The Hunter's Life Forums

Friends & Neighbors,
 
I would like to open a discussion with those who peruse this forum on my favorite caliber..the 6.5mm or .264 or as sometimes designated .256. I would like to discuss the bullets available, cartridge choices, achieveable velocities, case life, accuracy potential and expecially COST! Another area of discussion is varmints and game animals suitable for hunting with this caliber. There will be other thoughts as we progress in this thread that can be discussed if there should be interest.
 
As most of you are well aware, I am not a big fan of 'MAGNUMS' in general so I personally will not be discussing the various 6.5 mm magnums of any kind. However, that should not disuade any others from adding their *two cents worth* pro or con. My comments, if any, will be of a NEGATIVE nature at the very least.
 
Ol' John..;)

For many years, I looked down on the various 6.5 mm cartridges since when you look at them in loading manuals, their ballistics seemed pretty puny beside the .270 Win, 7mm Magnum and even the 25-06. I couldn't imagine why anyone would own one. Recently I started shopping in ernest for a companion rifle to my .270WSM (Hey, I wasn't after a magnum, but had always been intrigued by the idea of a .270 bullet in a short action. And I figured if I could get an extra 300 fps over a .270 Redding with the 130 gr bullet in a factory rifle that cost about half of what a custom .270 Redding would have cost to build...) But I digress, anyway, the other rifle was intended for my younger sons aged 12 and 15 who had recently successfully completed their hunter education course and could now be licensed to hunt in the state of Washington. I needed a rifle that would be mild recoiling, yet still effective on deer sized game, and maybe even up to cow elk, should the opportunity present itself. After much hemming and hawing, and even borrowing a muzzle braked .270 win Savage Weather Warrior, a 7mm-08 Model 70 lightweight carbine, and my own .270wsm loaded with 100 gr Hornady bullets and the Hodgdon "Youth Load" charge of H-4895 and having my 15 year old test them together at the range, I came to the conclusion that none of them were really ideal for what I had in mind. I had already eliminated the 6 mm, since I wanted a heavier bullet option, so I was sort of left with the 25-06 or the 6.5x55 Swede. (Nobody seems to chamber the 257 Roberts, and my budget wouldn't allow a .257 AI to be built) But the 25-06 seemed a little too close to the 6mm in diameter, and the '06 case looked like it would hold a bit more powder than I felt should be needed for my boys, and the old Swede had lots of fervent admirers that didn't ever talk about paper ballistics, they just went on and on about how effective it was on game, even bigger game than should probably be tackled with it. I swallowed hard and had my dealer buddy order me up a Howa 1500 Lightning in 6.5x55.
 Unfortunately, the story doesn't have a happy ending, at least not yet. The new Howa is perfect from a cartgridge standpoint. Minimal recoil with 120 gr handloads and the 140 gr factory loads seem equally mild. The rifle feels great shooting offhand, and is very reliable loading, chambering, firing, and extracting. The problem is just that it doesn't shoot very well. I am going to try glass bedding the action this weekend to try to fix it, but since I have never tried one before, I don't know how it will work out. My shooting buddies are all convinced that all it needs is a bedding job. Sure hope they are right, because if I could get this thing to shoot consistent 1.5 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards off a benchrest, I would be one happy camper. Wish me luck.
   But the 6.5x55 is one nice caliber, provided you can get your rifle to shoot!

Hi All,
 
The .256 is a wonderful size, why I have no idea:rolleyes: but it just seems to work so darned well. I of course am prejudiced having 4 of them. The thing I find amusing is the stories I see especially in American Gun rags about the "Oversize Bores" on especially European 6.5's as if it's carved in stone by God that rifling "Shall only be 0.004" deep" part of their secret I think is that the velocity of them seem to hover around that seemingly magic figure 2400fps which just happens to be the same as the .416 Rigby. It seems that this velocity gives stupendous penetration, go higher and especially on tough game you get bullet skip, lower and it does not penetrate enough. Of course that long pencil like bullet (160 Grn especially) helps a lot.
 
I have an absolutly beautiful classic rifle in .256" which is an antique. he action was made at Steyr in Austria in 1893, it was imported into England as a "Blocked action" the stock was semi inletted but not finish shaped as I understand it and was built up as a Best Sporting Rifle by John Rigby's of London. In all they years it has not been messed with and so it remains in the same configuration as when it left Rigby's workshops. The groove dia of the bore is 0.268" yet the land dia is 0.256" so the groove depth is 0.006" it shoots very well too. I first tried it with some original Kynoch sporting ammuntition I picked up just to check that the sighs were still in regulation, I then worked with the Hornady 160 grn bullets and reloader 19 in re-formed .303 brass and it shoots as close as I can with open Iron sights. Hmm I need to practice with irons more:rolleyes:
 
(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/246725/14055494.jpg)
The Rigby.
 
I would love to hunt Elk with this, however the guide may not approve, friend in the US sent me an article by Ross syfried about a lady who borrowed a rifle very similar to this and she took a Cow Elk with one shot with it. Having absolutely no doubt that ti would do it with 160 grn bullets from Either Hornady or Sierra. Now the cases take a while to make as I don't know of a commercial source for them now but they seems to be almost everlasting. OK I don't shoot this much to many others to play with I suppose:o but if you eer get the chance to handle on of these Model 1892 Mannlichers, well you be amazed at how slick the bolt is, it's like it runs on glass bearings. Mannlicher did do a scope mount for these actions, I very nearly brought a rifle with one before finding this one, it was condition which decided the issue, this was in much better condition so.................
 
Now as with any rifle the chambering decides a lot about case life, my two rifles in the Swedish chambering have also given me very good case life. The Swedish Sprterised Mauser I have is also extremly accurate and has taken a fair number of head of our Deer both Roe and Muntjac, as it came to me the bolt was only bent down however it did not clear the scope so I cut and shut it and had it TIG welded, some time later I had a proper commercial bolt handle fitted and wish I had done it sooner. Te only trouble I ahd with cases in the 6.5x55 was a faulty set of dies which stretched the cases badley, these were replaced by the dealer I got them from. The Deer I have shot with this cartridge, being only Roe or Muntjac are only small but the terminal effects are outstanding. I shot one Roe Doe at about 90 yards using the Hornady 160 Grn bullet and it spung the poor girl about 180 degrees, she dropped on the spot. Trouble is that the offside shoulder, the exit wound was badly blood shot, so I came to the concussion that thing load was just too much for our small deer and I have been using the Speer 120 Grn or Hornady 129 Grn bullets since.
 
(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/876929/28858725.jpg)
The sportersied Swedish Mauser
 
As I liked the cartridge so much I brought another rifle chambered for it, this time is was new one, I got hold of this Onendorf Mauser M96 Slide Bolt, it has a straight pull action and I had high hopes for it, however this rifle has prooved to be more finiky about the bullets and loads it likes. So far I have not been able to equal the accuracy of the Swedish Mauser which had dissappointed me slightly but as we have not exlored all combinations as of yet there is still hope. It's not inaccurate but it's not as good as i woudl expect or like. I have taken a few head of Deer with it including the Muntjac Buck which is mounted above my PC.
 
(http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/876929/10224040.jpg)
The Mauser m96 Slide Bolt.
 
Of course no mention of the 6.5mm can be complete without the real Classic, the 6.5x54MS and the Model 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer which chambered it. What with that classic smooth rotary magazine distinctive butterknife bolt handle and the glass smoothness of the bolt............ well what can one say:D This was one rifle I always wanted but the trouble is the cost......... it seems everyone else wants one too:rolleyes: I finally got mine at a show at the Bisley Pavillion, it had been heavily altered in the stock and the barrel had been re-lined some time in the distant past but the rifling looked good although a bit dark. It turned out the chamber was knackered and out of shape hence the failed cases. It now has a new Steyr made barrel fitted and it shoots very well although I have not had chance to shoot it much yet. It has turned out to eb a restoration project, one which will not be cheap and take some time due to lack of finance. As yet I have not taken any Deer with this one.
 
Hmm thinking on this more as I wrote this, the Schoenauer I have would have done 2ndtimer perfectly once it had been re-barreled that is. The stock was shortened just for a Boy or Lady I think and recoil is neglibable to say the least especially with the 100-120 Grn bullets. That Howa or yours I would have taken it back personally. I also think that you have been better off getting a CZ American chambered in the 6.5x55 cartridge, but that's too late now. I kow just how frustrating it can be when a new rifle does not shoot properly out of the box. I have one like that which I would have sent back but the company is no longer trading, I think this one was just thrown into the stock to get it out f the door in the late days as they were being wound up:confused: Normally they had a very good reputation, it was some whizz kids who brought the firm and raped it then shut it down:confused:

Quote from: 2ndtimer...... I swallowed hard and had my dealer buddy order me up a Howa 1500 Lightning in 6.5x55.
Unfortunately, the story doesn't have a happy ending, at least not yet. The new Howa is perfect from a cartridge standpoint. Minimal recoil with 120 gr handloads and the 140 gr factory loads seem equally mild. The rifle feels great shooting offhand, and is very reliable loading, chambering, firing, and extracting. The problem is just that it doesn't shoot very well. I am going to try glass bedding the action this weekend to try to fix it, but since I have never tried one before, I don't know how it will work out. My shooting buddies are all convinced that all it needs is a bedding job. Sure hope they are right, because if I could get this thing to shoot consistent 1.5 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards off a benchrest, I would be one happy camper. Wish me luck.
But the 6.5x55 is one nice caliber, provided you can get your rifle to shoot!

2ndtimer,
 
Yes, it is always nice when they shoot well ! I have only had a few Howa's to come thru the shop and have never glass-bedded one so I can't help you there except to say "use plenty of release agent". Be sure to check that the barrel is not touching anywhere on the barrel channel. Are you using a "proven" scope? What factory ammo are you using? What bullet and what powder? My personal hunting rifle in 6.5x55 is a CZ550 American and it really gave me fits at first. The best groups from factory ammo came from S&B 131gr..the least expensive ammo on the market but even after glassbedding I was still getting no better than 1.5", 3-shot groups. Now the 6.5x55 seems to prefer "slow" powders like H-4350 for best accuracy. Before reloading for this cartridge I checked the update in Ken Water's "Pet Loads", the best accuracy was with 120gr Nosler BT's(I will get you the 'particulars' later) To make a long story short, using the load and OAL recommended, the first 3-shot group measured...(drum roll)....0.548.....!
 
The factory loadings are rather "puny & weak" and that includes the Hornaday Light Magnum ammo......it chronographed 200fps slower than what was advertised. The 6.5x55 really starts to shine with reloading. Keep us informed as to your results.
 
Ol' John...:D
 
PS...Brithunter......those are some fine looking "classics" you got there!..:cool:

Thanks for the reply, Hondo. I have tried a number of handloads with 100 and 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady 140 gr SP, Speer 140 gr SP, with H-4895, Reloder 19, Accurate XMR4350, Varget, and Vihtavuori N-165. I have loaded all of them in Winchester brass with Winchester Large Rifle primers.
 My factory loads have been just Federal 140 gr Softpoints, and I did shoot one group with the Federal Premium 140 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet. (The Premium load actually printed a nice 1.26 inch 3 shot group) I have actually shot a few decent groups, actually putting 5 Speer 140 gr spitzers into .90 of an inch at 100 yards on one occasion, thinking I had finally found my load, 47 gr of N-165. The next time I went out it averaged around 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards. :mad: I had finally settled on a very mild load of 34.0 gr of H-4895 with the Nosler 120 gr B-Tip, since it had been averaging under 2 inches fairly consistently, then the last time I had it out, it threw up a couple of 3 inch 3 shot groups! I am going to try the glass bedding and see if it helps. One of my buddies said if it were him, he wouldn't waste any more time or components on it until then, I have to agree... Once I get it bedded, I will try some IMR-4350 and Reloder 22 with the 120 gr Nosler and Speers, and a few more with the 140 gr Speers and Hornady's. If it still won't shoot, I may just set it aside and order a Savage in .270 WSM and call it good.
  edit: Scope is a Burris Fullfield II 3x9, same as I have on my Super Shadow in .270WSM, which shoots great.

