spot' works just fine :D

Don't short-shrift it, SmokeyJoe, tell us what you really think. :D

Naah, I prefer the minimalist approach. :D

Hunting behind a well-trained dog is as close to heaven on earth I think I will ever see. Hunting with 'partially trained' dogs is, in my experience, exactly the opposite.

Agreed there, doing anything with a well-trained dog is heaven, so long as it's the same thing me and the dog think we are doing!

I rarely get time to pop onto THL but now and then something grabs my interest and I throw in an hour or two of keyboard exercise…..this is one of those times I think!

“Yes, you can do it, you and Peanut”

I would love to say something so positive (and perhaps wishful), but I don’t know that you can do it at all. I know I can. I know some professional trainers can if they have a track record of doing so. I know some owners can too, but I also know 99% of normal/average owners can not. Of course it depends exactly what you wish to achieve with your dog, whether that’s just some basics or some very accurate training for very specific and important functions where mistakes must not happen. I am assuming you want a working dog (when being worked) which does the work WELL, every time, without a coin toss being involved in whether he will do exactly the right thing at exactly the right time. If you want that, my vote would be “take no chances” and get some professional help. Not necessarily having your dog trained “for you”, but trained “WITH you” would be my preference. Doing much of the shaping work yourself is definitely good (and wise) but the actual implanting of each command/function is best done by someone who does this stuff full time in my opinion. It’s likely that after that experience, you could approach another dog in years to come with a more confident attitude and perhaps do it all yourself second time round, but for now I would want it to be done right and the best way to do that is to have a professional show YOU how to train the dog, even if that means paying them to train the dog but with you being able to watch and see how they do it. Even then, I would say 90% of owners can’t just walk away and do it themselves, there is a lot going on which most people won’t even see let alone understand, but you have a better chance of being able to take the training further and train on your own in future.  If you can’t do that, but you can send the dog be trained for you by a reputable trainer, that’s not my ideal approach but it’s certainly better than taking a chance on being able to do something pretty **** complex on your own without any guidance from those who know this type of training inside out.

I cut all my children’s hair. I do a good job, FOR a novice. But if one of them wanted anything beyond “shorter hair which doesn’t get them beaten up when out in public” (which is my objective when I grab the scissors) then I would be happy to bung a few bucks at someone who does it day in day out, with an eye and skills honed over many years to do a much better job of it. It’s worth pointing out that if I do mess it up, it grows back. So I can’t do any more than temporary harm :). With a dog, permanent harm can certainly be done, or at least harm which can’t be undone without a LOT of expensive professional help to fix the accidentally or wrongly learned behaviours, responses, triggers, etc.

How much chance are you willing to take on getting it wrong? You have already invested heavily by choosing a pup from a reputable breeder of dogs which generally become the types of dogs you want in Rebel. Why spend good money on a good dog, and take a chance on what he develops into or how good his behaviour is? The training is more important than the dog. As RecoilJunkie alluded to, the papers and breeding is not the be all and end all of a good dog. I too have shown up some top dogs with a mutt from an accidental litter, no papers or pedigree to speak of. But the exception does not make the rule. So I would not choose to do that if I was getting a dog TO compete with (which I wasn’t), I just got lucky that the mutt in question had some awesome qualities which its 13 other litter mates did not possess and most went to rescue or were put down. In other words, LUCK plays a part. It plays a part in dogs from reputable lines too, but less so, therefore it makes sense to choose a dog based on its progeny. It sounds like you have done so there, and that’s a good start, but it is only a start. It’s equally important (more important in fact) that the conditioning and training is done well to ensure that the dog fulfils it’s genetic promise. If i had a choice of a dog from good lines trained by an average owner, or a dog from non-impressive lines but trained by a professional who had years of experience producing excellent trained dogs, the latter would be my choice every time.

I don’t know exactly what you want to achieve, or how important it is that you end up with a WELL trained dog, as opposed to a dog which just knows a few commands and occasionally comes shooting, making a few mistakes here and there. If you want a dog to perform well, it needs to be trained well. Can you do a GOOD job of it?  At this point it seems like we are discussing if you can do it at all. Maybe you can, maybe you can’t. But even if you think you can, can you do it WELL? I doubt it purely based on the fact that you are considering sending your dog to training. I wouldn’t consider sending my dog to training, for one reason and one reason only, I am absolutely sure I can train my dog to a higher standard than anyone I could pay. (Not for gun dog work I should add).  If I thought someone else could do it better, I wouldn’t hesitate to pay for that service and it would be silly of me (in my view) to try and do it myself just to prove a point, unless I was prepared to take a chance on the dog. Maybe you are happy to do that, if so that’s perfectly fine. But if you will be seriously disappointed if the dog doesn’t perform well, I would say take no chances and invest in some real expertise at least to begin with.

I have trained dogs to do just about every kind of canine work, except for gun dog work where I do not have as much experience. I have confidence I could do a good job of it, but even I would still pay a professional to at least show me them training some dogs and give me some pointers because hunting dogs are not something I have as much experience in, and I KNOW there will be things the pros know which I would only learn from years of practice on my own and would rather know it sooner than later. These things are not dog things, but hunting things. It’s a specialist area and while I might know enough about dogs to train them to do anything (as I believe I do), I am sure I would lack knowledge of all the various problems hunters come across with their dogs, so I need more info there. There is SO much going on with dogs which SO many people do not understand. Prey drive is the most misunderstood characteristic of a dog, especially a working breed, and often not even known about by most pet dog owners To make matters worse, it’s usually by far the most powerful drive in any dog. So the dog’s biggest motivation is often not even known about by most owners, but for those who are aware of it, they rarely understand how it works, why it works, and how to USE it. For any working dog, especially security, herding and gun dogs, prey drive is absolutely critical to training as it is that drive which the dog will be using for ALL of it’s work. It amazes me how many people think Border Collie’s have an instinct to “herd” sheep. They do not. They have an instinct to HUNT sheep. A very strong instinct too, so strong that they develop that “Collie Eye” which many people think is “proof” of their “herding instinct”. It is not that at all, it is the same “eye” which a leopard gives a gazelle :D. The skilful trainer knows that his job is to recognise and use that genetically-based drive/desire to HERD sheep instead of to chase and kill them. This involves keeping the drive very much alive, but to morph its objective (in the dog’s mind) to HOLD sheep in one place or MOVE them from place to place, using the “bribe” of catching prey yet never actually allowing the dog to do so. Most puppy Collies, for example on a working sheep farm, spend their time chasing the back sides of sheep and biting chinks of wool out of them. The ones that bite the most become the best herding dogs (in the right hands) as it’s a clear indication of the level of prey drive in each dog and the more the better, again when in the RIGHT hands. If left to its natural state (just relying on the dog’s instincts) that same dog would be a useless dog for herding, and many a farmer has got rid of a dog due to “biting sheep” without realising it’s the entire foundation of a great herding dog. If only they had one hour with me or someone else who could explain this, they would often realise they have a superb dog, rather than a “reject”. These strongly-driven, bouncy and predatory pups should be taught NOT to bite when they get there (which takes significant time and skill). The end result is a dog which never gets what it naturally seeks, understanding this is crucial to making sure the dogs KEEP working, otherwise the intelligent Collie might soon learn the chase isn’t fruitful and therefore isn’t worth bothering with, or might start chasing birds, cyclists, cars etc instead! (Collie owners might be nodding their head at this point!). Convincing the dog it might one day catch it’s prey, but owning it for 14 years, chasing sheep every single day, without it ever actually “catching one”, is a huge skill in itself. Understanding the dynamics of prey drive, and using it to change the natural behaviour of a dog isn’t something I can even discuss with most owners, let alone expect them to be able to do on their own. Hence I will often just DO this part of the training for them as it’s simpler, or often the only viable approach to end up with a well-trained dog. But my ideal owner would be someone who wants to learn, who watches me do it, listens during hours of discussion explaining every single tiny detail, and leaves knowing EXACTLY how their dog thinks, and how to use those thought patterns for the benefits they seek, as opposed to the very basic (but natural) prize the dog is seeking through his very simple natural motivations to find food, stay safe, and breed.  Can some owners do all of this on their own? Hmm, after a LOT of guidance, reading, and watching others, yes some can. But very very rarely in my experience. It’s not beyond them, it’s not a skill they can’t possess, it’s just a skill they do not currently possess. Just as I can’t do hair extensions and highlights, but no doubt could if I chose to learn such a pointless (for me) exercise :D

The dog has more natural instinct than any trainer and the key is to bring out the instinct.

