"Houston, we have a problem"

[locknloadnow]

some interesting case head separation info
 
http://stevespages.com/diagnosingproblems.html

[RatherBHuntin]

ouch!  One of the neighbors at the hunting camp was visiting and told us he got a new rifle adn a box of ammo with it.  He then gave it to a friend to scope and sight in.....along with the box of shells.   Apparently they were 270 shells and a 7 Mag rifle I think.  The friend proceeded to shoot the whole box before he figured out they weren't the right shells.

[Paul Hoskins]

One of the most overlooked causes of problems like this is not enough clearance between the case neck and chamber neck. See example. ...........Paul H

[sakorick]

That's ugly.

[Paul Hoskins]

I agree Rick. This is what happened after firing a 22 Newton in a chamber made with a regular 224 chambering reamer. The cartridge went in the chamber ok but there was no neck clearance for expansion to  release the bullet. Fortunately the action was a Ruger #1 instead of a bolt gun.  ..........Paul H

[locknloadnow]

the most nightmarish thing fathomable, is the bolt flying back and hitting the shooter in the face

[gitano]

is the bolt flying back and hitting the shooter in the face

Is there even one verified example of that EVER happening in the history of bolt action firearms? If you know of one, I'd appreciate the citation.
 
Paul

[RatherBHuntin]

Apparently the Ross rifles did that Paul, I think there are a lot of second hand accounts of it, don't know of any first hand documentation.  But those were due to Rifle/Bolt issues, not necessarily ammo.

[gitano]

If you can point me in the right direction Glenn, I'll try to find some verification. I don't know what Ross rifles you refer to.
 
Paul

[locknloadnow]

Is there even one verified example of that EVER happening in the history of bolt action firearms? If you know of one, I'd appreciate the citation.
Paul

 
Certainly- one has to be careful with certain types of the vintage straight pull bolt actions- i.e. the "interrupted screw type"- (no foul intended, that's their technical name)- they don't lock as solidly as the Mauser type, and are easy to "mis-assemble"- and yes, many shooters were killed and maimed when the bolt blew back in their faces- this is why the straight pull actions are no longer produced today, in any form- even though they do cycle faster, they are not as safe as a turnbolt. It is possible to remove the bolt head of our Steyr M95's and assemble it incorrectly, so the locking lugs are on the wrong side- but most likely it would not pick up the shell and chamber it- I've never tried it to find out- but be careful with any straight pull. Think about it, all it needs is sufficient force rearward, and it will unlock and the bolt will fly backwards.
 

[gitano]

this is why the straight pull actions are no longer produced today, in any form-

That's not correct. Steyr, at least, is producing at least one model of straight-pull bolt rifle. I think Blaser is as well.
 
What is the citation for the above article?
 
Paul

[Brithunter]

Hmmm let's see in recent production were :-

Mauser M96 Slide Bolt
Blaser R93
Heym SR? (sorry I cannot remember their model #)

I am not aware of the Steyr model but it would not surprise me at all after all they got in on the straight pull back in 1888 and it was this Steyr that inspired Sir Chales Ross.

   Gitano the Ross was the Model 1910 and was due to operator error in stripping the bolt and incorrect assembly they forcing said bolt into the action. The rifle would **** the mainspring but the bolt lugs were never engaged or locked. In this (difficult to achieve) condition the rifle would fire a cartridge with an unlocked bolt. There are a couple of sort of documented cases in the US of this happening and rumours of it happening in France however these french ones might have been an attempt to add to the pressure to replace the Ross in the Trenches with Lee's due to the Ross's weaker primary extraction and jamming with less than perfact cartridges in the mud and stuff at the front.


Phil Sharp did all he could to destroy the reutation of the Ross rifle as he hated them for some reason. The Ross M10 sporting rifle in 280 Ross, which is one of the highest pressure cartridges developed, is still high on my want list. British proof pressure for the 280 Ross is 28 tons. 270 Win and 300 Win mag is 20 tons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is one reason why Eley-Kynoch developed the 280 Nitro cartridge which used the Ross case loaded to lower pressures for those who wanted to use the weaker Mauser 98 actions. I have a couple of the Eley 280 Nitro cartridges in my small collection.