2ndtimer,
 
Good thing I no longer rely of my memory especially when it comes to reload data. Here it is.....
From Ken Waters "PET LOADS"...6.5x55 Update:
120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip...RL-22...48.0grs....IVI brass...3.01"COL....2780 fps...22"bbl, Win Model 70 using WLR primers.
 
For my loads I substituted Lapua brass and a COL of 2.997".
 
The reason I asked about the scope being "proven" is an event that happened a number of years ago. My cousin and I both purchased Weaver K-4's at the same time. His was mounted on a .270 and mine on my 6.5/06. His 270 was grouping in the .75's and my 6.5/06 was doing 1.50", for some reason I don't now remember we swapped scopes.......you guessed it ... my 6.5/06 groups went to about .90 and his .270 went to 1.50" groups. I sent the scope back to Weaver and told them what had transpired and received a new scope back........Yep...now it would group .85 to .90 and all was right with the world. This event was back in the mid 1960's when the original Weaver steel scopes were available. Just an FYI................
 
Ol' John
 
PS...from what you describe above I would say that you do have a bedding problem which a properly done glassing job will rectify.

First lets look at bullet availability...........

HORNADAY
 
95 gr bt V-MAX, 100 gr Spire Point, 129 gr Spire Point, 129 gr Super Shock Tipped (SST), 140 gr Spire Point, 140 gr SST,  and 160 gr Round Nose.
 
SIERRA
 
85 gr HP, 100 gr HP, 120 gr Spitzer, 140 gr Spitzer bt, 160 gr Semi-Pointed
 
SPEER
 
90 gr HP-TNT, 120 gr Spitzer, 140 gr Spitzer, 140 gr Grand Slam, 140 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (25 bullets for $26.99..GASP!!!!!)
 
REMINGTON
 
120 gr PSP Core-Lok and 140 gr PSP Core-Lok
 
NOSLER
 
...Partitions--100gr, 125 gr, 140 gr..........Ballistic Tips....100 gr and 120 gr.
 
As you can see there is a large number and types of bullets available for most any hunting purpose from varmints to Elk, Sheep, Goat and Moose.
 
I have left out purposely the bullets designed for competitive shooting as they will be discussed in a future post.  Yes there are other bullet manufacturers ie..Swift, Barnes, Magtech, Norma, Lapua, Berger, Lost River Ballistics (box of 20 for $34.35..OUCH!!!!), and Woodleigh(50 for $26.99...I don't think so)
 
I am not so sure about these premium-high dollar bullets.  If you think they are worth it then by all means....!
 
Ol' John...;) :D

Hi All,
 
    In the sporterised Swedish mauser Speer 120 grn IMR 4350 45.5 Grns COL 3.005" WLR brass was NNY heastamped. This groups about 5/8"
 
     
 
     Now 2nd timer if you cannot get that howa shootign right. I would not give up on the Swedish Cartridge. I really would suggest that you look at the CZ 550 American, it's a very nie rifle and as Hondo can tell you quite accurate too;) . My Model 601 did not need bedding I ahve nevr touched it just shot it but that's in .308 Win. Good luck on your quest.

Brithunter,
 
Yes, I really like my CZ550 American........but......let us not forget the Ruger 77MkII in 6.5x55....really, really nice......trigger is kinda cruddy but Timney makes an excellent after-market which is easily installed even with the filing necessary to get the safety to work properly.....The Ruger is still the factory rifle that fits me the best.
 
Ol' John

Interesting reading fellows. I have a little experience with the 6.5. However, in all fairness, I can't get too far away from my old 7x57. Consequently, that lovely little 6.5 does not get the opportunities it deserves. I did take a fairly nice, heavy Bull Elk about 10 / 12 years ago, and if better performance is desireable, I am not astute enough to know where it would have been applied.
 
 
Ol' John has picked a good one here.
Like the 7x57, it's "killing" power is far beyond that of it's paper ballistics. Someone mention earlier that the 2400fps mark held something "mystic". I agree 100%. Albeit, this may be the first time I have heard someone else voice this. My three "favorite" guns, the 6.5x55, the 7x57, and the 35 Whelen, all work in that 2400fps range.
That long bullet driven at the 2400fps velocity does indeed seem to perform some kind of magic, when compared to the magnums.
 
I am not a Magnum fan. I have never learned to appreciate them properly, and in all actuality, I prefer the 6.5 or 7x57 over any of the magnums I own, and I own three of them.
 
A fellow could do a lot worse in selecting a caliber. The main thing about this little jewell is "shootabilty", that delivers tremendous horse power where it's needed most.
 
The 6.5x55 was not broken, and didn't need fixin, when the Greenbox Gun Company introduced the .260....but that's progress, I suppose.

This thread got me jazzed enough that I had to take the Howa 6.5x55 out to the range in the balmy 18° F weather after shimming the action. Cut a business card into 3 little squares that exactly fit behind the recoil lug on the stock, bolted the action back on and away I went. The first group with the H-4895 was horrible, about 3 1/2 inches for three shots at 100 yards. But at least it was centered. Then I tried the 140 gr Speer with 47 gr of Vihtavuori N-165, and it was a pretty decent triangular group that was around an 1 3/4 inches. Encouraged, I cranked off another group, thought maybe I pulled the third shot. Walked down to take a look (nobody else crazy enough to be out there with a wind chill of about zero degrees F and the Steelers/Jets playoff game on TV), and was stunned to find a nice tight group less than 3/4 of an inch. Just for good measure, I decided to try one more group. The one nice thing about shooting when it is that cold is that your barrel cools off almost instantly. But I only wanted to shoot one more since it was starting to snow and my non 4 wheel drive Mazda pickup is not the best rig on slick roads, so I fired off 3 shots with Varget and the 120 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and was happy to see a nice 1.25 inch group. So it would seem that my rifle would truly benefit from a bedding job, since even the 3 business cards seemed to help quite a bit. I may even load some of those Reloder 22 loads suggested by Hondo and try to get back out there tomorrow or Monday just to see how they shoot with the "shimmed" action.

No. ;)
 
Paul

Personally, I would rate the .264 caliber class 3rd, behind the .284 and .308, as my favorite.  This don't mean it still isn't perfect;  just 3rd perfect in my eye's  ;o)  .
 
I've not a lot of experience with a large gambit of cartridges in the class, but have worked quite a bit with one in particular     ...     the .264 WinMag.  I know the originator of this string has little use for such a round, but in terms of pure "perfection", I do believe this specific cartridge has reached that pinnicle classification as an antelope cartridge.  Other cartridges come to mind that would serve the need well, but in terms of matching bullet weight to game and ballistic performance to the terrain I see, this cartridge is sweet.
 
I've never considered going to the smaller cartridges of the class.  Figured I'd leave those for you fellers.
 
I would imagine there is an AccuBond on its way for cartridges in this class.  I'm looking forward to seeing what weight Nosler chooses to go with.  Later.  >>  klallen

I'm the owner of four 6.5X55 rifles. After a lot of test with different powders, bullets, and primers, my results show that RL-22 is by far the best powder for the 6.5X55. The 140 grain Hornady Interlock and the 129 grain Hornady interlock are both very accurate bullets loaded above a heafty charge of RL-22. I will not post my best charge of RL-22 because it's well above book max but I will tell you that the 6.5X55 really starts to shine when you exceed 48 grains of RL-22. In my hunting rifle, I was testing the 140 grain Hornady over RL-22 and loads of 47, 48, 49, and 50 grains seated to the exact same depth, same brass, and primer. The results of the 47 and 48 grain loads was almost 1.5 five shot group. Not to bad. The 49 grain loads dropped the group to just under .75 for a five shot group. The charge I finally settled on and now load will give me consistant .400 and if I don't drink a lot of coffee, once in a while I'll get one down to under.350 inches. All four of my 6.5X55's love the RL-22 powder. By the way, two of my rifles are full military M96 Swedish Mausers, one is a sporterized M38 Swedish military Mauser and I have one custom made 6.5X55 on a large ring Mauser action. I don't load the three small ring actions as heavy as I do my large ring action, but they are still above 48 grains of powder. I have read a good starting point with RL-22 is 46.5 grains and work up from there.
 
 
I also own a Howa in .243. Nice accurate little rifle. I've owned it for over 20 years. I just got finished re-stocking that barreded action in a Boyds Laminated wood stock. It wore a Bell and Carlson synthetic for almost 20 years. Don't give up on that little rifle. Their nice and will shoot. Give the RL-22 an honest hard look and test. You'll find a load the rifle likes.

HondoJohn,
 
Lets get back to the original question:  Is this the perfect calibre?
 
Now we all no there is no such thing as a perfect calibre, every calibre falls short in some area but some have wider application than others and are therefore more "perfect" than others.
 
I would say that the 6.5's have the edge over the .25's and 6mm's because it will fire the heavier bullets (6mm max = 105gr, 2.5 = 120gr, 6.5 goes up to 165gr).
 
6.5's are available in bullets from 85gr up to 165gr making it one of the calibres with the widest range of bullet weights. (compare it to the 270 which basically has the 130, 140 and 150gr bullets although there are also 110gr available).
 
Sure, compared to the 7mm and the 30 calibre, the 6.5 is marginal for the larger game species.  On the other hand, with the right bullets, the 6.5 is capable of taking on fairly large game reliably. The edge it has over the larger calibres is that the 6.5 can also be turned into a very capable varmint cartridge with the lighter bullets.  Yes you can hunt varmints with a heavier calibre but they border on being "too much gun" (from a recoil & power point of view).
 
One of the factors which makes the 6.5 applicable to such a wide range of applications is the fact that these rifles are usually produced with fast twist rates making them capable of handling a wide range of bullet weights.
 
If you're a hunter who hunts mostly light game and also find quite a bit of varminting application, I believe the 6.5 would fit your needs better than the heavier calibres. If you occasionally shoot heavier game, the 6.5 will not be as well adapted to this use as the heavier calibres but this is where it has a significant edge over the .25's and the 6mm's (with the right bullet).
 
So, yes, I believe the 6.5 can stake a claim to being one of the most "perfect" calibres.
 
I will now go and find a good hiding place to weather the storm of contrary opinion which I am sure will follow.
 
C

Is 6.5 the perfect cal? Mmmm, I'm not sure I'd say yes, but then I like 7mm rounds and am about to start loading for 8mm Mauser. ;)
 
The question you're almost asking, and I say almost, is "is 6.5 the only cal we need?" :confused:
 
Remember it's a short step from there to the one-gun-for-all-occasions and we shouldn't encourage our wives on that one. :D
 
So everyone seems to admire & respect the Swede if not love it. What about those other shorter 6.5mm rounds......the Schoenauer, the Carcano or the 6.5x50 Jap?