Natural instinct to do what exactly?
The dog has more natural instinct to SERVE ITS OWN OBJECTIVES yes. The trainer has more instinct to serve HIS. Do we want a dog which pleases itself? If so, why are we training? The “key” is not to bring out the instinct. The instinct comes out all by itself, no help needed, although it can be promoted and amplified with early conditioning, but that still doesn’t teach the dog anything, it just increases his instinctive drives. But the results we are after in a trained dog are often very different (i.e. exact opposite) to the dog’s own “natural instincts”. Retrieve training is a good example, although there is no shortage of good examples in any kind of dog training. The dog’s instinct is to chase the ball, again due to natural instincts to FEED (chase sudden moving objects which are likely prey in a canine historical environment). We adjust that, if we didn’t the dog (as many do) will most likely chase, grab, hide under a bush and chew the hell out of it, in some cases eating the tennis ball. Convincing the dog to NOT do what all it’s instincts dictate, but to do SOME of them, is one “key”. Controlling a high drive dog when you want it OUT of drive (laying silently and still, waiting patiently for a signal), is another “key”. Convincing the dog the object of it’s prey is not the reward of that specific hunt, is yet another “key”. Yet another huge “key” is in learning the dynamics of prey drive versus possessiveness, and how they interact in a linear fashion. High drive dogs naturally want to POSSESS (run off with, hide, or even guard in some cases) its prey item once “caught”. Learning how to keep a gun dog’s prey drive high, but avoiding the naturally-occurring possessiveness is yet another “key”.  I could go on, there is never one “key”. To say that a dog has all the instincts it will need to perform a VERY UNNATURAL function for the handler, is about as misleading as it gets, and further backs up the idea of learning from an experienced trainer.

Turning the dog’s perception of that ball (prey) into a REPRESENTATION (trigger) of a forthcoming meal, (or even a trigger for a forthcoming chase of ANOTHER prey item), but teaching the dog the ball itself is NOT the object of the hunt, is where it gets fun, challenging, and skilful. Many people can teach their dog to retrieve a tennis ball. Not so many can do a retrieve with a piece of meat dripping in blood, or a pig’s trotter (without any doggie tooth marks left behind). This is a great way to train the retrieve as it forces the trainer to FULLY learn how to intervene in the natural instincts of the dog, yes you can chase it, no you can’t eat it. Doing that without reducing the dog’s drive to chase the next one and retrieve it, is extremely challenging for anyone except someone who does this regularly, and even then a certain amount of talent and natural affinity for a dog’s way of thinking is ideally needed.  Without extremely good verbal corrections, it’s practically impossible. Oh, verbal corrections… another “key” to successful and accurate training.

Pointing is a natural instinct as is retrieving.

Well that’s gun dog trainers out of business then. :D
Yes some things are natural instincts, retrieving is not however. Some breeds of dog have been selectively bred to have a higher propensity for retrieval of objects, generally breeds which are more biddable and have higher social drive and ‘natural obedience’ (which is simply a function of social drive - a group desire or desire to return the prey item to share with the social group, as opposed to a more ‘bullish’ self-centred solitary instinct). A bull-breed has very low natural propensity to retrieve. Labs have higher propensity. A well-trained dog of any breed has even higher :)
It’s interesting to note that Labradors and Bull Terriers didn’t just pop up out of thin air. They are the products of men. Generations upon generations of dogs bred and TRAINED and bred and TRAINED, selectively breeding them along the way to push the standards higher and higher, using the ones which respond and adapt best to the TRAINER’s chosen objectives, depending on the planned functions they had for each breed. Without good breeders AND trainers, we wouldn’t have all these wonderfully work-focussed breeds to choose from.

DON'T let the puppy have them for a toy. Tennis balls are toys.

Ask a trainer about this. The feathers ARE the toy. A ball can also be. Although neither are actually a “toy” as far as the dog is concerned, they are a prey item, but for our human way of thinking and speaking, “toy” is a valid term. I suspect what RJ means is “don’t let your dog KEEP the item, only use it in controlled sessions”. If so, I agree. But not because it’s not a toy, it is precisely that, a toy but one which the dog doesn’t please itself with and keep in his bed etcetera. The reason is because the dog will destroy it. Why? Because it’s prey, and if a dog has prey, his instinct is to chew and eat it although most dogs know if something is edible or not, but that doesn’t mean they can switch off their desire to nail their teeth into it and rip it to pieces (with the aim of finding an edible part inside). Leaving any toy with any high drive working type dog is a recipe for buying more toys. Leaving toys with such a dog, replacing them repeatedly, can reduce their drive and make them far less responsive on the training field. I doubt that would be a problem with gun dogs but I don’t know, I know it is with some working dogs. If a bite sleeve is left with any security dog for 10 seconds after he ripped it off the guy’s arm, it’s time to buy a new one because it’s been shredded! He also might not chase the next guy quite so hard if he has the leftovers of the last one buried under a bush, as his instincts have already been at least partly satisfied. If he never gets to keep it and return to his den with it (like the Collie who never gets to shave the back end of a jumbuck) he will chase equally hard to do that next time, harder some people would argue, hence why most working dogs tend to get better with age until physical abilities get in the way.  

Training the dog to follow the three most basic one word commands is key. Sit, stay, here ( not COME or HEAL).

Another key! Why “not COME or HEAL”?
Question - What does sit mean? This is where this stuff gets complex and interesting to see what each person wants from their dog. For instance, to most people I meet, sit means “put bum on floor”. To me it means ”put bum on floor AND DO NOT MOVE UNTIL TOLD TO”. I am yet to meet a person hear my definition, and not change their own. How many people want their dog, when hearing the word “Sit”, to tap its bum on the floor and run off? Me neither! So Sit means do it and stay there until freed from that command. For this reason:

1. One of the most fundamental commands to teach a dog is “FREE” (use whatever word you like, or visual signal, or whistle, or ……). For me, I use “GO” or “VORAN” but matters not what is used. The point is that SOMETHING is trained to tell the dog the last command has ENDED. This simple but crucial idea solves no end of behavioural problems in confused dogs who never seem to know when a command finishes, and making that clearly defined for the dog is “key” to making his life and his world simpler to understand, and thereby far less stressful.

2. If you teach your dog to sit or down, and assuming you want it to remain there until signalled to leave that position, what use is “Stay”? Food for thought. Sit means stay. Down means stay. Even Come means Stay. What I see at many training clubs, never mind households where it is even more prevalent, is dogs told to do something, and CHOOSE when to stop doing it. Sometimes they get no response (which becomes self-rewarding behaviour), sometimes they get “told off” because they broke too early. How can a dog know when something has finished, but because 99% of dogs are not taught a free command, they spend their lives trying to work out when the hell they are actually ALLOWED to leave a position, and always failing I might add. Confused dogs abound.