 Yes in fact Mausers built to handle the 280 Ross developed lug set back so this was a way around that as at that time the Ross 280 was very popular in the British Empire.

The Blaser R93 of course is still in production and very popular, the Mauser is not and the company has changed hands and moved and now have the radical M03 Mauser in production. I believe that the Heym is still made it uses ball bearings to lock into seats by a camming action I seem to recall. The Russians made a special ISU competition rifle for Olympic running target which was a straight pull upon the Ross basis .

[RatherBHuntin]

Ron, aka Buckshot Roberts, has "A Rifleman Went to War" by H. W. McBride and I think it's in there where he talks about the Ross.  I also read it in one of the last two American Rifleman as well I think.

[shinz]

As BH has alluded to, the 1910 Ross was an immensely strong action when assembled correctly. I have only read the commonly available info about this problem so have nothing more to add to this aspect.
As shooters of LE 303s well know, their chambers are often horribly oversize to ensure reliablity of feeding & extraction with all types of 303 ammo from various makers & dirty & scruffy ammo too. Total battlefield reliability but a handloaders nightmare. The Ross rifles were apparently made with what approached match grade chambers & under battle condtions & those prevailing in the WW1 trenches, poor feeding & extraction was almost inevitable.
Steve

[locknloadnow]

What is the citation for the above article?
Paul

the author was JACK O'CONNOR
 
you can make any semi auto rifle into a straight pull by blocking the gas port and cycling the action manually by hand, not exactly the most desireable action- at least one of the so-called "new" straight pulls are actually a semiauto action worked in manual mode, see below:
 
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bolt_action.htm
 
"The fastest form of bolt action rifle is the straight pull action. The Canadian Ross rifle of pre-WW I fame was the first of the breed with which I am familiar. Such rifles have never been popular because they usually sacrifice too many of the bolt action's virtues (camming action on extraction, controlled feed, simplicity of design) for a fairly minor increase in speed of operation. The straight pull bolt action is still slower than a lever, pump, or autoloading rifle.
But straight pull designs are still occasionally seen. And they do provide faster follow-up shots than a turnbolt action. Two recent examples are the Blaser R 93 and the Browning Acera. The latter is basically a manually operated version of the BAR autoloader, with the BAR's multiple lug rotating bolt head. The Blaser action uses an expanding collar to lock the bolt, and is available in a wide variety of calibers from .22-250 to the .416 Remington Magnum. Faster is better, but not to the exclusion of all else"
 
you had asked if anyone ever got hit with a bolt in the face- the answer is yes, many did- that's one reason why Paul Mauser put the 3rd safety lug on Mauser model 98, to protect the shooter when/if the 2 front locking lugs were sheared off by catastrophic failure- the bolt hitting the shooter in the face, is not an unknown occurrence, it can happen even with modern actions- the point is, the interrupted screw straight pull type was especially dangerous, and had a history of that happening when misassembled- and any straight pull doesn't lock up tightly to begin with
 
question- if the goal is shoot fast, why not just get a modern semiauto and be done with it ?
 
here's one case of shooter being hit by bolt from a Mossberg:
 
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1895607/page/1/nt/10/fpart/1
 
quote:
 
"About a week after I heard about this incident, I ran into an old high school buddy of mine who told me that the hunter, Heath Ryder, worked for him. He said the rifle had been purchased new about 2 weeks prior to the incident and had been fired less than a half dozen times with factory ammo only. The damage was quite extensive and could have been fatal if he had not been hunting with a group of family members who got him evacuated quickly. Apparently destroyed the lower left mandible and most of the soft tissue (lips, and cheek). Will be in for several re-constructive surgeries before he is functional again. Luckily no eye damage. I'd say he was due some compensation for his injuries. I bet some of the ones snickering here would be wanting some too, had they had a bolt from a defective rifle blow through their face. "