>> 6.5 mm -- is this the "perfect" caliber ?

[gitano]

Secondly, another factor in the equation is the "if the bullets behave the same" part. That is the part where I prefer partitions and specifically the monolithics from a "penetration" point of view. Less strong bullets loose a lot of weight at the point of impact, leaving a light remaining projectile that does not have sufficient momentum to (say) break a large shoulder bone. I've shot very tough critters - mountain goat - with a 150 grain Ballistic Tip out of a .308 Win at about 125 yards, it broke both shoulder blades and the backbone and was found on the far side under the skin. The monometal bullets ratain about 85 to 90% weight even at high velocity impacts and the partitions 75 to 80%. A non partition, like a polymer tipped bullet, may loose as a lot more and on a close shot, where impact velocity is still high, it may fail to perform if it has to traverse much tissue to reach the vitals.

You really need to use these bullets TYPES before you judge them. It's almost rediculous to believe that a 150 grain bullet doing 2500 fps at the point of impact is going to fail to reach the vitals unless you're shooting an Eland in the rear hoping to get to the heart. I've been using HPs (to say nothing of Ballisitic Tips) going VERY fast for almost 30 years. In what is likely approaching a hundred head of big game in that time, I've NEVER had a single one fail to "reach the vitals" OR not perform BETTER than most "solid tipped" bullets.
 
That said, below you will find the momentum sweetspot graphs for the 6.5-06. Look particularly at the graph with 100, 200 , and 300 curves. The heavy-weights are "dying" faster the farther out you go. In fact, considering only momentum, they are "dying" faster than they do when considering enegy delivered. Also note how the sweetspot shifts the LEFT as range INCREASES. At 100 yds, the sweetspot looks like it might be around 165 or 180, at 200 its about 150, and at 300 its about 147-ish. If you want momentum, go lighter or get a very high ballistic coefficient. If you wanna poke holes, use a heavy, monometal or partition-type bullet. If you wanna deliver energy AND reach hte vital with a reasonable shot, use a "sweetspot" weighted bullet.
 
If you return to the previous FOM graph you will see I have corrected the weight to 110.
 
Paul

[gitano]

OOPS - It still says 125 in the header, but you'll notice that the variable "weight" equals 110. It's a major pain to get these graphs on THL or I'd go back and change it again. Sorry.
 
Paul

[CAfrica]

Hi Gitano,
 
Thanks for all the trouble.  I cannot fault your logic on the ballistic tips.  I just had a bad experience once with a conventional construction bullet (not ballistic tip construction, standard soft point flat base),  and since that day I have always used premium construction bullets for all my high velocity loads.
 
I concede that my experience was probably due to a badly manufactured bullet (the particular manufacturer got a lot of bad press at the time with similar incidents).   The point is that I am very happy with the bullets I currently use and see no need to change.
 
I found the new graphs very interesting and about what I expected.  In the energy graphs, the sweetspot was around to 125gr mark.  With the momentum graphs, the sweetspot is from 147gr upwards.   My selection of the 140gr partition rather than the 125gr puts me nearer the spot (although the difference is small and dead is dead isn't it?).
 
Although the 110gr is substantially off the ideal spot, my idea is to use it on small targets (springbok weight less than 50lb) and the selection of this bullet is because of the flat trajectory (springbok are plains game and long shots are the norm).
 
 
Thanks again for all the trouble with the graphs.
 
Regards.
 
 
C

[gitano]

Hi Gitano,
 
Thanks for all the trouble. As Ol' John sez, "If it's fun, it ain't work."
 
The point is that I am very happy with the bullets I currently use and see no need to change. And there my friend, is the whole Truth.
 
I found the new graphs very interesting and about what I expected. In the energy graphs, the sweetspot was around to 125gr mark. I think it's closer to 140 than 120. With the momentum graphs, the sweetspot is from 147gr upwards. My selection of the 140gr partition rather than the 125gr puts me nearer the spot (although the difference is small and dead is dead isn't it?). You betcha.
 
Although the 110gr is substantially off the ideal spot, my idea is to use it on small targets (springbok weight less than 50lb) and the selection of this bullet is because of the flat trajectory (springbok are plains game and long shots are the norm). I wouldn't hesitate to use the 110 on game substatially larger, but  then that's where this all started, isn't it. :D
 
 
Thanks again for all the trouble with the graphs. No sweat, GI.
 
Regards.
 
 
C

Paul plus 5.

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

Friends & neighbors,

My thanks to all that have posted their thoughts & observations on the various 6.5 cartridges and the bullets that go into them.  I especially want to thank Gitano for the graphs and the analysis that went with them.  Paul, you are a #1 number cruncher!  Whether or not I have convinced anyone to my way of thinking about the 6.5 caliber really doesn't matter.  I do hope that the discussions have been informative for all who have participated.  A good friend of mine pretty well summed up the thought of "PERFECT" and I will pass it on for your consideration..........................
 
"In the world we live in .. there is no such thing as perfection!
If we seek perfection we will be, by definition, a failure.
However, excellence in any given endeavor is achieveable!
Therefore, let us strive for EXCELLENCE."