In my opinion, the first and most important commands any puppy/dog should be taught are, in order of priority:

NAME
YES (i.e. good boy)
NO (i.e. PSSSH, NO, STOP, AH AH……etc)

Until the dog knows those three, nothing else can be achieved with anything like the accuracy I would want in any dog I own. More importantly, it makes the dog learn much faster, and much more FAIRLY, it’s unfair to start training without a dog knowing when it did right and wrong by a verbal command, and leads to people using leashes and collars to try to transmit their disapproval which is when it begins to go wrong in my view. The NAME is not a tag (to humans yes, not to dogs). The name is a COMMAND. In my dogs it means “LOOK AT ME WITHOUT MOVING”. It’s just an attention-grabber. Some owners want their dog to come to their name (against my advice, but each to his own) and so this can be done instead, but what if the dog is sitting in the middle of the freeway and you want to get its attention to down the dog without it moving… thats my logic anyway. Name means “give me your undivided attention without moving” (and a clicker works wonders for this), YES means “you did good”, NO means “STOP THAT” - its not a punishment, it’s a POSITIVE command (takes some time to understand that!), which the dog is rewarded for obeying.

Once a dog knows (and I mean KNOWS 100%, taking as many weeks as necessary to ensure before moving on) these basic foundations, it can then be trained with what most people think are the most important early commands. To me that would be a recall, down and/or sit (i find sit fairly useless and for high drive dogs a bit unfair to expect of them when in drive), and then the others as needed. Heel for some dogs is crucial (herding dogs or guide dogs for blind), but counter-productive for others (certain security, police or military dogs) so its then down to what is needed in each dog. But the NAME, YES and NO are three things I think every dog should know before attempting anything else. I am yet to meet someone (trainers included) who do this, so I know it’s not something you read/hear very often, but in my experience it makes a WORLD of difference, as much for dogs as for their handlers. When I have retrained badly trained dogs, I often change their name and start from scratch, just to remove all the negative connotations (mistakes) implanted by others in the past. With the new name and a newly trained YES and NO, the change in these dogs is incredible, often physically apparent in their coat condition and general demeanour within a matter of days/weeks, never mind the obedience and clear-headedness which transpires every time. It de-stresses the tasks, clears up the complex world of human emotions and confusing communication signals we humans inadvertently employ with these simple creatures, and gives extremely CLEAR boundaries. Dogs understand static boundaries, they do not understand (and suffer in my view) variable boundaries which are almost guaranteed if we don’t implant some crystal clear YES and NO signals. After that, the dog loves learning, and is keen to learn more. I have lost count of how many dogs I have seen at trials and obedience comps which look utterly introverted and “trapped” mentally, like the kid who is persistently bullied at school to the point he would rather sit in a corner and attract no attention from anyone. They are trapped because they were never taught clear boundaries, and therefore their attempts to get it right have been worn out, leaving a dog which would just rather do nothing than risk doing the wrong thing, which they usually only find out they have done when a load of (incomprehensible) negative emotion comes their way from the one person in the world they believe they can trust. I have many visual memories of angry handlers waving arms in the air while their dog bolts for a hiding place, usually the car. Yet a matter of half an hour training a clear and concise verbal correction would transform the life of the dog, and the ego-driven desires of the owner too! A lack of early-trained clear verbal triggers for when boundaries are reached, combined with an owner with a lack of understanding (or even awareness) of a dog’s natural and simple drives, these two things are I believe the cause of 90% of dog behaviour problems and obedience flaws. This applies as much to “top competition dogs” as it does to pet dogs, perhaps even more so due to the added “pressure” of humans who are competing rather than just living at home with their dog.



As to what words you use for commands….

Short one word commands that the dog hears everyday from the family will be what he keys on.

I can’t say it any other way than this…. do exactly the OPPOSITE of that! Short one word commands - yes, agreed. Although they don’t need to be “words” at all, whistles work better in most cases. But “that the dog hears everyday from the family” - No I can’t disagree more. You want words the dog ONLY hears when doing the exercise. If he hears it “everyday” he will become desensitised to the sound, and be so “used to it” that it will not represent much spike in his attention and as such his responses will slow down accordingly. I am so against this idea that I actually train all dogs (mine and others) with commands in another language, usually german or french but sometimes russian and even japanese, all depending on which sounds sound LEAST like other already trained commands, combining the lingual abilities of the owner too of course which often doesn’t stretch beyond cockney london shpeak. :D Hearing some of them try and speak french (a la Del Boy) is more than a tad hilarious which adds fun for me if nobody else. The last dog I trained for someone else has “PLATZ” for down, “ALLEZ” for GO (free from last command), “YESSS” for good boy (verbal reward) and “PSSSSSSSH” for NO or STOP THAT. Not only that, but the owner’s entire family are NEVER to use them. The dog only hears them from his owner.
In fact they are forbidden from being used in the house at all which keeps the dog totally sharp to them out on the field. If they want the dog to lay down, they teach a “house down” which is a softer version, and the dog can stumble over to his bed, or make a few turns before curling up by the fire. Very different to DOWN (like a Collie, instantaneous and sharp/alert). Look how different the two behaviours are, hence it’s two commands in my book. “go and lay down” is one. “PLATZ” is another. (not shouted either, just a little more sharp and not surrounded with other wasteful words and background noise.
There are various reasons why this works so well, but the main one is the fact that the dog DOES NOT hear it very often, and that the handler will never use them “by accident”, or in conversation around the home etc. If you buy a new car, you notice them when you see them on the road, yet you don’t notice hundreds of other cars. This is because of your mental interest level being higher in the car you bought (to sub consciously justify your purchase, apparently). See “Scatoma” (EDIT - Read ScOtoma in place of Scatoma, oops!) - we have a mental scatoma for cars we are not interested in, but when we see one we are interested in (consciously or sub-consciously) we get a full clear and sharp view of it as our attention is drawn towards it. That’s the same for dogs and what they hear from us. We can create a scatoma for them by using commands they hear all the time, or we can make it as rare (and rewarding) as possible when they do infrequently hear it, thus making it far more attention grabbing and interesting. We want the dog to have HUGE interest in the chosen commands. Hearing them daily when they are NOT directed at him is a guaranteed way to REDUCE his interest in them, and thereby reduce his responses to them. It’s the best way to RUIN a well trained dog! It’s another reason I often change commands in a dog I am training (which has been trained by other people). i often start by asking the owner “what sounds or words do you NEVER hear in your house”? That’s the start of the choice of commands. There is one more very important reason why this works so well, for example the last dog I trained - his owner was a security handler and also did sport competition and competitive obedience. He wouldn’t mind me saying (if he read this) that he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Explaining his limitations was part of the first discussion with him! I don’t mean he isn’t intelligent, he certainly is. But his REACTION times and speed of thought are not great, pretty awful actually, painful to watch while imagining I was his poor dog at times! I listened to him using old commands with his dog and he would often mix them up, same with his body language and visual triggers (most of which he had no awareness of). So the choice of very different commands, and in another language he can’t even speak, means that he will NEVER use them “by accident”, in conversation, or when telling the kids to “SIT DOWN” or “STAY THERE” etcetera. To tell the dog to stay he uses “ATTENDS” (pronounced “ATTON”), to tell the dog to come he uses “VENEZ” (venay). It worked like magic, because as usual, there was actually no problem with the dog, the problem was with Dave and his constant misuse of the words when the dog “was not supposed to be listening”, whatever that means!! A dog is ALWAYS listening, that’s what makes them such superb and able creatures! Teaching HIM that his dog is always listening (and watching) solved a myriad of problems. But the new commands, trained positively with clicker, prey drive, food in some cases, all very positive and enjoyable for the dog, made him respond like lightning. While I did train the dog well, it wasn’t the training which made the dog a great dog (he is now the envy of every club he goes to and Dave is constantly being offered silly money for him to use as stud, go figure?!). What made him a great dog was de-cluttering his life of all the junk, and providing a handful of triggers which he has nothing but positive associations with (all except for the emergency stop, which has a negative association and must). In short, the dog was already a great dog as most dogs are, but his hundreds of hours of “training” in inexperienced hands (as well as some experienced but nevertheless inept hands) had imprisoned him in a fog of uncertainty and mixed messages. I simply freed him from those past experiences (by de training some things which is **** hard work), gave him some new commands he has never heard and will never hear unless Dave engages his brain fully beforehand! The superb underlying dog then just emerged as if by magic. Last time I saw him, I heard Dave a couple of times shouting the old commands. The dog just didn’t respond, perfect! Then I could actually see Dave turning his thinking wheels in his head, remembering what to say, and then using the correct new commands, to which the dog responded like a camera flash. The fact he has to THINK about the commands before he gives them has reduced the mistakes (badly timed commands) by 90% or more.
So when choosing commands, my advice would be use something you never ever say, nobody in your household ever says, and the dog will be unlikely to ever hear in his entire life, except when you engage your own mind in a deliberate effort to issue that command. Obviously other people can use those commands and they will work just fine, but they won’t accidentally shout them at the telly when they are watching America’s Got Talent (sorry, no offence intended :D).

