Back to the .22 Hornet

[gitano]

I loaded 10 cases with 10.6g of No.9 behind the Hornady 35g V-Max. I attached the MagnetoSpeed for the first shot, and the MV was 3125f/s. That's essentially the same as the MV for the 10.8g load, and the primer was "flat". I thought about unloading the rest of the cartridges, but thought that that first one might have been an anomaly, so I decided to shoot at least one more. However, I was really more interested in the precision than the velocity so I removed the MS and fired another round. Pretty much the same looking primer. Again, I considered stopping and unloading the rest of the cartridges, but I didn't really want to do that, and I did want to check our the precision. I decided to shoot 5 rounds "for group". You can see the result below.



There are in fact 6 shots; one with the MS attached, and five more. There are two shots in essentially one hole. There is the top hole, then the "two-hole", then the "MS hole", then the other two below. While windage is good, the variance in elevation is not good. This won't 'work' for two reasons: 1) it's still "hotter" than I want, and 2) the precision is clearly unsatisfactory. I unloaded the remaining 4 cartridges and resized their necks. I also checked the expansion of the head of the ones I fired. It was only 0.001" greater than the unfired ones. So even though the primers were flattened, the load wasn't TOO hot. Still, I want a load that doesn't flatten primers. I loaded the 10 cases with a charge of 10.3 grains. That's down 0.5 grains (about 5%) from the original load of 10.8 grains. I'll shoot them tomorrow, and let you know how that turns out.


Paul

[gitano]

Well, that was a surprise, but I suppose it shouldn't have been. As I said, I loaded 10 rounds with 10.30 grains of No.9 behind hte 35-grain V-max. Since it was a "fast" load, I decided to shoot the Anschutz instead of the Contender. I attached the MagnetoSpeed because I wanted to know what muzzle velocity the 10.30 charge was going to produce. To recap, the first 35g V-Max load was 10.8 grains that produced a single shot velocity of 3121f/s out of the Contender with 26" barrel. Those were flattening primers, so I backed off 0.20 grains to 10.6 grains. The single shot MV was 3125f/s. That is essentially the same as the 3121 of the 10.80-grain load. So I backed off another 0.30 grains to 10.30 grains. That's half a grain back out of a 10.8-grain starting load. That's a significant (4.6%) reduction. Since these are "fast" loads with short bullets, I thought I'd run the 10.30-grain charged cartridges through the Anschutz. So I did. Look at this target, and note particularly the muzzle velocities.



Average MV = 3136f/s with a standard deviation of 27f/s.

The group is poor, but sheesh! the MVs are HIGHER than the 10.80-grain charge! Of course, the Anschutz is a different rifle and 'there it is'. Again, the primers were 'flat'. The head expansion was negligible, but the case length grew between 0.005" and 0.010". Which of course means case life will be short. I'm pretty unhappy about this 'turn of events'. I unloaded the remaining 5 cartridges with the 10.30-grain charges, and reloaded those cases that I fired with 9.80 grains of No.9 and the 35g V-Max. That's 0.50 grains down from the 10.30-grain load, and a full grain down from the 10.80-grain load. I'll fire those later with the MagnetoSpeed.

I'm pretty disappointed in the group size, and I don't THINK it's a function of the MS. (Again, I THINK the MS moves Point of Impact, but does not change group size.) I want the MV down between 3000 and 3050 f/s. That's where the Hornady factory loads are, and I suspect there may be a timing/harmonic node in that velocity range. I'm hoping that the 0.50-grain reduction in charge will drop the average MV into that 3000-3050fs range. If not, I'm lower the charge even farther.

I'm not going to do any further analysis on this group. It has little value other than to provide MV results and demonstrate that the precision is unacceptable.


Paul

[gitano]

Well that's better. I loaded 5 with 9.8 grains of No.9. Here's the target.


Here are the digital targets:


Here's the group with 95% confidence ellipse:


And its data:



I THINK for the time being, I have my "fast" and "slow" loads for the Hornet.