Quote from: kombi1976The question you're almost asking, and I say almost, is "is 6.5 the only cal we need?" :confused:
 
Remember it's a short step from there to the one-gun-for-all-occasions and we shouldn't encourage our wives on that one. :D
 

No, the point I am pressing forward is that the 6.5 caliber is a very good place to begin building your battery of personal firearms. Being a person of a somewhat "frugal" nature by having different rifles for different purposes using the same caliber (not cartridge) seems to me to be economically reasonable.
My personal 6.5 battery "ready to go" at this time includes 3 in 6.5x55 and a 6.5/06. Within the next 2 days or so, my "RED-DAWG" will be completed, a 6.5-08(260) Ackley Improved. I also have a Savage 10FP chambered for the 260 Rem. The 6.5BR referred to in another thread is nearing completion. On the drawing board to be completed if I live long enough are the 6.5x55 BJAI, a .260 AAR and the 6.5/06 Ackley Improved. Each have an intended purpose except for the .260 AAR(I just want one in this cartridge!) All can be built on the readily available '98 Mauser actions except for the 6.5/06 AI(I have a Remington 78 action and a '03 Springfield action set aside for that one.)
 
It has been rumored by some that I am a bit of a "fan" of the 6.5 bore! Well..YES........I suppose I am! However, I am also persuing the .323 and .338 bores as well...........I suffer from 'rifle-itis & bore-itis'...for which there is no known cure......except for the inevitable headstone!
 
Lets continue the adventure......I am having fun and hope you are too!
 
Ol' John..;) :D :cool:

This is just an observation, John, but for someone who seems to hold such distain for 6.5 magnums(including, I gather, the 6.5/284) you aren't afraid to use "standard" supercharged 6.5 wildcat cartridges. The 6.5-06 AI would be close on the tail of the 6.5/284 I'd suspect, just as the .280 AI is close on the heels of the 7mm Rem Mag.

RumRunner was talking about the mystic 2400fps. Do you prescribe to this and primarily use heavy projectiles like the European loads or are you using these high performance cartridges to gain speed and a flat trajectory?

John,
 
Now, arguing for a battery of arms built around one caliber IS an idea I can embrace. Personally my choice would be .323" not .264", but then that's what makes horse races.
 
I would also offer the idea of making a battery of arms of different calibers built on a single case - Oh say the 57mm or even - dare I say it - the .308? :)

Paul

Quote from: kombi1976This is just an observation, John, but for someone who seems to hold such distain for 6.5 magnums(including, I gather, the 6.5/284) you aren't afraid to use "standard" supercharged 6.5 wildcat cartridges. The 6.5-06 AI would be close on the tail of the 6.5/284 I'd suspect, just as the .280 AI is close on the heels of the 7mm Rem Mag.
 
RumRunner was talking about the mystic 2400fps. Do you prescribe to this and primarily use heavy projectiles like the European loads or are you using these high performance cartridges to gain speed and a flat trajectory?

kombi,
 
RR has a good point about the "mystic 2400fps" -- a lot of folks prescribe to this idea and I certainly can't argue with their "follow the blood trail" as that works for them. But I am getting older and as the years creep up on me I have noticed I am hunting closer & closer to the road. First & foremost.......I am a meat hunter..period..if a trophy comes by I am definitely a "happier" camper. Texas Hill country whitetail are small so all the more reason I am a meat hunter. I take only 2 kinds of shots....broadside into the lungs,preferably the upper half and a neck shot - deer looking at me..I aim just under the white spot on the throat. If I don't get either of those two shots...I wave as the deer runs off and tell him/her...."see ya next time!" I am NOT an advocate of punch 2 holes and follow the blood-trail.........I much prefer one hole and usually use light for caliber rapidly expanding bullets about as fast as I can push them accurately!
 
As to the 6.5/06 AI vs. the 6.5/284...well, I have the reamer and dies for the 6.5/06 AI already and my plans are for 2 rifles in this caliber...one for long range "F" class competition and the other for super long-range varminting...we are talking 500 yards plus.
Many high-power competitiors have gone to the 6.5/284 and are winning, winning, winning!
At 62 years of age and NO experience at this type of competitive shooting I will be competing for FUN and to GAIN KNOWLEDGE! The "F" class competition sounds to me like a nice way to spend a weekend with folks that like to shoot! The ol' body is definitely on the decline but the mind is still pretty young at heart and the search for knowledge keeps the brain cells churning!
 
As to the .280 AI...yeehaa! I would really like one of those! I still have a Remington 721 in the gun cabinet in '06....so maybe...but its pretty far down on the list. The possibilites with the 6.5 calibers and the .323 and .338 bores are gonna keep me pretty busy for the time being. I have great hopes for the 338x57 MAI that Paul and I have been working with.......He will have one ready to go by the next Caribou season and I will be watching from the sidelines waiting for the report and the mandatory "pics"!
 
Best regards,
 
Ol' John...;) :D

Quote from: gitanoJohn,
 
Now, arguing for a battery of arms built around one caliber IS an idea I can embrace. Personally my choice would be .323" not .264", but then that's what makes horse races.
 
I would also offer the idea of making a battery of arms of different calibers built on a single case - Oh say the 57mm or even - dare I say it - the .308? :)
 
Paul

ABSOLUTELY!....POSITIVELY!....WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!
 
In the 57mm case....257 Roberts, 257 'Bob' AI (which you already have), so how about a .260 AAR (257 AI necked up to 6.5), 7mm Mauser and the AI version, 8mm Mauser and an AI(I have the reamer), our joint venture the 338x57 MAI....sounds like a plan!
 
308 case (aka 51mm), 260 Rem & the 6.5/08 AI, 7/08, 323/08, 338/08 or perhaps the .358 Winchester(hope I can get some pics of a custom 358 I recently had the opportunity to peruse...lots of possibilites on this one!).
 
Pick the caliber and choose the 51mm or the 57mm and go with what game is available in your particular part of the world....People will say WHY?.....You already know the answer to that one.
 
Ol' John..:D ;)

Perfect for what? If it's deer the answer is yes. If it's elk the answer is not unless you are a real good shot and can pass on bad shot angles. I love the 6.5's but there is a scarcity of bullets to play with and play I must. If you like to experiment you'll run out of things to do in a hurry. But maybe that's why I need to own more guns! I think that the 30 calibers are the best because of an overabundance of bullets to try. They also seem to handle the larger stuff on this continent well. They recoil more but thats why I like the 6.5's and my 270. Goc bless.

Hi All,
 
    Now Ol' John my dear felow you seem to have stopped short on thses:-
 
" In the 57mm case....257 Roberts, 257 'Bob' AI (which you already have), so how about a .260 AAR (257 AI necked up to 6.5), 7mm Mauser and the AI version, 8mm Mauser and an AI(I have the reamer), our joint venture the 338x57 MAI....sounds like a plan! "
 
    Err where's the 9x57, 9.3x57 and the 9.5x57 ( .375 RNE), the 6.5x57 already exists and has done so for many years, 7.5x57 would be interesting as it would be a .30x57mm! I do believe that in Europe there is also a 5.6x57 whihc is one screamer of a cartridge along the likes of the 220 Swift;)
 
    As for 6.5 or .264" for use on Elk............. did anyone else read the article where the lady borrowed and old Steyr  Model 1892 Sporting rifle in 6.5x53R and stalkked and shot a Cow Elk using the original iron sights. The Elk dropped with the one shot at about 90 yards. I have the article here somewhere as a nice American I know sent it too me. He has one of these rifles as well, I know as I found it for him and put him in touch with the dealer and they sorted it from there. Oh the cartiridge used was laoded with the 160 Grn RN bullet. Now as for bullet selection in 6.5 well they go from 77 grains up to 160 grains!

I thought I had heard that the 6.5 actually performs best with "heavy for Calibre" 160 grain bullets and that I read somewhere I think its the Lee Reloading manual that at distances 300yds and further the 6.5 actually had better velocity and ft/lbs of energy than a 308 winchester and people talk about the 308 as being one of the better if the best short action high power calibres. So if that's the case there can't be too many things wrong with it.
 
I used to own one (a swede army rifle with a aftermarket sporter stock) and it loved Israele Military 160 gr bullets.....I did not hand load for it........I had it at the local gun shop cause I could not get it to group very well with 139 gr Winchester factory only 2" at 100 yds spread out massive at 200 yds from a vise. Gunsmith said "the barrel is only 19 1/4 inches long you lucky it carries out to 200 yds." Too make a long story short it had a sloppy trigger, and a sticky action and punted my wife on the range (she is better shot than me, LOL (and a beginner)) so we bought a 243......thats my knowledge of the 6.5.

Hi Big Red Trie,

     ell I have two rifles chambered in 6.5x55 Swedish, one is a sporterised Mauser which has a20" barrel and it shoots just fine using Speer 120 Grn bullets, usually about 3/4" groups. The other is a Mauser M96 Slide Bolt which also has a 20" barrel, this prefers 140  Grn bullets but both shoot the 160 grain bullets well.
 
   You said:-
 
" I used to own one (a swede army rifle with a aftermarket sporter stock) and it loved Israele Military 160 gr bullets.....I did not hand load for it........I had it at the local gun shop cause I could not get it to group very well with 139 gr Winchester factory only 2" at 100 yds spread out massive at 200 yds from a vise. Gunsmith said "the barrel is only 19 1/4 inches long you lucky it carries out to 200 yds." Too make a long story short it had a sloppy trigger, and a sticky action and punted my wife on the range (she is better shot than me, LOL (and a beginner)) so we bought a 243......thats my knowledge of the 6.5. "
 
    Well I have never heard of the "Israele Military 160 gr bullets", I was not aware that Isreal used the 6.5mm. I thought they used 7.62x51 then the 5.56 Nato cartridges:eek:  
 
And as for that Gunsmith................ well I would find another one. One who knows what he is talking about because that clearly does not. Clearly there wasa problem with that rifle which needed sorting out, the trigger is easily done or replaced, the stock I doubt was fitted correctly or was a poor design as it sounds like it was bending the action to make it bind. A simple bedding job would have sort that out :rolleyes:  now wiht these faults it's hardly surprising that it didn't shoot very well, I gather by reading between the lines that the .243 was aquired from said gunsmith? Hmmm not impressed:mad:
 
      Oh and I have shot targets at 300 yards with a .41AE semi auto pistol with a 4" barrel:D  and yes the bullets reached it quite comfortably thank you;) .
 
     Also in 6.5mm among my collection is a Mannlicher 1903 Schoenauer 6.5x54MS and a Mannlicher Model 1892 in 6.5x53R. As yet I ahve not shot deer with these two but the 6.5x55 rifles I ahve shot quite a few deer plus some foxes. You say I have a bit of a soft spot for the 6.5's, but if you read my earlier reply you would have noticed I also mentioned the 7x57 as an excellent cartridge as well;)

Friends & Neighbors,
 
My apologies for not continuing this thread in a more rapid fashion.  There are three cartridges that I do not have in my collection, the 6.5 Grendel, the 6.5/284 and the historic .256 Newton.  Well, I managed to locate a feller in California that sells the above cartridges and they are on their way.  I will make some pics and then continue the discussion.  Thanks for you patience.
 
Ol' John

Hi John,

     I gather that you DO have one of the 6.5x53R cartridges then? and of course it's slightly later rimless counter part the 6.5x54MS! which of course were also known as the .256 Mannlicher.

    If not let me know and I just might be able to help having some of both;)

Quote from: BrithunterHi All,
 
Now Ol' John my dear felow you seem to have stopped short on thses:-
 
" In the 57mm case....257 Roberts, 257 'Bob' AI (which you already have), so how about a .260 AAR (257 AI necked up to 6.5), 7mm Mauser and the AI version, 8mm Mauser and an AI(I have the reamer), our joint venture the 338x57 MAI....sounds like a plan! "
 
Err where's the 9x57, 9.3x57 and the 9.5x57 ( .375 RNE), the 6.5x57 already exists and has done so for many years, 7.5x57 would be interesting as it would be a .30x57mm! I do believe that in Europe there is also a 5.6x57 whihc is one screamer of a cartridge along the likes of the 220 Swift;)
 
........