I've hunted behind dogs that were trained to death and watched as they and their "masters" were made into fools by "lesser" dogs with no pedigree or papers.

I think that simply translates to “My dog performs better than some dogs with better pedigrees who were trained to death” whatever the last three words mean. I am sure it’s true. But it isn’t proof of anything, it’s just an anecdote, and a risky one to read too much into. I have seen some women who can fight better than some men. Are women better fighters than men? I have seen female fire fighters pass the tests along with men, would I want a 5’5” woman fire fighter to run into my burning house to save my child rather than the 6’6” man standing next to her? Nope. The probabilities don’t favour her chances over the other guy, even though she may well be perfectly capable, but I would prefer to keep probabilities in my favour. It would be foolish to use this as evidence to support the argument that everyone should train their own dog and get dogs without decent papers which seems to be the intended implication.  

If you are calm, so is the dog

Generally speaking this is a very valid point and one I totally agree with.
Some other truisms…
“If you are accurate, so is the dog”
“If you are talented, so is the dog”
“If you are disciplined, so is the dog”
“If you know what you are doing, so does the dog!”

If you are calm, but don’t know what you are doing, the dog will be calm, but won’t know what he is doing either. :)
(I am not suggesting Hunterbug won’t know what he is doing. I have no idea of that)



That’s my allocated forum time up for another month :D


I will finish with a simple analogy which I think is relevant here….

Do you want a pet dog which can do a bit of work, or a well-trained working dog which is a nice pet when not working?

A pet dog is a Toyota Prius, a finely-tuned and accurately trained working dog is a Ferrari.

I would service my own Prius using a handbook off ebay, and be confident in what I am doing but aware I might make a mistake or two, easily rectified with a trip to any cheap garage.

I would take my Ferrari to the most knowledgeable and experienced Ferrari specialist I could find, I can’t afford mistakes there.

The choice is yours and you will have 10-15 years to reap the rewards (or otherwise) of your decision. He’s a cute little feller and looks packed with working potential thanks to good breeding. To me that would be a Ferrari, so paying less than the cost of the dog to ensure it became the dog it was bred (and purchased?) to be for the next decade or more, seems like an easy decision to me! I wish you all the best with the pup whatever you decide.

P.S. As Paul said, you don’t need to spend a lot on a professional, just milk as much info from him as you can over a few short sessions, then you WILL be armed with many of the necessary tools to go and do most of the follow on training yourself. Yes training will take MASSES of time, but it will whether you use a professional or not, as a trainer will train a command, you then shape it continuously after that into something much more accurate and reliable. A trainer can’t be you, he can however cement the foundations in the dog, and that’s a valuable thing. So paying isn’t a way to avoid work or time invested between you and Payton, it is (in my view) simply a way to avoid as many early mistakes as possible, and get the relationship and training kicked off on the right foot. You will ultimately be the one who puts in the many hours of training this dog, but paying to make sure YOU get it right, that’s a very wise idea in this fairly experienced person’s opinion :)

PS How's pooch doing now?

Hunting is not "killing"...... There's a difference that non-hunters will never understand.

This is SO true. I truly believe it's practically impossible to understand that difference until a person has been the lonely one behind the trigger on both tasks. As you say, language can't really explain it, it's completely abstract to anyone who hasn't done both and felt the difference between hunting something (which can escape) and killing something practically defenceless, something which really can only blame it's impending last breath on you, only you, and you alone! Couldn't be more different.
Someone local to me asked me quite recently to put down his dog. He lives on a housing estate (a very rough and busy one) and I declined because I knew I would not get out without conversations with people about it. A few weeks later I found out he called the local pound and told them he "found it straying on the beach" and got them to take it away. I now regret not doing it, I would have saved that dog a whole world of suffering, because a load of do-gooders (only doing their own ego good I might add) will now put that dog through untold stress and extended misery (no chance of rehoming it) in order to bow to their holy mantra of "never putting a dog down".  A mantra which I think is flawed from any perspective of true animal welfare. It's all about human welfare, human self-aggrandisement, humans feeling better than each other, just basically cheap egotistical competition without a single care for what would actually be best for the dog, in no small part due to the fact that the true best option for the dog would also be the hardest to actually carry out for the humans concerned.

a person needs to 'grow up' with respect to the responsibilities of LIFE

I do agree with you, but I also know that it would be unfair of me to expect, for example, my own mother to put her own dog down. Or for that matter my wife. Not so much out of her inability to do it, but her lack of ability with guns and her lack of faith in herself to do it right, clean, swiftly and proficiently. I don't necessarily feel everyone should have to do it for themselves, but I do think they should take full responsibility for it once they request to have it done. I see it a bit like a good car mechanic. My mother can't do that work, so takes it to someone who can. The real lesson I think townie society needs is that all of their lives are made possible by those folks they like to look down their noses at. Whether it's those 'misogyntistic' men who didn't allow women in the military, meanwhile fighting two world wars to defend the freedom which they can now abuse at will. Whether its those murdering farmers killing livestock and vermin, so the towns could flourish with an abundance of food both meat and veg, again enabling the expansion of urban areas and more importantly, the middle class sub-urban areas from whence all the modern "freedom" movements come! The burly heavy drinking irish who built the roads to let them drive their teslas and eco friendly vehicles, the horrible 'racist' police who are their first call when the proverbial brown stuff hits whatever fan they are near at any second in their comfy little lives....... it's an endless list of course!

"I don't want to put one of my immediate family members in the horrible position of having to make a life-and-death decision about one of their loved ones."

What a very good point! It's a tough balance between trusting a doctor (these days for me that's not easy anyway!) and putting a loved one in that awful position. But yes that's a good point and I would probably have to agree.

"Life is not simple"

I'll drink to that! If it was simple, it would be boring and unchallenging anyway. I do like to think life could be a whole lot more LOGICAL sometimes though!

Do find a pic of Baron if you can, I have a picture in my mind of a big reddish brown bear, but thats because every "Baron" GSD I have seen was always like that! Just as with so many things in life, they don't make stuff like they used to, and dogs are certainly not excluded. I wish I could go back 50 or so years in a time machine, just to pick up a dog!

Took me six months to 'screw my courage to the sticking point' to do that once.

Yes it was around 6-12 months for me, I had never done it before and I spent most of that time mulling over the idea with my wife after we watched him slowly deteriorate and had to decide when to pull the plug, some days thinking he had quality of life, other days not. But all the time getting worse.