Paul

[gitano]

Nope. I can't stand it. I'm going to load 5 with 9.5 grains, and 5 with 9.3 grains of No. 9. I have to bracket the best group size. If I go down to 9.5 and the group opens up, then I won't bother going down to 9.3. Conversely, if the group gets smaller at 9.5, I most certainly will shoot the 9.3 loads. I just can't get over the "one hole" groups with the Hornady factory ammo.

Paul

[sakorick]

I sure have had good luck with 13 grains of Lil' Gun and the 35 grain V-max/CCI400 primers.

[gitano]

So I was able to get some shots in today. 10 rounds from the Anschutz using the 35g Hornady V-Max: 5 with a charge of 9.5g of No.9, and 5 with a charge of 9.3g of No.9. Also, 5 rounds (sort of), from the Contender using the 65g Sierra BTSP charged with 5.6 grains of No.9. Unfortunately, I was shooting the Anschutz first, and just 'pressed on' with the 65g BTSPs. The 1:16 twist rate of the Anschutz will NOT gyroscopically stabilize that bullet. Took me two shots to remember that!:frown Here are the actual targets:
First the 9.3g charge target.


The "digital" targets.


The 95% Confidence Ellipse.


And its data.


The 9.5g charge target.


The digital targets.


The 95% Confidence Ellipse.


And its data.


The 65g BTSP actual target. Three shots only because the first two were out of the Anschutz and keyholed badly.


The digital targets.


The 95% Confidence Ellipse.


And its data.


The 65g BTSP holds some promise. Wish I had shot all five out of the Contender. By the way, the MVs out of the Anschutz were, 1574f/s and 1545f/s. Those are roughly 200f/s faster than out of the Contender, and it has a barrel 2" longer. I suspect the bullet was into the lands on the Anschutz. Here's a picture of the second shot out of the Anschutz. I have no idea where the first one went!


The 9.3 and 9.5-grain charges behind the 35g V-Max were "informative" in that they were clearly worse than the 9.8g charge. That's good to know.

So I suppose I'm 'finished' fiddling with the .22 Hornet handloads. I have a 'fast' load for the Anschutz that's very close to the excellent factory Hornady load, and I have a very good 'slow' load for the Contender. Actually, probably two - the 63g, flat-based SMP, and the 65g, BTSP Sierra. Either/both will work.


Paul

[recoil junky]

Just curious how far off the lands you are? Seating out another .005" may help?

 RJ

[gitano]

Which bullet and which rifle are you suggesting that 0.005" change, RJ?

Paul

[recoil junky]

Annshoots and the 35 grain Vmax.

RJ

[gitano]

Right now, using the extraordinarily precise factory ammo, the bullet is ~0.115" off the lands. I could be mistaken, but I don't think 0.005" more will make a difference in my handloads. There's at least 0.005" of variation in the ogive of the bullets.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

FCD tends to negate distance off the lands for the land chasing OCD sufferers.

[recoil junky]

FCD tends to negate distance off the lands for the land chasing OCD sufferers.

Of course it does, what was I thinking.

.115" is a lot of jump for that short and small diameter of a bullet. I don't think I read how much jump you had in earlier posts, but IMO it's worth a shot, literally, to halve that distance and see what happens.

RJ

[gitano]

Welllll...

There are a couple of reasons I am unlikely to 'fiddle' any more.
1) The factory ammo has TRULY "one-hole" precision. There really isn't any improvement on that.
2) My imitations of the factory load is within the variance of the factory ammo's precision.
3) Once I achieve a certain level of precision, (necessary for the hunting I do with the firearm), I don't spend more time or resources on getting better precision.
Finally, and most importantly:
4) The 35-grain, .22 caliber V-Max is a relatively short bullet. At the current seating depth of ~0.216", it's already less than a caliber into the neck. While I am willing to go to as little as 67% of a caliber if necessary, coming out 0.055" shortens the seating depth to ~0.161", only 72% of a caliber, very close to that minimum of 67%. My personal experience suggests that shortening seating depth below 1 caliber has a tendency to reduce precision, not improve it. Certainly there are exceptions to that, but when the cartridge is already well within my personal precision standards, it is my opinion that the 'odds are against' realizing any realistic improvements by making the seating depth as little as 70% of a caliber.