Brithunter, my friend & neighbor....
 
You were quite right in bringing me to task on the larger diameter calibers that I had totally left out.  Now that I am receiving monthly social security checks I could use the excuse of advancing age but that would only be partially correct.  I have always been a small bore feller and the majority of my interest/time has been spent in acquiring knowledge in that particular area.  It was only in the last couple of years that I began an interest in the 338 calibres due to our good friend in Alaska, Gitano.  The calibres you speak of, from what I have been to read, are good ones and serve their purpose well.  Unfortunately they have not been available to me.  If you have some pics of these various cartridges I would ask that you post them and a bit of history or other info that would be helpful.  I personally would appreciate any knowledge you could pass on to those of us wishing to expand our personal data bases.
 
Best regards,
 
Ol' John:D ;)

Quote from: BrithunterHi John,
 
I gather that you DO have one of the 6.5x53R cartridges then? and of course it's slightly later rimless counter part the 6.5x54MS! which of course were also known as the .256 Mannlicher.
 
If not let me know and I just might be able to help having some of both;)

Brithunter,
 
As a matter of fact, NO I DON'T, my collection is VOID of the european calibers totally. I would like to expand my knowledge on any calibers you have mentioned. Please send me a PM on what you may have available for trade and/or purchase. I had thought of contacting CAfrica for some examples of the calibers available in South Africa. I wonder if there are any restrictions (ie..government meddling!) that we would have to abide by! In the meantime thank you for your offer to provide some examples. Lets see what we can come up with.
 
Ol' John...:rolleyes:

Hi John,

 Pm sent as requested:D

  Now I do have here the 9.3x57 Mauser plus the rifle to go with it;)  I also have some 9.5x57 by G. Roth which is marked Mod 1910 which means it's for the Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1910 and I also have a box of Kynock 9.5x57 which is also marked Manlicher-Schonauer. Now the 9.5x57 was not a European design actually as I have (somewhere) a drawing kindly supplied by the late P. Labbat which shows it wa sdesigned in 1908 for Westly Richards and called the .375 RNE ( Rimless Nitro Express) of course this is 2 years before Mannlicher adopted the cartridge. Mauser also chambered for the 9.5x57 as a standard offering but the 9.3x57 was special order as it was mainly a Swedish cartridge.
 
   9x57 was also a std Mauser offering in their sporting rifles but I do not have one of them, and I just looked up the 5.6x57 and it seems that there was also a rimmed version as well as the rimless. This cartridge was and may still be vry popular in Ireland as they banned all but .22 centrefire rifles at one time. The 5.6x57 uses a 74 Grain bullet at about 3250 fps and was found to be useful in shooting the Red Stags and Sika Stags found in Ireland, now you are allowed to use up to a .270 cal but no more than that:rolleyes: .  In the next week of so I will try to get of scans or photos of the various boxes and see if i can find that dawing, but don't hold your breathe as I never sem to find the time to do everything I want to or should for that matter:rolleyes:
 
   Back to  6.5's there is alos a 6.5x57R and a 6.5x68 and the 6.5x68 Schuler if I remember correctly which was designed for cross gorge shots at Chamois in the Alps. Boy you have a lot to catch up on :eek: :D ;)
 
    Oh I may be able to aquire a 7x65R cartridge as Cliff has a double rifle in that chambering;)

I'm a new guy here, however, IMHO...there is no perfect caliber. It depends upon what you are hunting and the range you expect to be shooting. My brother's first deer rifle was a 6.5 x 55 swede. Nice gun but not my pick for a cross canyon Elk shot. I definitely wouldn't take one on a brown bear hunt. For a 300 yard and in deer rifle the numbers are good. My 2 cents....regards, Rick. OBTW...My deer rifle is a Steyr 7x57....it ain't perfect but at my old  age, it's nice shooting a cartridge that doesn't hurt me as much as the deer!!

Hey Ol John.Howdy neighbor.I am thinking seriously about having a chamber cut for a 6.5-284.I haven`t made up my mind yet for sure.It is still up in the air versus having a 6mm-284.I sure like the looks of that 6.5-284 though.It may win out in the end.

If you're tossing up which one to have your rifle chambered in go the 6.5/284. It's an established cartridge and the cases are comercially available from Norma(correct me if I'm wrong) if you aren't interested in necking down your own. Plus it has a good history of long distance accuracy. Remember that 6.5 cal just happens to be an excellent cal for ballistic coefficient and sectional density. It's also about the bottom cal you want to use for an all round cartridge.

IMHO of course. ;)

sakorick-Timberghozt-Kombi1976-et al,
 
Thanks for your posts gents! My apologies for not getting to the "particular cartridges" promptly as I had hoped. Remember that my original title was the "perfect caliber"! My earlier post concerning particular cartridges I wanted to say a few words about are on order and I hope for them to be arriving soon, the 6.5/284 is one of them.
 

QuoteI definitely wouldn't take one on a brown bear hunt.

sakorick...neither would I and that includes polar bears, neighbor! But for everything else, from prairie dogs to moose, there is a cartridge and a particular 6.5 bullet that will do the job required and do it exceeding well. We will discuss this subject in more detail when I finally get the pics done.
 
Best regards,
 
Ol' John..:D ..;) ..:cool:

Quote from: HondoJohn6508Quote:
I definitely wouldn't take one on a brown bear hunt.
sakorick...neither would I and that includes polar bears, neighbor!

Well, this may freak you out a little.......the Finns were using 6.5x55 to shoot polar bears up in the Artic Circle in the early 20th century before all the big magnums were developed and before everyone said only a real barrel-burning-big-bore(cool alliteration ;) ) could kill bears. :eek:
Yep, freaky, eh.
I won't say the 6.5 Swede isn't capable of it because in terms of penetration 6.5 seems to be an excellent performer, but you'd really want to make that first shot count......:confused:

Hey Ol John.Pardon my inducition of cartridge choice of the 6.5mm diameter bullet. Actually I am interested in it in a few facets too include either the 6.5 -06, 264WM or 6.5-284.I have never played with the 6.5 diameter.So it will be a learning experience for me.

2ndtimer. I also have a Howa 1500 that did'nt group under 2 1/2 until I did two things. First make sure the barrel is floated all the way. The fellow at Legacy told me they don't float them for cosmetic reasons. The other is to put a piece of duct tape on the stock flat behind where the recoil lug fits. This allows better fit without any stress on the action. Hope it works for you.

Quote from: TimberghoztHey Ol John.Pardon my inducition of cartridge choice of the 6.5mm diameter bullet. Actually I am interested in it in a few facets too include either the 6.5 -06, 264WM or 6.5-284.I have never played with the 6.5 diameter.So it will be a learning experience for me.

Good to see you here.  The cartridges that I am waiting on should be here tomorrow or Thursday.  Just read an interesting article by John Barsness on the ".264 Win Magnum":p  and I must say it was interesting and informative.  We will be getting to that particular 6.5 cartridge very soon.
 
Ol' John;)

The 6.5's are my second favorite group of cartridges. I've owned 2, 6.5x55's, a 264 win. mag., and a 260 rem. They were all acurate rifles the 264 the best , averaging under moa with most any load I fed it. I shot deer with it and the bullets usually blew up unless noslers were used. The little 6.5's at 2400 to 2700 with 140 and 160 grain bullets actually killed as well and ruined less meat. The 264 didn't seem to shoot much flatter than my 270s ( and was heavy )so I gave it to my son who still has it. He was a Marine and is tough enough to own it. God bless and good hunting.

Quote from: HondoJohn6508Just read an interesting article by John Barsness on the ".264 Win Magnum"     ...     we will be getting to that particular 6.5 cartridge very soon.

:eek:
 
Please clear something up for me.  Are you saying that you are looking to buy yourself a .264 WinMag very soon or you're just looking to talk about the cartridge very soon here on THL.
 
Careful how you choose to answer that question.  One unexpected answer (and I'm sure you know which one that would be) and I'd be knocked plumb off my chair !!!  ;o)
 
Take it easy, HONDO.  >>  klallen

Quote from: klallen:eek:
 
Please clear something up for me. Are you saying that you are looking to buy yourself a .264 WinMag very soon or you're just looking to talk about the cartridge very soon here on THL.
 
Careful how you choose to answer that question. One unexpected answer (and I'm sure you know which one that would be) and I'd be knocked plumb off my chair !!! ;o)
 
Take it easy, HONDO. >> klallen

klallen,
 
No worries, amigo........you do not have to be concerned about "knocked plumb off my chair!!!" --I would not want to take responsibility for any such event. However, I will take responsibility for the "eyes widening and staggering back a few steps" with the statement of......"a definite NO...to a perhaps MAYBE!!"! That should give you a great pause to reconsider your personal brand of bourbon and life as we know it! When we get to that part of this diatribe of mine concerning the 6.5 caliber, I will elicit most strenuously your personal input as regards the "264 Winchester Magnum", so please be patient.
 
HAR! HAR! HAR!...:D :D :D (I am laughing with you..not at you!)
 
Ol' John;)

Hello all,

 
I, like many on this forum, have been considering a 6.5 and specifically have been researching the differences between a 6.5x55 and a 6.5-06.  I reload and will be using a Charles Daly standard long action for the rifle.  
 
My question is this, for the 6.5-06 and using 140 gr. bullets, it seems that I would lose some case capacity in the 6.5-06 since I believe 140 grainers would not be able to be seated out very far and still fit in the magazine.  Since the 6.5x55 case is shorter and the bullets can be seated out further and still fit in the magazine, can I end up with similar velocities in the 6.5x55 as in the 6.5-06 with 140 gr. bullets?  Also, is the 6.5x55 with a shorter powder column any more "efficient"?
 
Second question:  The base diameter of the 6.5-06 (.30-06) case is .473" and the base diameter of the 6.5x55 case is .479".  I understand that American 6.5x55 brass (Winchester and Remington) is .473", but that Lapua brass is .479".  Since the bolt face of my action is .473", and if I decide to chamber for 6.5x55, is it worth having the bolt face opened-up to use Lapua brass, which I understand is significantly better?
 
Thanks for any thoughts and opinions,
 
NCBullshooter

Here are my OPINIONS NC. I do not think you can achieve '06 velocites with the 55mm case.
 
I wouldn't even consider for a second, modifying my rifle so I could use Lapua brass. Is Lapua brass good? Sure. Is it better that other brass? I have used it, and I really don't consider it better in ballistic performance. MAYBE if you were shooting long range competition, but othersies, absolutely not.
 
Paul

NCBullshooter,
 
Good questions and I would certainly agree with Gitano in his assessment. My first question is what is your planned use for the rifle? Second, I have been unable to determine the length of the magazine on the CD action. Nothing is available on the Charles Daly website. Could you possibly measure the length of your magazine box with a caliper?
 
A cartridge with the higher powder capacity will always produce higher velocities, especially with the heavier weight bullets..........but sometimes by not very much. I am researching data at the present time for my continuing posts on the various standards, Ackley Improved and wildcat cartridges that I have rounds for and pictures to post. Probably by late Saturday I will have everything compliled and begin posting my findings. I hope you will stick around until then. The cartridges that will be covered are: 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 BR, 260 Remington and 6.5/08(.260) Ackley Improved, 6.5x55 Swede and Ackley Improved, 6.5x257 Roberts and Ackley Improved (260 AAR), 6.5-06 and Ackley Improved, 6.5x284 and .264 Winchester Magnum. One other cartridge will be covered simply because of its historical context.......the 256 Newton, the first high-intensity 6.5 cartridge that began it all about 90 years ago.
 