So is the 6.5 the "perfect" caliber?  Nope........but it is a caliber that reaches a very high degree of EXCELLENCE for just about everything except the bears.  From pasture poodles to moose there is a cartridge and a bullet that will do the job and do it exceedingly well.
Match the cartridge and the action, the proper barrel and stock and you will have a winner.
 
Keep your bores clean and yore powder dry and get out and shoot somethin'.
 
Ol' John

[neolithic hunter]

graph's and charts are fine but how does it work in the field. i'm lucky, i own over 40 deer rifles and i have used all, some with good results some with less than good results, all with good hits. i've got the big belted one's and the short one's.

i find myself over hte years continuing to go back to the 6.5's for there always stellar performance. i've killed elk with eveything from 25.06 to .358 norma and the 6.5's have killed just as good if not better than them all. i have 2 6.5x55's and 3 6.5.06's. the 6.5x55 with the proper bullet and placement has killed elk at the far side 250 yards without any problems. i built my first 6.5.06 on a 1909 mauser, i now shoot 129 hornaday's in it. it seems to have the ballistics of the 120's and the ability to hold together and penatrate like the 140's. i use a 6.5.06 to shoot f-class and it has won several matches for me. i shoot a serria 140 gr mk and my best group at 300 yrds was a .721 for 5 rnds, i don't do that all the time, dang it. but it'll shoot better than i can, i concidered the 6.5.06 ai but i have never been impressed with ai rounds.  if i need more than a standard cartirage will provide i get one with a belt on it. i guess it's time to thin out my rifle collection as i'm getting older and wiser, well older anyway.  the last three years of hunting, i have used a 6.5x55 on whitetails and 2 pigs, a 7x57 on whitetails and one very noisey rooster, a 6.5.06 on antalope and mule deer, a 30.06 on elk and mule deer, and last but not least a.358 norma mag. on a costal brown bear. for my average hunting i more than likley will be found in the woods with a 6.5 mm round every time.  when it come to the deer woods bigger is not always better. my 0.02 spent rather well.

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

neolithic hunter,
 
Welcome aboard, neighbor. Anyone who hails from Cut&Shoot, Texas has got to be a pretty good feller. Appreciate your contributing your experience with the 6.5 bore to the thread. I noticed your remarks about shooting "F" class competition and wondered where-a-bouts it is that you are competing? Been thinking about doing a bit of that myself. What kind of a rifle set-up do you have? I have a Remington 78 action thats not doing anything at the present time so I might decide to develop an "F" class based on that action. Would appreciate any info you might want to pass on to us beginners! Again....Welcome!
 
Ol' John...:D

[Hunterbug]

Ok, so I'm jumping in here a little late but since I just got my first 6.5, well.........  Anyway, is it the perfect caliber, no. But it's pretty good. It's great for deer and hog sized game. It's smaller than I personally would like to use for game such as elk and moose but it would deffinately work in a pinch. And deffinately more than is necessary for coyotes and smaller. I don't really see the advantage that it has over the .257 on deer sized game as both have plenty of power to kill a deer as far or farther than I will willingly shoot at a deer sized animal so any added power is purely academic. I have only begun to play with mine and hope to take a coyote or two in late August or early September and maby a deer next year.

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

Patience H'bug!  Patience!

I agree with your assesment on deer/antelope sized game.  Not a whole lot of difference between .25 and .26 caliber but..............!
 
Take my advice on bullet selection and use light for caliber bullets for deer/antelope........such as Sierra 100gr HP's or Nosler 100gr Ballistic Tips.  Out to 250-300 yards they do wonderfly.  Rapid expansion and lots of bullet shock!  I think the 125 or 140 Nosler Partitions would work extremely well on elk.
 
For 'yotes I think I would use the 95gr Hornaday VMAX or the Sierra 85gr HP's would be just the ticket.  Please remember also the 6.5 Swede as a general rule loves slower powders.....H-4350, RL 19 or there-abouts should be the ticket.
 
I am reasonably sure you will be surprised with the results.
 
Ol' John...

[gitano]

Lotsa, lotsa moose killed every year in Scandinavia with 6.5s. LOTS of them!
 
Paul

[neolithic hunter]

Ok, so I'm jumping in here a little late but since I just got my first 6.5, well......... Anyway, is it the perfect caliber, no. But it's pretty good. It's great for deer and hog sized game. It's smaller than I personally would like to use for game such as elk and moose but it would deffinately work in a pinch. And deffinately more than is necessary for coyotes and smaller. I don't really see the advantage that it has over the .257 on deer sized game as both have plenty of power to kill a deer as far or farther than I will willingly shoot at a deer sized animal so any added power is purely academic. I have only begun to play with mine and hope to take a coyote or two in late August or early September and maby a deer next year.