We tried to apply pure logic and make a clean rational decision which took some real effort. We tried to ignore any other undue pressures/pseudo morality issues. The moral high ground seems to belong to the vet industry (see: shamanism) who have helped convinced people it's better, at least more socially acceptable whatever that counts for (nothing to me these days), to take a dog to their surgery and pay a complete stranger to take the responsibility away from the very people who swore an unwritten oath to safeguard that particular animal's welfare. In this case Darcy hated strangers (which was what brought the idea up in the first place) as he was badly abused when young. A stranger going near him would have sent him into a frenzy of fearful aggression in such a confined space, and with his bad eyesight and hips etc it would have been one great big mess and incredibly stressful for him, the vet would also have been very on edge and the dog would have needed pinning down to get a needle anywhere near him. Then the smells of other dogs and cats, the journey in the car...  We just couldn't put him through it when there was a kinder option available.

I have to say, as much as I dreaded it and it worried me for months beforehand, we felt extremely relieved afterwards that we did follow through with the idea. Several plans to do it were cancelled (by me) while I waited to grow the necessary courage. My wife knew it needed doing asap before he really started suffering daily, but she also knew the deed was harder on me by far so she patiently waited. By the time it was done, she was getting upset watching him deteriorate more and more rapidly, especially with more dominant male dogs around which seemed to accelerate his degeneration, in the end he stayed in one room of the house so he didn't get bulled by the others. Darcy was always firmly the top dog in a pack of up to 7 or 8 dogs on occasions (rescues in and out) and watching him lose his position, see the other dogs start to take liberties with his growing weakness (natural I know) and the effect that had on his quality of life as well as the medical issues, it wasn't nice at all.

When D Day finally arrived, I was absolutely amazed that my wife actually wanted to watch, she is exactly the opposite of the type of character you would expect to want to watch something like that, she runs away when it's time to "do some meat birds" round here as I did the other day! This was clearly very very different. It was mercy, leaving him another day/week would mean deliberately causing more suffering for him, that took any 'guilt' feelings out of the equation immediately. It just had to be done, the kindest way (for him) possible.

The decision was made on ONE premise.... I asked Sarah what she would want if she were the dog? The answer was "not to know a thing about it. To go from being happy to just NOT being, in the shortest time possible.". That sealed it. He came out into the garden with some help from us, he really wasn't very mobile. He stood and peed, the bowl went under his nose, his tail wagged (it was prime beef I must admit!) and as he was enjoying that with his eyes closed savouring the juicy flavours, life just stopped. That's from his perspective of course, the most important one at that time. We suffered more, so he could suffer less. It was that simple.  For us it was obviously much harder than paying someone else to take the job off our hands, take on the responsibility etc. We are both pleased to this day that Darcy spent not just his last day, but his last conscious second in his own garden with familiar sounds and smells, and nobody teary or emotional in sight to tip him off that anything untoward was going on or give him any cause for stress. It was just another day in the garden. With our concentration on setting everything up as perfectly as possible for the dog, we didn't have time to get upset. It was like a planned operation, which helped keep the emotions at bay. At a vets (for me at least) it seems much more charged with emotion, perhaps partly due to the process of 'handing over' responsibility to the executioner. I am letting someone kill my faithful hound, it just seems wrong that and certainly left me feeling much worse than doing it myself did (to my surprise I confess). It's the build up which is so hard. Knowing what you're going to do. That's nasty.  Even though I have done it since then, I am not sure how long (or even if) I could do it now. No, that's not true. I know if I felt it was in the best interests of a dog, I would HAVE to do it, but I don't "feel" like I could and I would probably suffer more than before. Getting older doesn't seem to help with it, perhaps that's why armies like soldiers young! There is a relationship I am sure.

I have had arguments with people over it many a time, but I don't argue any more. I just try to avoid such people as best I can, and any conversations I feel might turn into judging matches. I care deeply for my dogs, and anyone who suggests otherwise really gets under my skin leaving me stewing for weeks about it, especially when such people don't have any knowledge of me or my dogs, and usually are the type who preach animal rights while eating pork and chicken from the supermarkets' battery farms which are rife with outright cruelty and suffering (and these people can't claim ignorance to that). Only a few days after putting the dog down, I offered one such person a leg of lamb out of the freezer (friend of a friend visiting for a coffee). She was a 'social worker', I should have known better. My kids were sat right in front of her. She replied "where is it from?" I said "It's one I slaughtered a few weeks ago, home reared and organically fed, if you like lamb you will love this... bla bla". Her reply went something like "OH MY GOD. YOU ARE DISGUSTING. How can you say that in front of your children? That's abusive". I was shocked out of my skin (especially when I later learned she made judgements on child welfare cases for the police, oh dear). I could hardly muster a reply especially as I had to temper it (she was with a police officer who was on duty!). I just said "What have the kids being here got to do with it? They helped cut it up!". She turned green! At this point I assumed she was probably a veggie so I asked if she was and she said "No I am not a vegetarian but my daughter is, and killing an animal yourself is just WRONG." With that she had the old hand up in my face refused to listen to another word, and she headed for the car to leave. I did manage to ask where she buys her meat and she confirmed she uses the supermarket value section as I suspected. I just despair at such hypocrisy. I raise animals myself TO AVOID putting money in the pockets of battery farms as well as being able to reduce all the waste of modern butchering and get loads of tasty stewing neck meat etc! I don't judge people who buy farmed meat, but I choose not to, and I would expect someone with such "values" to appreciate the point. But no, being in contact with someone who has actually done the slaughtering somehow made her feel dirty and she couldn't leave quickly enough. This level of hypocrisy truly fascinates me. It seems every other person is like this now over here.

To each his own. But as far as I am concerned regarding putting our own dog down, I am happy with it and it's only my conscience I have to satisfy, however much some people try to convince me otherwise! I am not just content, I am so pleased we chose to push through the confusion of emotions and do what seemed right on every logical level for that dog. Nobody could ever convince me otherwise, and I am certain nobody could have cared more for that dog than us.

A great dog, at my wife's side for many years on many solitary woodland walks while I was at work before mobile phones came along! On one such walk he almost certainly saved her life from a serial killer, as silly as that sounds to say it now, it is however true. He had a dignified and painless exit when life become an uphill battle, without leaving the confines of his daily routine. I felt we did him a great service that day, in return for years of faithful service from him. Yin yang shall we say. I will. :)


Baron - ha, I have known several police dogs called Baron and they were always the best on their unit! I totally understand what you mean when you say "kind of scared of"! My current dog has me feeling the same. Not frightened of him but just in awe of the creature, and constantly aware of his potential.
I also agree an average man should be able to intimidate most dogs, and that some dogs won't have any of that nonsense! Sadly those dogs used to exist (genetically I mean) and they have been bred out of so many lines. Nowadays this same effect is "faked" (my interpretation anyway) by over breeding of intense prey drive and using that in training to appear like a dog which can't be intimidated. While this obviously does the job in 99% of cases, it does leave the dogs vulnerable to someone who understands this type of training and how to get around the dog's drive to see the real dog for what it is underneath, and so many working line dogs are lacking in confidence once they are not 'hunting prey'. I heard of a police dog (possibly military police) being killed fairly recently. Officers were called to a brawl, a bunch of soldiers in a bar etc... One of them assaulted the police and ran off. They released the dog which tracked and found him in some bushes. Next thing they had a dead dog (stabbed) and no bad guy to be seen anywhere. Nobody knows for sure but I suspect he pulled his jacket off, got the dog to latch on, and had his way with him. So easy to do on dogs which are prey driven and trained only with that approach. However I understand why they do it, as to train a dog this way takes MUCH less time and money, and it does do the job very well when confronted with the average person. There are still some "old school" dog lines around, but very very rare. It's such a problem that police are trying mixtures of breeds and all sorts of silly ideas now, just to get the old fashioned "hard" dog, a silly way of describing a dog's strength of character and desire to defend itself and WIN, rather than just chase a ball or swinging arm, hat, jacket, or anything else a clued up criminal can wave in its face.