Ol' John...:rolleyes: ;) :cool:

Thanks Gitano and John,

I appreciate your opinions and I agree that I don't think there would be much to be gained from opening up the bolt face a very small amount to use 6.5x55 Lapua brass.  I have only used Winchester brass up to now and have found it very acceptable for my purposes.  
 
John, I measured the Charles Daly long action's magazine and the internal length dimension is 3.408".  (They show this action as Model #CDGM2206)  Please let me know if you can use any other measurements.  Do you think this length magazine would let me chamber for 6.5-06 and still seat 140 grainers out to where they don't infringe too much on case capacity?
 
I am not a competition shooter, but like most every rifle shooter, I do enjoy small groups.  I enjoy reloading and shoot quite a bit at my local club range.  ( Like Gov. Ventura, I believe gun control should be defined as putting three rounds in the same hole.)  The 6.5 rifle I hope to build will be a longer range deerhunting rifle, hopefully that would be capable of 300-400 yard shots, but only when I'm 100% capable at those distances.  I plan on taking the rifle on a western Mule Deer hunt in the next year or so in Montana, where my brother lives and guides part time.  He tells me 300+ yards are not that uncommon and he hunts with a custom .270 Ackley Improved for both Deer and Elk.  (Although I believe I shoot reasonably well, I do not feel capable yet of shooting at a big game animal from a field position and typical field conditions past 300 yards.)  Mostly I want the new 6.5 rifle to be my "go to" rifle that I become most comfortable with and that I shoot most often.  Also, I want the rifle to fill what I think is a bit of a gap in my battery; I have a Ruger 77 MKII rechambered to .243 Ackley Improved and a .30-06 Ackley Improved built on a Legacy Sports 98 Mauser action that I am close to completing that will be an Elk rifle.  I chose the 6.5 caliber because 6.5 140 grainers will fit well between the 100 grain bullets I commonly use in my .243 and the 180 grainers I intend to use to hunt Elk.  Plus, it's hard to beat the excellent sectional density and BC's of those 6.5 140 grainers.  The hard part is choosing between the 6.5x55 and 6.5-06, or their improved cousins.  The easy part is that I don't think I could go wrong with any of them.  I have never owned one of these calibers so any opinions are much appreciated.
 
Also, does anyone have any other thoughts to consider between the 6.5-06 and 6.5x55?  I am going to order a Shilen chrome moly blank, probably #3 contour, in .264 with a 1-8" twist in the next couple of weeks.  I will not want the barrel any longer than 23 or 24".  Any ideas on instructions to discuss with a gunsmith about chambering? - I have heard that the 6.5x55 reamers out there vary a lot regarding throat lengths?  Would there need to be specific throat instructions for either of these cartridges?  Is it typical for a gunsmith to be able to set a throat if I sent along a dummy cartridge with the bullet set at a particular depth and is this recommended?
 
Thanks again,
 
NCBullshooter

NCBullshooter,
 
I would definitely go with the 6.5-06 in this instance and a barrel length of no less that 24". COL would be 3.400", using a 140gr Sierra GK which is 1.275"in length bullet seating depth would be 0.359". The 6.5-06 neck length is 0.321 which indicates that the bullet will intrude into the powder room by .038" which is essentially nothing. Load From A Disc ballistics program indicates you could expect velocities of just under 3000fps with a load of 54.0grs of H-4831 which is a slightly compressed load. I personally would use H-4831 SC rather than the standard H-4831. They show this is be a pressure rating of about 52,000 CUP and they consider this to be high pressure but just barely. Expect a PM from me sometime today.
 
Ol' John
 
PS.....The 1 in 8" twist sounds a little fast to me.  I will check on that later and post data when I have completed the necessary math.

Well, Friends & Neighbors........The cartridges I was waiting for finally arrived (last Friday) and I finally managed to get the pics done, downloaded and edited.
 
First--an overview of all the cartridges...........Here they are!!!!:D
 
Left to Right...........
 
6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Rem BR, 6.5-08 Ackley, 260 Rem, 6.5x55 BJAI, 6.5x55 Swede, 6.5x257 Ackley[260 AAR(ALL AROUND RIFLE)], 6.5x57, 6.5-06 Ackley,6.5-06, 6.5/284, 256 Newton, 264 Winchester Magnum.

Hondo, pardon my ignorance but what exactly is the 6.5x55BJAI. It sure is aneat looking cartridge.
 
Mark

Lets take the little guys first.......................... Left to right.....

6.5 GRENDEL - Bolt face of .453, the same as the 7.62x39 Russian.  This little cartridge has gained great popularity with the High Power competition crowd usually in the AR-10 type rifles.  Velocity in the 2900fps range with the 100-110 grain VLD competition bullets.  
 
6.5 REMINGTON BR - Bolt face of .473, the same as the 308 Winchester.  Originally started as a benchrest cartridge but was lacking the necessary accuracy to be competitive.
 
Both of these cartridges have similiar case capacities, the BR having the slight edge.  As a hunting cartridge best with bullets of 100grain or less.  The 6.5 Rem BR was the cartridge I selected for the other thread on building a rifle using the Chas Daly Mini-Mauser.

The next bunch fit the short or medium lenght actions.................
 
.260 REMINGTON - A cartridge for the short actions. Powder capacity about the same as the 6.5x55 Swede. In modern heat-treaded actions you can expect the following velocities.
...85 grain...3600fps.........120 grain....3100fps....140 grain....2820fps.
 
6.5-08 ACKLEY IMPROVED - (260 AI) - Another for the short actions. The benefits of the minimum taper and 40 degree shoulder of the Ackley design are slight increase in velocity but you gain less bolt thrust and case life longevity. You can expect velocities of.......
....85 grain...3700fps.....120 grain....3250fps........140 grain...2960fps.
 
6.5x55 SWEDE...A cartridge designed over 100 years ago and now going strong. Factory ammo is pretty well down loaded. This cartridge really needs to be handloaded and used in modern day actions of suitable strength.
.....85grain...3650fps.....120 grain......3120fps......140 grain....2950fps.
 
6.5x55 BJAI (Bob Jourdan Ackley Improved). Bob Jourdan, a scribe of Precision Shooting Magazine, developed this Ackley version about 1992 as P O Ackley never did an improved version of the Swede. All the Ackley Improved virtues apply here also.
...85 grain...3745fps.....120 grain.......3275fps........140 grain....3020fps.
 
6.5x57 MAUSER - Since the brass for this cartridge is hard to get here in the states, you will find most rifles are set up for the 6.5x257 as 257 Roberts brass is obtainable. As I understand it the 6.5x57 Mauser factory ammo will not chamber in a rifle chambered for the 6.5x257.
....85 grain...3700fps....120 grain.....3215fps......140 grain....2995fps.
 
260 AAR (ALL AROUND RIFLE) - This is the 257 Roberts Ackley Improved necked up to 6.5. This cartridge has probably been around since the late 1940's and was quite popular at one time. You won't go wrong if you choose this old-timer.
....85 grain.....3765fps.....120 grain....3295fps........140 grain....3045fps
 
Oh - and by the way.....These velocities are theoretical from a load program at approximately 54-55,000 CUP and apply to a 24" barrel. More to come...........;)

Here is the final batch of cartridges. All suitable for long actions of the 30-06 length. Of course you will need a magnum bolt face for the .264 WinMag.
 
6.5x06 - I personally use 25-06 brass necked up to 6.5 as that is the quickest/easiest way. My personal rifle was build back in the early 1960's and then I used 270 brass necked down and trimmed to '06 length. Better bullet selection makes it my choice over a 270 or the 25-06. Loves H-4831 or AA3100 powder for all bullet weights.
.....85 grain....3780fps.....120 grain....3249........140 grain.....3040fps.
 
6.5x06 ACKLEY IMPROVED - A slight gain in velocity over the 6.5x06 with the usual Ackley design attributes.
....85 grain.....3816fps......120 grain...3300fps......140 grain...3120fps.
 
264 WINCHESTER MAGNUM - necked down .338 WinMag. First introduced in 1958 or 59 in the Winchester Model 70 Westerner w/26" stainless steel barrel. Advertised velocities were a little inflated and received some bad press early on. A little 'twitchy' finding good accurate loads with the powders available back then. My experience with this cartridge was not good and I have held a bias until recently. New slower powders and MUCH better bullet selection has re-invigorated this ol' blaster back to renewed interest and acceptance.
klallen--your personal observations on this one will be appreciated. Still burns too much powder to suit me.........but that doesn't diminish its ability to push everything faster.
....85 grain....3991fps.....120 grain.....3460fps.......140 grain....3265fps.
 
6.5/284 - This cartridge is currently the favorite for the High Power Long Range competitors and in the hands of shooters like Michelle Gallagher perfect scores with high -X- counts at 1,000 yards are attainable. A shooter/hunter friendly cartridge.
....85 grain.....3870fps........120 grain....3270fps......140 grain....3055fps.
 
.256 NEWTON....The grand-daddy of all the 6.5 caliber high intensity cartridges. Developed by Charles Newton around 1915...thats right..1915. Velocities achievable with todays modern powders do exceed what the original Newton was capable. Brass can be made from '06 cases as I understand it but it takes forming dies along with custom made loading dies. The particular cartridge pictured is at least 70 years old as commercial ammo ceased in 1935.
.....85 grain....3795fps......120 grain.....3260fps.......140 grain.....3005fps.
 
That pretty well covers it, friends & neighbors. Hope you found all of this informative.
I certainly enjoyed the research and acquiring some new cartridges for the collection.
 
Ol' John (with tired fingers and a pain between my shoulders from hunching in front of the PC.)
 
:D :D :D ;) ;) :cool: :cool: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Boy, that one in the middle sure is a perty looking creature.  ;o)

You just love anything with a belt, Klallen..... :rolleyes:
But seriously, that was an excellent set of posts and pics 'Ol John, so much so that I compiled you pics and words onto a word file so I could look at it again easily.
Unfortunately I could only credit it to 'Ol John on www.thehunterslife.com (http://www.thehunterslife.com) but if you p-message your full name, John, I'll credit it properly as I can see a point in the future when friends may well ask me what the hell I'm on about when I talk about some obscure but excellent 6.5 cartridge.
After 6 years at uni and life as a high school teacher few things are more distasteful to me than plagiarism. :frown
Thanks once again for your efforts.

Yeoman's work there John. (Where's that applause emoticon when you need it?)
 
The BJAI does look interesting, but until you get to the Win Mag they all look pretty good to me. Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, (but I will anyway :) ), how about some velocity data for Grendel and BR with an 85 grain bullet. Also, do you know of any bullets for the 6.5 between 85 and 100 grains?
 
Paul

Quote from: gitanoYeoman's work there John. (Where's that applause emoticon when you need it?)
 
The BJAI does look interesting, but until you get to the Win Mag they all look pretty good to me. Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, (but I will anyway :) ), how about some velocity data for Grendel and BR with an 85 grain bullet. Also, do you know of any bullets for the 6.5 between 85 and 100 grains?
 