I have considerable faith in the following personal experience: There are 'sweet-spots' in distance-off-the-lands, that are, within reason, independent of cartridge. Those sweet-spots are:
1) "just off" the lands. There's a substantial risk to loading HUNTING handloads "just off" the lands. That risk overwhelms whatever advantage in precision might be gained.
2) AROUND 0.050" +/- 0.01" off the lands,
3) AROUND 0.080" +/- 0.01" off the lands,
4) AROUND 0.120" +/- 0.01" off the lands.

As you can see, at ~0.115" off the lands, the factory ammo (and my copies) are near that "long" sweetspot. I could move out to the 0.08" point, by I have to ask, "why"? One-hole groups are REELY tough to improve on.

Paul

[gitano]

I was looking at the key-holed target of the 65-grain Sierra BTSP out of the Anschutz with the 1:16 twist and it occurred to me that there is some good info there because I also have muzzle velocity. Recall that for the two shots out of the Anschutz, the MVs were 1574 and 1545 f/s. That one hole shows that the bullet is clearly sideways at 30yd. (I found the hole from the first shot when I looked for it relative to where the Point of Aim was for the second shot, and it too was fully sideways.) Therefore, it is clear that 1574 f/s is not even close to sufficient for stabilizing that bullet out of a 1:16 twist barrel. To tell the truth, I wasn't surprised that 1:16 and 1574 f/s wasn't 'enough' to gyroscopically stabilize that bullet, BUT... I was surprised that it wasn't even close, with the bullet fully sideways 90 feet from the muzzle. That would suggest that the MV would have to be increased significantly - to say at least 1800, and more likely even 2000 f/s before that bullet is fully stabilized from a 1:16 barrel.

Paul

[farmboy]

Welllll...

There are a couple of reasons I am unlikely to 'fiddle' any more.
1) The factory ammo has TRULY "one-hole" precision. There really isn't any improvement on that.
2) My imitations of the factory load is within the variance of the factory ammo's precision.
3) Once I achieve a certain level of precision, (necessary for the hunting I do with the firearm), I don't spend more time or resources on getting better precision.
Finally, and most importantly:
4) The 35-grain, .22 caliber V-Max is a relatively short bullet. At the current seating depth of ~0.216", it's already less than a caliber into the neck. While I am willing to go to as little as 67% of a caliber if necessary, coming out 0.055" shortens the seating depth to ~0.161", only 72% of a caliber, very close to that minimum of 67%. My personal experience suggests that shortening seating depth below 1 caliber has a tendency to reduce precision, not improve it. Certainly there are exceptions to that, but when the cartridge is already well within my personal precision standards, it is my opinion that the 'odds are against' realizing any realistic improvements by making the seating depth as little as 70% of a caliber.

I have considerable faith in the following personal experience: There are 'sweet-spots' in distance-off-the-lands, that are, within reason, independent of cartridge. Those sweet-spots are:
1) "just off" the lands. There's a substantial risk to loading HUNTING handloads "just off" the lands. That risk overwhelms whatever advantage in precision might be gained.
2) AROUND 0.050" +/- 0.01" off the lands,
3) AROUND 0.080" +/- 0.01" off the lands,
4) AROUND 0.120" +/- 0.01" off the lands.

As you can see, at ~0.115" off the lands, the factory ammo (and my copies) are near that "long" sweetspot. I could move out to the 0.08" point, by I have to ask, "why"? One-hole groups are REELY tough to improve on.

Paul

Well on point number three I can most times agree with this one.hunfref percent. When you have developed a load that shoots well and is consistent I have little energy left to bother trying to make it better. Back a number of years I loaded 17 Remington ammo tryed a few loads I made one that was fast and five shot groups had an extreme spread of just under 5/8 on a inch spread. I am trying to say to the outside of the bullet holes. Anyhow I never deviated from the load and shot it for years and many thousands of times. I basically hit what ever I shot at unless I was a really bad day and the next day I could shoot again. So I agree when you find a load that works just keep using it. Basically it's a different game if a guy is bench rest shooting. Hunting in my opinion it is a great way. Once in a while due to unavailable components a person has to try a few different options lol just don't let your inventory get to low. Regards