Sounds like your Baron was one of the 'proper' (my opinion) original GSDs which so many show breeders have tried to remove from the GSD bloodlines. I know a woman who has been breeding working line GSDs for around 45 years, one of her dogs has progeny proving its lines right back to one of the earliest registered GSDs. She is fanatical about this stuff and constantly depressed at what kennel clubs and show breeders have done to destroy "her" breed! Some of her photos of her first GSDs really demonstrate the massive change the breed has gone through despite the best efforts of a few old timers like her.
Silly isn't it, it was that nature/character which made them famed the world over for propensity for Police work, search and rescue work, guarding work, even as blind guide dogs. Yet slowly but surely they are being morphed into fluffy empty shells of their former glory. I think there is a word for it... Devolution! 'Sad' is another.
I have a dog now which is pretty awesome by modern standards. That is one dog which certainly can't be intimidated, I know, I tried and failed before making a sharp exit and being forced (for first time in my life) to take a different approach which took weeks. Suffice to say, he came from East Germany where some of the old timers still win in the battle to keep the breed alive in its current form. Having said that, compared to old standards I don't think my dog would be such an amazing specimen, just a good dog. He is a cracker all the same, unfortunately not one person on earth (including my family sadly) is safe to go anywhere near him other than me. So I only get quiet moments to enjoy him on my own and can't really share or even show anyone what a wonderful character he has. I guess he just has to remain my dark little secret!

Anyway, my poker tournament has just finished so time for some shut eye. Glad Tucker is looking up there, long may it continue. :)

Cheers for now


PS - The dark secret...

Yippee, forum notification working :)

Last minute edit - "Put another log on please"

ha ha, great post Paul and so pleased to hear he is back to his usual ways. I can only wish I found it hard to believe that story. I have very little doubt that it is true, but even if it's not true, there are enough true stories very similar that it may as well be. It serves its purpose whether it's fact or fable, it does happen, and usually to women who look like they might have a bit of cash, or more often like they have a man behind them who won't question the bill. If that's not politically incorrect to say, which of course it is so it felt twice as good. :D

its like tyres/exhaust places over here. They give entirely different service to men versus women, as they assume (rightly so in most cases) that a woman will "fall for" their lies quicker than a man will. I have witnessed it first hand, and a friend of mine (decent car mechanic) secretly filmed his car's test at a garage after telling his wife to take it in when he heard they were up to some tricks like this. He sat opposite in a cafe with a big zoom camcorder and gritted his teeth while filming them pouring oil over the four (brand new) shocks, shortly before shaking their head at the woman upon her return... "sorry luv, this is going to be expensive, your shocks are all on their last legs". At this point her husband ran across the road and knocked the grease monkey into the inspection pit, luckily not killing him but probably hoping to! My own mother has had the same at another branch of the same outfit (KwikFit). I see vets as being about 2mm higher on the moral scale than these types of car garages, and that's being generous!

I can tell very similar stories of vets over here. I have my own experiences without even relying on others (of which I know many, from close relatives and friends as well as strangers). I had a GSD which I got from a rural and very rough rescue kennels after he went to "death row", the Scottish police screwed him up during training (their words not mine, I couldn't see anything wrong with him) and then "backed" him (returned him to rescue from whence he came). Best dog I have ever owned and will ever own. Didn't lock the house in 8 years, kids as safe as houses but anyone else better watch out.

The day he died was one of the hardest days of my life which sounds weird to say out loud, it's only a dog after all, but he represented 100 other things which we came to take for granted (well almost). He was unwell for a few days when we were down here in Cornwall looking at properties 6 or 7 years ago. I had shot a rabbit for him which he enjoyed, and was worried it might be lead poisoning (pretty sure it wasn't now). So we came home and decided to go to the vets the next morning. When i got up, my wife told me I had better "go and see Troy, he seems to be waiting for you and he is acting really weird". I opened the back door of the house where there was an old brick porch (old farmhouse). He laid there after we went to bed every night for 8 years, rear end against the door, head facing the big bad world. He was a monster if anyone came knocking, except a few friends I carefully introduced him to (who he would even allow into the house when I wasn't there, he would lick them but eat anyone they brought with them, amazing dog). Of course, I left him nasty with the mother in law, mais bien sur :D. On this particular morning I opened the kitchen door out to the porch where he laid and was shocked to see him the other way around which he hadn't done once in his life. His back end towards the world and head against the door (which I opened). When I opened it I knew something was very very wrong and I dropped to my knees to stroke him. As I did that he was visibly trying with every ounce of energy to lift his head and greet me, but he couldn't even raise his head fully. I sat down and lifted his head onto my lap, he looked up at my face with what I can only describe as the most haunting look I have ever seen and it haunts me to this day. With that I knew he was not going to be getting up again. I gently stroked his head as he breathed heavily, slower and slower. He gave one tiny wag of his tail as I stroked him, then took one enormous lungful of air with his whole torso doubling in size, then breathed out with an exhale which seemed to last minutes instead of seconds, he nudged his nose deeper into my lap during that least breath and he didn't take another. Worst of all, he settled his head so his eyes were staring into mine with that last breath and I watched his eyes slowly change from being the eyes of my faithful best friend to being the eyes of a corpse. As horrible as it was, there was something weirdly pleasing that he actually chose to stare at me as he died, it took a deliberate effort and I felt extremely humbled by it.

(This is all just a few days after Troy was a sprightly, happy and playful dog chasing balls and strangers on bikes!).
I had one hand on his chest and could feel his heart, there was a weak pulse but it was fading. Sarah was stood looking down at all this and was obviously upset, I told her to call the kids to come and see him off, not sure why, I just felt it was right to show them what death looked like and also it felt wrong not to have everyone there as he died. The children all stood crying quietly. The little one (Billy) laid down on Troy cuddling him and asking why he wasn't moving, answered by the two older boys with "because he is dead" (no beating round the bush then!). For what seemed like minutes Billy just laid on him listening to his weakening heart beat as it slowed and then gave its very last pulse. Only in that instant did it dawn on all of us just how much a part of our lives this dog had been, and how that huge daily influence on us all had suddenly disappeared from our lives forever in a matter of a minute or two. All but our oldest child had never known a day of their lives without this dog being a large part of it, when my wife was feeding them as babies Troy would lay under her feet (the only time he ever laid under her feet instead of mine!)
Then the older boys set about making a cross ready to bury him in the garden, no idea why, the mutt never went to church but convention is a funny thing isn't it! They made some carvings with old bits of wood and laid them next to his cross. It was a horrible time for us all, but at the same time we felt so incredibly fortunate to have experienced such an animal. We never felt the same in that house after that and were glad to get out. None of the windows or doors could be locked, and we had never felt remotely bothered by that, until Troy died at least. Then we felt very exposed and alone. What an incredible experience owning that dog was.

I still miss that dog daily even now, we all do, despite having another awesome dog (not a great family dog though). To this day I am 100% convinced that he was standing his sentry until he knew the man of the house was up and about, to finish his shift on guard at that door. Either that or he just wanted to see me for his own comfort, but either way I am in no doubt there was some "waiting" involved and it wasn't just coincidence that he died within a minute or two of me opening that door, I was up 2 hours later than usual too as I had been in the office until about 4am. Also my wife had popped down a few times during the night in between sorting kids out (feeding) and said she wondered (only too late) why he was behaving so oddly, as she had seen he was not laid his usual way around, but he had responded to a stroke from her so she wasn't too concerned in her tired state, she was just checking he hadn't messed on the floor or been sick etc.