Paul

Thanks amigo.....it ain't work if you are having fun! For info on the Grendel, go to www.6.5grendel.com/forum (http://www.6.5grendel.com/forum) . It has slightly less case capacity than the 6.5 BR so velocities should be pretty close. I will go and check out LFAD for the 85 grain bullet but based on my only load checked for the 6.5 BR using the 100gr bullet, 2900fps from a 22" barrel. Possibly 3100fps or there-abouts! Bullets available between 85 to 100 would be the Speer 90gr HP-TNT and the Nosler 95gr VMAX. I will play with the load program later today and get back to ya!
 
Ol' John...;) :rolleyes: :cool:

after reading each and every post in this thread....no... the 6.5 is not the perfect caliber. The 6.5x'06 seems to get in the top 10. Regards, Rick.:D

Quote from: kombi1976You just love anything with a belt, Klallen

Not true, KOMBI1976. 8 of 11 (soon to be 12) cartridges that I own lack a belt of any kind. Really, I've no attaction to a belted case. The attraction's for performance. In this group of 6.5's that John has taken the time to put together with great pics and educational descriptions, there's a performance leader and then the others in the middle of the pack. Now, I'm not saying the middle of the pack cartridges aren't quality cartridges; they just aren't me and they aren't the one that I've owned and hunted with over the past couple years. That "one" would indeed be the 6.5 cartridge sporting the sexy belt ;o) . Later. >> klallen

Quote from: klallenThe attraction's for performance. In this group of 6.5's that John has taken the time to put together with great pics and educational descriptions, there's a performance leader and then the others in the middle of the pack. Now, I'm not saying the middle of the pack cartridges aren't quality cartridges; they just aren't me and they aren't the one that I've owned and hunted with over the past couple years.

That kinda was my point.
The way I judge performance is by taking the MV, ME & actual hitting power and putting them up against the recoil, muzzle flash and powder capacity.
At the end of the day accuracy is as good as the rifle and the shooter so in some ways it's moot point.
But to get back to my argument, I think the performance leaders in any cal are those that with the least discomfort to the shooter & the most efficient use of powder still fling a decent sized bullet with good hitting power to dispatch a wide range of game.
If your preference is for long shots, as everyone knows your's is, Klallen, then the rules of performance change a little.
But, much like comparing cars by their power to weight ratio instead of the pure cubic inches, there is a lot to be said by efficent use of powder rather than large use of powder, however effective it may be.
O.k., got that off my chest.
But yeah, I bet the Win Mag is fun to fire. :D

Quote from: gitanoYeoman's work there John. (Where's that applause emoticon when you need it?)
 
The BJAI does look interesting, but until you get to the Win Mag they all look pretty good to me. Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth, (but I will anyway :) ), how about some velocity data for Grendel and BR with an 85 grain bullet. Also, do you know of any bullets for the 6.5 between 85 and 100 grains?
 
Paul

Gitano,
 
GS Custom make a 95gr HV.  I have purchased a packet and it is on my list of things to try in my 6.5-06.  Sigh, so many things I want to do, so little time.
 
C

Evening KOMBI1976  >>  You're more then welcome to quantify performance in any manor you need to justify your cartridge purchases.  We all do that.  Me personally, I tend to keep things real simple.  Being of a ballistic mindset, regardless of varmint or big game hunting, I ask only two questions when considering a cartridge     ...     ballistically, what does it have to offer me and can it do this accurately.  That's it.  Real simple.  If I were to force myself to adopt a mindset where cartridge efficiency had hightened importance, my be-all, end-all desire would be to get the most ballistic performance I could muster out of the least amount of powder burned.  Sounds peachy, on the surface, but not acceptable.  I will not argue that this is certainly one way of viewing things and respect those that think along these lines, but for me, it just doesn't make sense.  If my goal be optimum ballistic performance, why have concessions that only limit my ability to achieve the goal.  No.  Unacceptable.  I do want the most ballistic performance I can muster; I get there because I don't care how much powder is burned to do it.  I always seem to get involved in interesting conversations when the standard brigade starts chatting about the 7.82 Warbird.  I'll be the first to admit it takes no small amount of powder to get a 180 gr. bullet moving along at over 3500 fps from a 26" barrel.  When they hear exactly how much it takes, the craziness begins.  Recoil.  Efficiency.  Muzzle Blast.  Etc.   Etc.   Etc.  It's all thrown out there.  But in the end, as I've said, things are kept real simple with me.  I've got the flattest shooting .308 on the market, it hits game very hard at all ranges I'm comfortable shooting and I can handle the thing extremely accurately.  As with my Warbird purchase, if you're looking for optimum in any performance category, you don't make excuses not to reach it.  You simply go out and achieve it.  That's what I choose to do.  If folks can get by with less, I sincerely applaude them for doing so.  I don't see any value in hitting the field with less of anything.  I'll take as many advantages stalked in my corner as I can.  Hunting in my neck of the woods tends to be hard enough as it is.  I ain't hobbling myself with efficiency.  Chat with ya later.  >>  klallen
 
ps     ...     understand, these comments are in direct relation to the wide open areas that I most often hunt and the cartridges designed best for these areas.  I make no comment on what those who don't see shots over 200 yds. would deem important.

Well said Kombi.

Paul

Paul,
 
In reply to your request about velocities for the 85 grain bullet.....Well, I am a little disappointed with the powder data base in the LFAD program. But I will give you the results that I obtained.
 
85gr Sierra HP....65degree temp....36.9grs - 3031....3178fps.....22" barrel. Pretty good but...
 
I think a little faster burning powder might bring those velocities up a bit.....however 3178 in a 22" barrel is not bad for the "little feller"........The Grendel would probably be pretty close in all respects.
 
klallen & kombi1976..........Fellers...you are both right in your respective views. Kombi..you and I are in definite agreement on how we choose what we want to hunt with and it is based on where we hunt and what we hunt. The vast majority of my shots are 200 yards or less...usually much less...more like 75 or 80. The various bullet manufacturers that I have had the occasion to read say their bullets will expand as advertised down to about 1600fps. My choice for the best caliber/cartridge where I hunt would be the 260 Rem, 6.5x55 Swede or the 6.5x257 Roberts. These cartridges will do the job to 300yards or so efficiently, mild recoil and less expense over all than the 6.5/06 or any of the Ackley versions. Bear in mind that my "personal" recommendation for any of the Ackley versions is 100 rounds per year to be cost effective. I really don't know the terrain you hunt so my situation may be quite different than yours. We need to share descriptions of the terrain we hunt and see if they have simularities.
 
As to klallen.....well I have come 180 degrees since I first read his posts on this forum and other forums. What changed my opinion was the opportunity to watch a hunting program where they were after mule deer in eastern Montana. If I had false teeth, I would have dropped them right then and there. Sage brush up to about your knee was the largest plant I saw. The astronauts walking on the moon would have felt right at home. I understand now how & why klallen chooses the "high end" of cartridge ballistics for where he spends most of his time hunting. From what I have been able to discern he has also taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to make clean humane kills at long range. If I manage to make my 2006 trip to Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming & Montana you can be assured I will look up klallen. I will be close to 64 years of age by then and getting a bit "long in the tooth" but I am not too old to learn a few new tricks. I sincerely hope that we can share some quality shootin' time and I can come back to Texas a whole lot smarter than when I left. Good Lord willin' and the creeks don't rise! Thats what this feller is a
hopin'!!!!
 
Ol' John
 
PS..kombi...little package in the mail to ya, neighbor.  Thank you for the nice e-mail and the pics........wish I could join ya in huntin' them 'roo's.  If I win the lottery you can expect an -e- as to when and where!  Your thoughts were greatly appreciated.  Best regards, OHIH.

Well, I should hope I'm not hobbling myself with efficiency either.
After all, if it doesn't do the job it isn't efficient.
But, yeah, I understand your philosophy.
You've poured a lot of time, effort and money into being able to hunt at long ranges and if your cartridge doesn't enable you to fulfil those aims, by my definition it's also inefficient, so long as you are satisfied with the way it operates and are comfortable with it's recoil.
Who am I to criticize your choices when you have such a extensive success rate?
I guess efficiency adds up to what each of us decides is permissable....in other words it's subjective.
So next time you line up on an elk at 300yds with th Warbird just remember I'd be standing behind you if I could smiling as you took it down, half because it was your shoulder taking the wallop, but mostly because I like to see fine shooting.
To give you a little insight into why my approach is different, most of my targets are usually 200yds at the most, partly because I hunt on farmland with other properties encroaching on either side, but also because I have far less experience and only take a shot I'm pretty convinced is possible for this bumbling halfwit to hit.
Don't get me wrong, I'm getting better but I think Jack O'Connor & definitely Elmer Keith would laugh long and hard at the amount of concentration I invest in each shot.
I think I've got extra wrinkles from the faces I pull. :p

I agree about the powders John, and 3200 fps is probably a not a bad guess for a reasonable max considering a 22" barrel.
 
I'd have to play around a bit with bullets before I could choose one primary bullet for a 6.5 BR. Generally, I prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets in "small" calibers, but the 6.5 is a little "big" to be calling it "small". Hence "generalizing" makes me a little uncomfortable. At the moment, with only ancillary 6.5 experience, I'd say the 95 grain V-Max would be at the top of my list. However, a 100 grain Partition is something I'd look real hard at if it was available. I'd have to build one of my little "sweet-spot" graphs and see what that revealed. I think I'll do that and post the graph. Maybe that'll add constructively to what you've presented here. In order to do that for the 6.5 BR, I'll need some more LFAD data from you. I'll PM you.
 
Paul

Paul,

In the 6.5 caliber Nosler Partitions can be had in 3 weights - 100gr, 125gr, 140gr!
 
Ol' John

Yeah I saw that when I looked in their manual. I would definitely look at the 100 grain Partition and the 95 V-Max. I'm still working on the "sweetspot" graph.
 
Paul

Quote from: sakorickafter reading each and every post in this thread....no... the 6.5 is not the perfect caliber. The 6.5x'06 seems to get in the top 10. Regards, Rick.:D

SR,
 
Well neighbor, lets hear your 'whys' and 'where fores'? Here at THL we request discussion among our members.
 
Ol' John..:cool:

Here's the promised "sweetspot" graph. I generated graphs for the Swede, 260, 6.5-06, 6.5-284, 6.5 Rem Mag, and the 264 Win Mag. I chose the one from the 260 at 300 yds because they were all basically the same in shape. If you would like to see one of the others, just speak up. Each can be had for 100, 200 or 300 yds.
 
This exercise really surprised me. I've looked at a lot of these "sweetspot" graphs and this is the first caliber whose sweetspot didn't change significantly with cartridge. Not only is the 140 just about centered for all cases, it's also the best performer by quite a bit. In other calibers, the sweetspot will move left (to lighter bullets) with smaller cases. The bigger cases getting better performance out of the heavier bullets. In the 6.5 (.264"), regardless of case, the theoretical "best" performing (highest KE at a given range) bullet weight remains between 130 and 135 grains from the Swede to the 264 WM. Amazing - at least to me.
 
Paul

Now that really is an interesting graph.  If you say it is also similar for the other 6.5's then it seems that the 140gr Nosler Partitions that I shoot in my 6.5-06 happens to be a good choice.  I'm still experimenting but I seem to be able to launch them at around 3000ft/s + from my 26"bbl.
 
I asume you'r basing this graph on published BC's and published velocities available in each calibre for each bullet?  So the "variance"between the 4 100gr bullets is due solely to a difference in BC?  Is that correct?
 
Regards.
 
C

Quote from: CAfricaNow that really is an interesting graph. If you say it is also similar for the other 6.5's then it seems that the 140gr Nosler Partitions that I shoot in my 6.5-06 happens to be a good choice. C, after creating all these graphs, I think I'd go with Nosler's 125 Partition. Its performance is "close enough" to the 140s that I'd opt for the reduced recoil of the 125. This only because it's a Partition. I'm still experimenting but I seem to be able to launch them at around 3000ft/s + from my 26"bbl.
 