hunterbug, i've been using the 6.5 mm for quite a number of years. as stated in the other post, the in norway and sweden it take the place of our 30.06. it is used extensivly on game the size of our easteren moose, over there they call them elk, but what do you expect from a european anyway. mean while i have found that the 100 grain bullet in 6.5mm to be a little light for deer sized game. i know of people who swear by them but i have not had the best of results with them. i personally prefer the 120 class bullet for deer sized animals it has a good sectional density and is carrying enough weight to do a good job even at extended ranges, say 300 to 400 yrds. i shoot a 130 gr boattail bullet that i make myself , this is a standard lead and gilding metal bullet with a bonded core, not a boutique bullet.  it has more retained energy than the 120's but not the weight of the 140's. if you are shooting a 6.5x55 class round then i would suggest using the 120's at about 2800 fps for deer, hogs and such. most of the factory 140's have a jacket that is designed for elk sized critters, but will work well on deer if the rang is not to far, say out to 250 yards or so. if your shooting a 6.5x06 class round then you are at about 150 fps less than a 264 win mag and can extend your ranges accordingly. if your shooting a 264 win mag class round then i would by all means us the 140's exclusivly due to the veloicity problems, and bullet construction issues.
 i also have to agree on the powder selections but i would also add r-22, hodgans  sc-4831 to the list. the 6.5mm bore really likes the same powders as the 25.06 would like. well thats my 0.02 worth of brain power.:)

[Hunterbug]

Lotsa, lotsa moose killed every year in Scandinavia with 6.5s. LOTS of them!
 
Paul

Lots of people ride motorcycles without helmets, don't wear seat belts, and smoke a pack a day; that doesn't make it a good idea. I agree that the 6.5 will kill both elk and moose but I have too many more suitable calibers to take my 6.5X55 for an elk or moose hunt as my primary weapon.
 
I am going to Sportsman's Warehouse tomorow to get dies and some bullets so I'll see what I come home with. I have heard that the 6.5X55 likes the slower powders so I'll look into loads with both RL-19 and RL-22 which I have at home and a 120 to 130gr bullet for deer and maby a 95gr V-Max or 100gr BT for coyotes. I'll look into the data more when I get home.

[gitano]

I agree that the 6.5 will kill both elk and moose but I have too many more suitable calibers to take my 6.5X55 for an elk or moose hunt as my primary weapon.

The best reason.
 
Paul

[neolithic hunter]

I agree that the 6.5 will kill both elk and moose but I have too many more suitable calibers to take my 6.5X55 for an elk or moose hunt as my primary weapon.

well gentalmen i used to be a hunting guide in new mexico, colorado, and wyoming. i would rater see a hundred men with 6.5x55's in camp than the regular type. the regular type is a man carrieing the latest extremly expensive loudenshootnthunderboomer, can't hit the paper at 100 yrds because he's afraid of his new superduperelkthumperkillingmachine gun. it kicks too hard, and makes to much noise, for him to sight it in, so he pays someone at the range to sight it in for him. when he gets to camp he doesn't whant to check his zero on paper and swears that the rifle hasen't been bumped or anything so it dosen't need to be checked. when or if you can finally get the fool to shoot it at paper, he the hunter whose paid over $10,000.00 for the hunt of his life couldn't hit an elk with a 2x4 if it was standing next to him. i have had the oportunity to kill a good number of elk in my time, i've personally use with great success the following 25.06, 6,5x55, 6.5.06, 270, 7x57, 280, 7 mm mag's, 308 win, 30.06, 300 win mag, 8x57, 8mmx338, 8 mm remington mag, 338 win mag, 358 norma mag, and 45/70.  those are the calibers i can think of at the moment. i've had to use most of them to dispatch animanls that have been shot by men, shooting weapons more suited to elk sized animals. i have yet to have to kill an animal for a client that brings a 6.5x55 up to a 30.06 to camp. the men who bring these rifles can hit what there aiming at because they arn't afraid of there weapon. this is from personal experience of the men i,ve hunted with in the hills and mountains of the west. pick what weapon you wish but if you can't hit a 10" circle with consistency at 200 to 200 + yrds, you'll be chasing wounded animals in the woods most likely at night. lol and have fun;)

[CAfrica]

Gitano,
 
GS Custom make a 95gr HV. I have purchased a packet and it is on my list of things to try in my 6.5-06. Sigh, so many things I want to do, so little time.
 
C

Finally managed to build up some loads and get out to test.
 
My final loads for my "bullets of choice"  were:
 
110gr GS Custom  3400ft/s
140gr Nosler P      3000ft/s
160gr Claw           2400ft/s (mild load for bush use).
 
I then tested the 95gr as I said I would and managed to reach 3700ft/s without pressure problems.
 
Also shot my first critter with the rifle (using the 110gr).  Black springbok at about 140yards.  I was shooting through some bush and I think I hit something on the way because POI was a bit off.  nevertheless springbok went down and stayed down.  Bullet took out one kidney and didn't damage any meat (biltong is about dry, tried it last night and the wors is great).
 
So far happy with my choice, haven't done any real grouping tests yet (most shooting was done in the field not at the range and without a proper bench, the shooters influence on the groups are too much to make an evaluation).
 
Regards.
 
C