For years I tried to replace him, I had dog after dog after dog from rescue kennels and other places on trial, but I soon realised he was just irreplaceable and I stopped trying to do the impossible and find another creature as special as he was. I am sure this was borne out of the experience he had when I collected him which is another long story in itself but basically he was kennelled and nobody was allowed near him. When i travelled 8 hours on a train to collect him, I took a muzzle but refused to use it. Ended up in an argument about it and just marched into his kennel while the women from the rescue centre went white and ran for cover as if he was going to kill everyone. I told him to sit, he did (although he looked ready to bite me!). I slipped the collar on while he was still a bit baffled by my arrogance :D, turned and walked out with him behind me (sweating profusely I admit!) but he didn't get a chance to spot that!
I travelled 8 hours back on a train full of drunk football supporters, he was muzzled for that whole journey and launched at a few idiots who were bothering us. this started to cement the bond I think. When I got back home I slept in the shed with him. I sweated myself to sleep while he laid panting looking at my fleshy face sticking out of an old army sleeping bag, and somehow I fell asleep despite being worried I was going to lose an eye. Next thing I knew was waking up to find this huge warm furry head on my chest looking at my face. It did give me a fright for a second and I didn't move for a while, but slowly talked to him to check it was safe to move, and then got up and stroked him carefully. My mother in law turned up outside the shed with a cup of tea and some biscuits for me, and he nearly went through the wall to attack her. I knew I had a dog with good instincts at this point! From that moment on, we were bonded like glue and I do think that journey home and first night in the shed with him really had a lot to do with it. He had belonged to an old woman where he ran riot and had no leadership, basically turning wild. The police then took him and made him more wild, but couldn't handle him (correct translation for him not being "suitable", but without losing face). The rescue shelter kept him muzzled and pinned down by various people at all times, and the dog basically met his first reliable human (with any confidence to lead him instead of run away from him) and with that he was mine for ever. What I got back from that dog in return for that brief show of trust and confidence, (not counting the odd bunnywabbit or bowl of tripe) was like a king's ransom in comparison. Years of faithful service and unfailing loyalty. he responded to commands like lightning, even when he had a stray trespassing jogger's bouncy bits IN his jaws on our property once, JUST as he was about to bite down one word and he returned to my heel instantly, much to the delight of the now white as a sheet jogging/ipod wearing/townie gone off the beaten track never to do so again :D

I would go to the ends of the earth to have another dog like Troy. And I mean that quite literally. Our kids basically grew up with round the clock security. When I was away or out on duty at night I never had to worry about the family being at home alone, even when a certain group of Caravan Utilising Nomadic Travellers pitched up right on our front garden (well, within a few feet). A team of armed robbers they turned out to be too, Troy spent that whole night laid at the end of the garden watching and growling at them whenever they sent their kids to poke around and look over the garden wall for stuff they could snatch. I had 8 foot chain link up behind the wall, for public safety not ours! A few nights after that I woke at 3am to hear Troy going absolutely nuts at the end of the garden. I grabbed a torch, something else, and my long tracking line. I called him to me, clipped his collar on, and went round the long way to see what was there, I knew something was as he didn't bark unless he knew someone was about. When I rounded the corner there was a guy standing urinating up the garden wall in the bushes in full view of the kid's bedroom window (not something to do near me if you want to keep me amicable!). I told him to disappear and he gave me a drunken mouthful of threats and abuse. Troy was at head hight spitting saliva at him begging me to let him off and I so nearly did. Instead I walked the guy backwards and up the road away from the house. He did move, he didn't want to get bitten. But once he was about 30 yards away he made the mistake of shouting "I will come back when you're not around and poison that ***xx dog". That did it for me. Unclip. "Troy Down". Troy laid next to me waiting for the word! I told the guy to shut his mouth and disappear, last chance saloon. He grabbed a tree branch off the floor and ran towards me, throwing the branch down the road at Troy.

"GO"

With that Troy launched like a rocket and buried his head in the guy's jacket and no doubt torso too. The noise the guy made was semi-chilling and semi-comical. I had a brief smile, then called him off with one whistle, he left the guy and returned to my side. I watched with the torch for a minute to check he got up and he did, ran into the woods and away without any more threats. I walked home admiring this awesome dog, and had to get my .22 and get him a rabbit, I couldn't sleep by then anyway! this is just one account of how many times that dog proved to me that you can't put a monetary value on some things in life, especially where dogs are concerned. Utterly awesome creatures and this one was about the most awesome I am sure I will ever have the privilege of owning.

So.... we were talking about these pesky vets before my life story got in the way..... :D :D

(Well you did say something about a camp fire didn't you?!)

Troy had ear mites occasionally in summer. He would rub his ears a bit for a week or two, then it would subside and usually come back some time the next year, but not always. Nothing major, the signs were so small I doubt most people would even spot them, but I was aware of it and assumed he just got a brief gathering of mites whenever the climate got just right for them to breed in his kennel, he would scratch for a while, then it all disappeared. He wasn't "suffering" any more than I do when I have an itch I can't scratch. I took him to the vets about another issue, I can't even remember what it was now it was so minor but whatever it was, he had to be sedated for it (as he did for any encounter with a vet who wanted to touch him!). Maybe an X-ray to check hips or something, really can't remember. Anyway, I took him in and told the vet explicitly NOT to do ANYTHING without my prior consent, other than that which we had discussed. (I hadn't started recording all such conversations then, I do now). I went to collect him that afternoon, busy reception (peer pressure always helps people pay up, usually I should say!) and the receptionist showed me the bill. It was around £350 when I was quoted £190 beforehand. I told her there's no chance of me paying it, I put the £190 cash on the desk and told her to get my dog who was just about awake enough to walk, but not awake enough to hurt any receptionists! She said "you have to pay, what are you talking about, of course you have to pay". I said "oh yeah? what law creates that obligation on me then, if you care to educate me?".

Of course she had no idea, so I educated her instead. I told her its the law of Contract and it relates to PRIOR AGREED TERMS which both parties have discussed and accepted, hence formation of a contract. In this case, said contract was to the tune of a FIXED service for FIXED sum, of £190, which I had paid and therefore my contractual obligations were now complete and they were in breach of said contract for withholding my property from me (dogs in UK are lawful property, unlike cats). I further told her that the current offence she was conspiring to commit was a myriad of possibles covered under the definitions of Theft and Fraud, she could take her pick which one she liked most.
She turned a funny colour and ran off to get the "boss" as she called him. Uncomfortable coughs from other customers, a few tuts as they witnessed this horrible man who obviously "doesn't care" about his pooch if he is questioning vets fees. In comes the "boss" (just a vet with a more supercilious attitude than the other vets at the place, ergo "boss") in his white coat looking like Dr Doolittle. Long story short he told me they had treated him for ear mites, billed me for swabs and gloves and potions and lotions and and and... "the dog had to be treated, it was unfair not to"

I explained that "I am not paying it. It wasn't agreed to, It wasn't urgent or life saving, there was plenty of time to call me as agreed, it wasn't necessary and it certainly wasn't asked for, it is therefore NOT BILLABLE. You had my number to call but you didnt use that did you, oh no, I might have said NO!"

He tried the (with louder voice) approach of "well he was suffering and you don't want your animal to suffer do you?". I laughed for a second and then gave him a rather spicy piece of my mind, generally covering the emotional blackmail they can wield on their average unsuspecting victims of FRAUD and how it won't wash with me, only one person knows the needs of my dog and that's me, and if he has any concerns about that he can call the RSPCA to come and do an independent inspection which I will gladly welcome and doubtless pass with flying colours. (I knew the local RSPCA people, they brought dogs to me when they needed help!) I then asked him "I don't think he was suffering, in fact I know he wasn't suffering. But since you are such a kind-hearted man and hate to see animals who are, in YOUR opinion, suffering, you won't mind footing the bill yourself will you?  You know, being the mother theresa of animals that you are, assuming this isn't just a ruse to extort money from people which I am sure it can't possibly be with you being such a saintly animal lover...... Otherwise we can go to court and let a judge decide firstly if a contract exists between us, and secondly you can try proving to a court that the dog was suffering. Oh and in the mean time, if I don't take that dog now, he will fully wake up from his sedative very shortly and you will be begging me to get him out of here before he scares off some more of your victims, sorry, customers. It's up to you. I am ready for court if you are so give me my dog and then you can issue a court claim where we can discuss this properly, with evidence and without any undue time pressures on either of us. Hows about that then?