I asume you'r basing this graph on published BC's and published velocities available in each calibre for each bullet? So the "variance"between the 4 100gr bullets is due solely to a difference in BC? Is that correct? Absolutely. Most of the velocities came from P.O. Ackley, or Richard Lee. The BCs came from the manufacturer ofhte bullet. I set all bullets of the same weight to the same muzzle velocity. That is of course not technically correct, but I'm sure the differences are insignificant with respect to this exercise.
 
Regards.
 
Looks like I shoulda made these graphs before I bought all those "light" bullets. :o Actually, I did get some 129s. But truly, I like the idea of the 125 Partiton.
 
C

Paul plus 5
 
I've added a graph of the 6.5-06 at 300 yds for your perusal. Note the performance of the 125 relative to the 140s. In this analysis the 140s had a MV of 2939 fps (896 m/s), and the 125's was 3114 f/s (949 m/s).

Paul,
 
As I understand your graph, a bullet selection of anything from 120 to 140 grains gives the max delivered energy to the game hunted at 300 yards.  Am I reading this correctly?  Based on my memory(oops!), the 120's like the Nosler BT would more than likely give the flatest trajectory to 300 but not by a whole lot as compared to the 140.  So for antelope, whitetail and mule deer or perhaps Bighorn sheep or Mountain goat, the 120 Nosler BT, 120 Sierra Gameking and the 125 Nosler Partition would be the bullets of choice to do the job required.  Given an accuracy maximum of 1.5" at 100 and 4.5" at 300 yards.  For elk or caribou, perhaps a selection of the 140grain bullets available would be the better choice.  I would think that the Nosler 140gr Partition would be the bullet of choice for moose.
 
What say you?
 
Ol' John..:confused:

Quote from: HondoJohn6508Paul,
 
As I understand your graph, a bullet selection of anything from 120 to 140 grains gives the max delivered energy to the game hunted at 300 yards. Am I reading this correctly? Absolutely correct John. Based on my memory(oops!), the 120's like the Nosler BT would more than likely give the flatest trajectory to 300 but not by a whole lot as compared to the 140. Here are the BCs for the respecive bullets.
120 BallisticTip - .458
120 Spitzer - .368
120 BTHP - .403
125 Partition - .449
140 Partition - .490
140 BTSP - .490
140 BTHP - .526
140 A-MAx - .550
140 SST - .520
140 Spitzer - .465
 
As you can see, the 140s 'hold their own' with BCs. But I would agree with your assessment below, except that I'd probaly choose a BallisticTip 140 for Moose. My experience with Partitions is that they penetrate very well, but they blow back to the partition, and have an expanded diameter of just slightly larger than nominal - only .264" in this case. I wouldn't be worrying about penetration if I could deliver 2000+ ft-lbs of energy with a Ballistic Tip. I'd rather have the bigger hole.
 
So for antelope, whitetail and mule deer or perhaps Bighorn sheep or Mountain goat, the 120 Nosler BT, 120 Sierra Gameking and the 125 Nosler Partition would be the bullets of choice to do the job required. Given an accuracy maximum of 1.5" at 100 and 4.5" at 300 yards. For elk or caribou, perhaps a selection of the 140grain bullets available would be the better choice. I would think that the Nosler 140gr Partition would be the bullet of choice for moose.
 
What say you?
 
Ol' John..:confused:

Paul plus 5

Gitano,
 
Thanks for that graph.
 
For flatter trajectory and small targets, I am experimenting with the 110gr GS Custom HV. Because of the copper construction it is as big as a 125gr bullet (and has a corresponding high BC of 0,49).  I expect to launch these at about 3400ft/s.  I will give the lighter Noslers some thought but when I am shooting at bigger animals (especially at long range where my placement may be suspect), I would prefer a strong heavy bullet with penetration capability rather than high energy impact and would therefore rather stick with the 140 partition.
 
But then you know we differ on this subject.
 
Thanks again.
 
C

CAfrica,
 
I think if the GS bullets were readily available, I would use them instead of Partitions whenever a partition-type bullet was called for.
 
Let's revisit the issue of 'penetration' again. Not to change anybody's mind about what bullet they should use, but rather to flesh the subject out a bit more keeping in mind some specific initial constraints.
 
We are considering bullets of a single caliber, 6.5 mm, and the exact same design, GS's Monolithics. Given these constraints, I would submit that the bullet that arrives with the most momentum will be the bullet that penetrates the farthest. As you well know, the formula for kinetic energy is half the mass times the velocity squared, and for momentum, it's simply the mass times the velocity. Therefore, without having to calculate the actual value for momentum, I know that the one with the highest KE also has the highest momentum. Since the bullets are of the exact same design, we can assume that they will have "exactly" the same terminal response. Therefore, the one with the greatest momentum should travel the farthest before the target medium stops it. If this is not true, one of two things are: 1) They DID NOT perform similarly in similar media, or 2) the laws of physics as we know them need to be revised. Therefore, if I was considering "penetration" as an important selection criterion, and I was selecting among bullets of identical design, I'd select the bullet that delivered the most energy to the target at the ranges I expected to shoot, and the weight, as a selector, would be immaterial. While the "sweetest" weight might very well be the 140, I wouldn't select the 140 until I had checked its momentum/delivered energy against bullets of other weights, muzzle velocity, and ballistic coefficient.
 
To that end, you have access to the weights, BCs and expected MVs of lots of GS bullets. If you'll send those along for the 6.5 mm and MVs for whatever cartridge you'd like to compare, I'll make up a GS sweetspot graph. For my two-cents-worth, I'd like to see velocities for one of the 'smaller" 6.5s like the Swede or 260, and a larger one like the '06 or WM.
 
Of course this is mostly a 'tempest in a teapot' as it appears that any bullet from about 120 to 150 is gonna be an excellent terminal performer. But there's nothing wrong with a little arithmetic 'exercise' between continents.
 
Paul
 
Here's an analysis I call Nominal Figure of Merit. It compares a rifle/cartidge/bullet against a "standard" and give a relative figure of merit. The "standard"is a 8.5 pound (3.9 kg) .30-06 firing a 150 grain spitzer that is capable of placing 5 shots within a circle whose area is 1.43 square inches (9.2 square cm). The variables used to calculate the FOM are; accuracy, mean KE, "flatness", recoil and "lethality". They are in order of 'importance'. In other words, as you go down the list of variables, the weight of each coefficient is less. I rank accuracy more important than mean KE, and so on. The FOM for the "standard" is 1000.
 
I used your 125 GS with the .49 BC and a MV of 3400. I assumed a rifle weigh of 4.32 kg, an elevation of 100 ft (about 30 m), an ambient temperature of 50*F (10*C), and accuracy of 9.2 square cm, and a charge of 50 grains of powder. The zero and max ranges can be set at any values you like, but for the FOM calculation they 'float' so that the maximum height above the line of sight is 3" and the minmum below the LOS is 3".
 
Paul

Gitano,
 
I agree with most of what you said.  Now if you take the "sweetspot graph" and redo it using Momentum rather than Energy we may get some interesting results. As you say, energy uses the square of the velocity so therefore it is biased towards the lighter faster moving bullets.  I suspect that if you redo that graph using momentum, you will find that the heavier bullets will become the more likely "sweetspot" bullets.
 
Secondly, another factor in the equation is the "if the bullets behave the same" part.  That is the part where I prefer partitions and specifically the monolithics from a "penetration" point of view.  Less strong bullets loose a lot of weight at the point of impact, leaving a light remaining projectile that does not have sufficient momentum to (say) break a large shoulder bone. The monometal bullets ratain about 85 to 90% weight even at high velocity impacts and the partitions 75 to 80%.  A non partition, like a polymer tipped bullet, may loose as a lot more and on a close shot, where impact velocity is still high, it may fail to perform if it has to traverse much tissue to reach the vitals.
 
The 110gr GS is their heaviest bullet for this calibre (you used 125gr, maybe you picked up on where I said it has the same size as a 125gr lead core bullet).  Their other one is a 95gr.  I have a packet but have not tried it yet. I suspect that I might be able to get another 200ft/s or so out of it but that the lower BC will cause these two bullet to be about the same from the "sweetspot" point of view at 300yard ranges.
 
Thanks for the grpahs and information.
 
Regards.
 
 
C

Quote from: CafricaSecondly, another factor in the equation is the "if the bullets behave the same" part. That is the part where I prefer partitions and specifically the monolithics from a "penetration" point of view. Less strong bullets loose a lot of weight at the point of impact, leaving a light remaining projectile that does not have sufficient momentum to (say) break a large shoulder bone. I've shot very tough critters - mountain goat - with a 150 grain Ballistic Tip out of a .308 Win at about 125 yards, it broke both shoulder blades and the backbone and was found on the far side under the skin. The monometal bullets ratain about 85 to 90% weight even at high velocity impacts and the partitions 75 to 80%. A non partition, like a polymer tipped bullet, may loose as a lot more and on a close shot, where impact velocity is still high, it may fail to perform if it has to traverse much tissue to reach the vitals.

You really need to use these bullets TYPES before you judge them. It's almost rediculous to believe that a 150 grain bullet doing 2500 fps at the point of impact is going to fail to reach the vitals unless you're shooting an Eland in the rear hoping to get to the heart. I've been using HPs (to say nothing of Ballisitic Tips) going VERY fast for almost 30 years. In what is likely approaching a hundred head of big game in that time, I've NEVER had a single one fail to "reach the vitals" OR not perform BETTER than most "solid tipped" bullets.
 
That said, below you will find the momentum sweetspot graphs for the 6.5-06. Look particularly at the graph with 100, 200 , and 300 curves. The heavy-weights are "dying" faster the farther out you go. In fact, considering only momentum, they are "dying" faster than they do when considering enegy delivered. Also note how the sweetspot shifts the LEFT as range INCREASES. At 100 yds, the sweetspot looks like it might be around 165 or 180, at 200 its about 150, and at 300 its about 147-ish. If you want momentum, go lighter or get a very high ballistic coefficient. If you wanna poke holes, use a heavy, monometal or partition-type bullet. If you wanna deliver energy AND reach hte vital with a reasonable shot, use a "sweetspot" weighted bullet.
 
If you return to the previous FOM graph you will see I have corrected the weight to 110.
 
Paul

OOPS - It still says 125 in the header, but you'll notice that the variable "weight" equals 110. It's a major pain to get these graphs on THL or I'd go back and change it again. Sorry.
 
Paul

Hi Gitano,
 
Thanks for all the trouble.  I cannot fault your logic on the ballistic tips.  I just had a bad experience once with a conventional construction bullet (not ballistic tip construction, standard soft point flat base),  and since that day I have always used premium construction bullets for all my high velocity loads.
 
I concede that my experience was probably due to a badly manufactured bullet (the particular manufacturer got a lot of bad press at the time with similar incidents).   The point is that I am very happy with the bullets I currently use and see no need to change.
 
I found the new graphs very interesting and about what I expected.  In the energy graphs, the sweetspot was around to 125gr mark.  With the momentum graphs, the sweetspot is from 147gr upwards.   My selection of the 140gr partition rather than the 125gr puts me nearer the spot (although the difference is small and dead is dead isn't it?).
 
Although the 110gr is substantially off the ideal spot, my idea is to use it on small targets (springbok weight less than 50lb) and the selection of this bullet is because of the flat trajectory (springbok are plains game and long shots are the norm).
 