Vet: "Please wait there a moment. Maggy please give this man his receipt for his payment and I will just go and fetch his dog"

Me: "There's a good chap, you know it makes sense"

The looks I got from customers in there was like I had just murdered someone. Brits are famous for it, being the perfect customer. As a group, we don't complain, we don't question, we don't challenge, and we sure as hell don't like to be seen as unwilling to hand over money, that would be most uncharitable now wouldn't it! And the veterinary industry is one of many which has cottoned onto this and taken every possible advantage from it!

That was the third vet we can never visit again, according to my wife, although I would gladly have gone back especially owing to the fact they now knew not to waste time on defrauding me like they did everyone else!

These places (with obvious exceptions, goes without saying) are generally taking complete advantage of pet owners loving their pets. We have vets down here in this more rural area, and we can have the same treatment at two different vets, with 2 or 3 times difference in price. Why? Because one deals with FARM animals, the other deals with PET owners. So we go to the farm type where they simply don't "expect" to make so much profit from customers, and also because they are not practised at the emotional black mail because that dribble doesn't work on farmers, they wouldn't even try! Funnily enough this (WONDERFUL) vet I am referring to came out when we had a sick lamb. I told my wife it was a bullet job but she wanted to see about it as she felt guilty because it was sick due to her leaving it out in the rain one night! The vet DROVE HERE, got kitted out in hazard suits etc (for foot and mouth risks etc), got her tackle box and walked across several acres, eventually finding the sheep after about 20 minutes of looking.  For the next half an hour she sucked on a tube she put down into the sheep's stomach, my own stomach was doing somersaults just watching, she was literally sucking green gastric juices into her own mouth and spitting it out onto the ground, for half an hour! She then gave it a few shot, ABs, mineral boost, etc, and returned to her car. She then spent 20 minutes chatting to us about what signs to look out for, how if it didn't improve a bullet would be best "and far cheaper than the vet doing it", and some stories about her travels as a rural vet. All in all I would say she was here for 1.5 to 2 hours. We dreaded the bill but got the shock of our lives when it arrived. FORTY POUNDS! £40. £40. £40! I keep saying it but it still doesn't sink in. She had a nice car, she was well dressed, she had a well paid job, and she manages all that on those sorts of rates. My only confusion is where on earth these pet vets hide the MILLIONS they must have stashed away somewhere?!!!

Anyway, that's about my views on vets done to death! And again, I don't tar them all with the same brush, the thieving fraudulent ones do that themselves. I have known a few brilliant vets in my time, but they are like white rhinos these days. It's just such a shame that the propensity to make immense profits has overtaken the desire to just do a good job for good reasons, as all decent vets want to do in their work, for people as well as their animals. And I contend strongly that if more people were like ME, the horrible questioning non-paying for non-owed charges type, and less like the average gullible "pay up, moan about it after you leave but don't make a scene, people will think you don't love your dog" brigade, this farce would come to a halt a lot quicker. My mother in law was charged £5.50 for a TISSUE and £4.80 for a pair of disposable rubber gloves used during an examination?!?! How crazy can it get? She thankfully told them she wasn't paying it and they gave her a "20% discount" as they called it, or just a bit of an "extortion reduction" in my language.



So Paul, now you know how enjoyable it was to read about how you had them wondering if you were some kind of competitor vet or worse, maybe a secret inspector!! I do hope that's what they were thinking! with your experience it sounds like you had them right where you wanted them from day one (i.e. anywhere but standing over you), and obviously that's the only way to get out alive and without a second mortgage these days! When you said they were really asking you "What do you know and how do you know it?", I would suggest an even more accurate translation of their comments as "How far can we pull this guy's wallet open without making fools of ourselves?" :D :D

Sounds like they were trying to suss out just how much they could fool you with, and when the answer was "none", they reverted back to age old traditions of just providing a proper honest service, and it's great that you did receive that in the end. It's just such a shame that you have to prove you are not a gullible imbecile before being able to expect fair and honest service from these profiteering white coats masquerading as saintly animal-welfare workers. But sadly it is the case, over here just as much if not more. I knew an old vet once (retired) and he said "By the time I retired it had become a licence to print money, people will spend anything on their pet, you just have to suggest it now and they pay up because they feel guilty if they don't". That just about summed it up for me, and his 30-40 years of watching the industry slowly change to what it is today, is something he described to me in many conversations over the garden wall and helped me to understand not just why, but how big business got involved, franchised up loads of vet practices, and demanded their pound of flesh more and more often until we have the silliness of today where people pay £10-15,000 to put their 12 year old GSD in a doggie wheelchair to extend his life (i mean suffering) another year or two. Makes my stomach turn it really does, before I even think about the profit aspect!


Well that's got some of my angst out, these camp fires are good for that. :D (I should send a tip for the service really!)


Since this unexpectedly (as much for me as for you) became my  "Ode To Troy", I will end with a few pics. I still avoid looking at these as they remind me of the pure gold we lost from our lives when this dog died....

The regal Troy



First proper meal (in my opinion!)



First swim (with "Ben" a monstrous looking dog half Rottie and half Great Dane taken from the so-called death row, who turned out to be as gentle as a lamb despite the "need to put him down" because he tore up a teddy bear in the shelter, and I badly wish I was joking!)
 


Troy when being sedated in the aforementioned vet visit, oddly in same posture as when he died (except for being bound up like Hannibal Lector at this place, on insistence from staff who at first insisted on handling him themselves against my strong advice, until they took a step towards me to take hold of the rope and changed their mind quite quickly)



First beach visit



Daily game of tennis



Me and my eldest with Troy in first decent bit of snow. This picture is on the wall of my office to remind me how loyal he was, he would sit and stare at me for hours. I never thought I was all that interesting, where would we be without our dogs to keep our spirits up?! :D



My eldest as a toddler with my wife's dog Darcy, another superb (rescue) dog from whom Troy took over guard duties and leadership role gradually as Darcy's age took its toll on his hips and eyesight, eventually making him incontinent, mostly blind and unable to move properly. (At which point he had lots of strokes, then a nice bowl of food to be getting his teeth into, closely followed by a painless end at home in the garden. Something we all found much kinder than a visit to a vet and I am sure the dog did too, more importantly.



Troy and Billy

Not sure if others are already aware of this but owing to the fact it just cost me several hours fixing images on some important forum threads I have running on other forums on other matters, I thought it worth a mention in case it saves someone else time cursing like I have been!

https://petapixel.com/2017/07/01/photobucket-just-broke-billions-photos-embedded-web/

Ok, I get it, you can say it's their right to charge, fine. Annoying, but fine. However, they made this move a while ago, and only yesterday I spent a lot of time uploading images which all worked nicely in my forum posts, for twenty four hours! Suddenly all disappeared leaving placeholders instead of my images, no doubt deliberately designed that way to back me into a corner and try to force me (or some more stupid versions of me) to pay up the extortionate fee they demand in order to continue serving up my images in my threads going back many years. No chance! Better to spend a few hours switching to another service and leave some spicy feedback for them on my account closure request. Actually, having done so, I now feel quite refreshed knowing that my history of image posting online (not a huge amount but enough) is completely removed. It feels like I just cleared some very long cookies :D
So I have deleted my photo bucket accounts in light of their removal of service and no doubt demise (which I shall personally enjoy watching!)