 
Thanks again for all the trouble with the graphs.
 
Regards.
 
 
C

Quote from: CAfricaHi Gitano,
 
Thanks for all the trouble. As Ol' John sez, "If it's fun, it ain't work."
 
The point is that I am very happy with the bullets I currently use and see no need to change. And there my friend, is the whole Truth.
 
I found the new graphs very interesting and about what I expected. In the energy graphs, the sweetspot was around to 125gr mark. I think it's closer to 140 than 120. With the momentum graphs, the sweetspot is from 147gr upwards. My selection of the 140gr partition rather than the 125gr puts me nearer the spot (although the difference is small and dead is dead isn't it?). You betcha.
 
Although the 110gr is substantially off the ideal spot, my idea is to use it on small targets (springbok weight less than 50lb) and the selection of this bullet is because of the flat trajectory (springbok are plains game and long shots are the norm). I wouldn't hesitate to use the 110 on game substatially larger, but  then that's where this all started, isn't it. :D
 
 
Thanks again for all the trouble with the graphs. No sweat, GI.
 
Regards.
 
 
C

Paul plus 5.

Friends & neighbors,

My thanks to all that have posted their thoughts & observations on the various 6.5 cartridges and the bullets that go into them.  I especially want to thank Gitano for the graphs and the analysis that went with them.  Paul, you are a #1 number cruncher!  Whether or not I have convinced anyone to my way of thinking about the 6.5 caliber really doesn't matter.  I do hope that the discussions have been informative for all who have participated.  A good friend of mine pretty well summed up the thought of "PERFECT" and I will pass it on for your consideration..........................
 
"In the world we live in .. there is no such thing as perfection!
If we seek perfection we will be, by definition, a failure.
However, excellence in any given endeavor is achieveable!
Therefore, let us strive for EXCELLENCE."

So is the 6.5 the "perfect" caliber?  Nope........but it is a caliber that reaches a very high degree of EXCELLENCE for just about everything except the bears.  From pasture poodles to moose there is a cartridge and a bullet that will do the job and do it exceedingly well.
Match the cartridge and the action, the proper barrel and stock and you will have a winner.
 
Keep your bores clean and yore powder dry and get out and shoot somethin'.
 
Ol' John

graph's and charts are fine but how does it work in the field. i'm lucky, i own over 40 deer rifles and i have used all, some with good results some with less than good results, all with good hits. i've got the big belted one's and the short one's.

i find myself over hte years continuing to go back to the 6.5's for there always stellar performance. i've killed elk with eveything from 25.06 to .358 norma and the 6.5's have killed just as good if not better than them all. i have 2 6.5x55's and 3 6.5.06's. the 6.5x55 with the proper bullet and placement has killed elk at the far side 250 yards without any problems. i built my first 6.5.06 on a 1909 mauser, i now shoot 129 hornaday's in it. it seems to have the ballistics of the 120's and the ability to hold together and penatrate like the 140's. i use a 6.5.06 to shoot f-class and it has won several matches for me. i shoot a serria 140 gr mk and my best group at 300 yrds was a .721 for 5 rnds, i don't do that all the time, dang it. but it'll shoot better than i can, i concidered the 6.5.06 ai but i have never been impressed with ai rounds.  if i need more than a standard cartirage will provide i get one with a belt on it. i guess it's time to thin out my rifle collection as i'm getting older and wiser, well older anyway.  the last three years of hunting, i have used a 6.5x55 on whitetails and 2 pigs, a 7x57 on whitetails and one very noisey rooster, a 6.5.06 on antalope and mule deer, a 30.06 on elk and mule deer, and last but not least a.358 norma mag. on a costal brown bear. for my average hunting i more than likley will be found in the woods with a 6.5 mm round every time.  when it come to the deer woods bigger is not always better. my 0.02 spent rather well.

neolithic hunter,
 
Welcome aboard, neighbor. Anyone who hails from Cut&Shoot, Texas has got to be a pretty good feller. Appreciate your contributing your experience with the 6.5 bore to the thread. I noticed your remarks about shooting "F" class competition and wondered where-a-bouts it is that you are competing? Been thinking about doing a bit of that myself. What kind of a rifle set-up do you have? I have a Remington 78 action thats not doing anything at the present time so I might decide to develop an "F" class based on that action. Would appreciate any info you might want to pass on to us beginners! Again....Welcome!
 
Ol' John...:D

Ok, so I'm jumping in here a little late but since I just got my first 6.5, well.........  Anyway, is it the perfect caliber, no. But it's pretty good. It's great for deer and hog sized game. It's smaller than I personally would like to use for game such as elk and moose but it would deffinately work in a pinch. And deffinately more than is necessary for coyotes and smaller. I don't really see the advantage that it has over the .257 on deer sized game as both have plenty of power to kill a deer as far or farther than I will willingly shoot at a deer sized animal so any added power is purely academic. I have only begun to play with mine and hope to take a coyote or two in late August or early September and maby a deer next year.

Patience H'bug!  Patience!

I agree with your assesment on deer/antelope sized game.  Not a whole lot of difference between .25 and .26 caliber but..............!
 
Take my advice on bullet selection and use light for caliber bullets for deer/antelope........such as Sierra 100gr HP's or Nosler 100gr Ballistic Tips.  Out to 250-300 yards they do wonderfly.  Rapid expansion and lots of bullet shock!  I think the 125 or 140 Nosler Partitions would work extremely well on elk.
 
For 'yotes I think I would use the 95gr Hornaday VMAX or the Sierra 85gr HP's would be just the ticket.  Please remember also the 6.5 Swede as a general rule loves slower powders.....H-4350, RL 19 or there-abouts should be the ticket.
 
I am reasonably sure you will be surprised with the results.
 
Ol' John...;)

Lotsa, lotsa moose killed every year in Scandinavia with 6.5s. LOTS of them!
 
Paul

Quote from: HunterbugOk, so I'm jumping in here a little late but since I just got my first 6.5, well......... Anyway, is it the perfect caliber, no. But it's pretty good. It's great for deer and hog sized game. It's smaller than I personally would like to use for game such as elk and moose but it would deffinately work in a pinch. And deffinately more than is necessary for coyotes and smaller. I don't really see the advantage that it has over the .257 on deer sized game as both have plenty of power to kill a deer as far or farther than I will willingly shoot at a deer sized animal so any added power is purely academic. I have only begun to play with mine and hope to take a coyote or two in late August or early September and maby a deer next year.

hunterbug, i've been using the 6.5 mm for quite a number of years. as stated in the other post, the in norway and sweden it take the place of our 30.06. it is used extensivly on game the size of our easteren moose, over there they call them elk, but what do you expect from a european anyway. mean while i have found that the 100 grain bullet in 6.5mm to be a little light for deer sized game. i know of people who swear by them but i have not had the best of results with them. i personally prefer the 120 class bullet for deer sized animals it has a good sectional density and is carrying enough weight to do a good job even at extended ranges, say 300 to 400 yrds. i shoot a 130 gr boattail bullet that i make myself , this is a standard lead and gilding metal bullet with a bonded core, not a boutique bullet.  it has more retained energy than the 120's but not the weight of the 140's. if you are shooting a 6.5x55 class round then i would suggest using the 120's at about 2800 fps for deer, hogs and such. most of the factory 140's have a jacket that is designed for elk sized critters, but will work well on deer if the rang is not to far, say out to 250 yards or so. if your shooting a 6.5x06 class round then you are at about 150 fps less than a 264 win mag and can extend your ranges accordingly. if your shooting a 264 win mag class round then i would by all means us the 140's exclusivly due to the veloicity problems, and bullet construction issues.
 i also have to agree on the powder selections but i would also add r-22, hodgans  sc-4831 to the list. the 6.5mm bore really likes the same powders as the 25.06 would like. well thats my 0.02 worth of brain power.:)

Quote from: gitanoLotsa, lotsa moose killed every year in Scandinavia with 6.5s. LOTS of them!
 
Paul

Lots of people ride motorcycles without helmets, don't wear seat belts, and smoke a pack a day; that doesn't make it a good idea. ;) I agree that the 6.5 will kill both elk and moose but I have too many more suitable calibers to take my 6.5X55 for an elk or moose hunt as my primary weapon.
 
I am going to Sportsman's Warehouse tomorow to get dies and some bullets so I'll see what I come home with. I have heard that the 6.5X55 likes the slower powders so I'll look into loads with both RL-19 and RL-22 which I have at home and a 120 to 130gr bullet for deer and maby a 95gr V-Max or 100gr BT for coyotes. I'll look into the data more when I get home.

QuoteI agree that the 6.5 will kill both elk and moose but I have too many more suitable calibers to take my 6.5X55 for an elk or moose hunt as my primary weapon.

The best reason.
 
Paul

Quote from: HunterbugI agree that the 6.5 will kill both elk and moose but I have too many more suitable calibers to take my 6.5X55 for an elk or moose hunt as my primary weapon.

well gentalmen i used to be a hunting guide in new mexico, colorado, and wyoming. i would rater see a hundred men with 6.5x55's in camp than the regular type. the regular type is a man carrieing the latest extremly expensive loudenshootnthunderboomer, can't hit the paper at 100 yrds because he's afraid of his new superduperelkthumperkillingmachine gun. it kicks too hard, and makes to much noise, for him to sight it in, so he pays someone at the range to sight it in for him. when he gets to camp he doesn't whant to check his zero on paper and swears that the rifle hasen't been bumped or anything so it dosen't need to be checked. when or if you can finally get the fool to shoot it at paper, he the hunter whose paid over $10,000.00 for the hunt of his life couldn't hit an elk with a 2x4 if it was standing next to him. i have had the oportunity to kill a good number of elk in my time, i've personally use with great success the following 25.06, 6,5x55, 6.5.06, 270, 7x57, 280, 7 mm mag's, 308 win, 30.06, 300 win mag, 8x57, 8mmx338, 8 mm remington mag, 338 win mag, 358 norma mag, and 45/70.  those are the calibers i can think of at the moment. i've had to use most of them to dispatch animanls that have been shot by men, shooting weapons more suited to elk sized animals. i have yet to have to kill an animal for a client that brings a 6.5x55 up to a 30.06 to camp. the men who bring these rifles can hit what there aiming at because they arn't afraid of there weapon. this is from personal experience of the men i,ve hunted with in the hills and mountains of the west. pick what weapon you wish but if you can't hit a 10" circle with consistency at 200 to 200 + yrds, you'll be chasing wounded animals in the woods most likely at night. lol and have fun;)

Quote from: CAfricaGitano,
 
GS Custom make a 95gr HV. I have purchased a packet and it is on my list of things to try in my 6.5-06. Sigh, so many things I want to do, so little time.
 
C

Finally managed to build up some loads and get out to test.
 
My final loads for my "bullets of choice"  were:
 
110gr GS Custom  3400ft/s
140gr Nosler P      3000ft/s
160gr Claw           2400ft/s (mild load for bush use).
 
I then tested the 95gr as I said I would and managed to reach 3700ft/s without pressure problems.
 
Also shot my first critter with the rifle (using the 110gr).  Black springbok at about 140yards.  I was shooting through some bush and I think I hit something on the way because POI was a bit off.  nevertheless springbok went down and stayed down.  Bullet took out one kidney and didn't damage any meat (biltong is about dry, tried it last night and the wors is great).
 
So far happy with my choice, haven't done any real grouping tests yet (most shooting was done in the field not at the range and without a proper bench, the shooters influence on the groups are too much to make an evaluation).
 
Regards.
 
C

neolithic hunter, I'm not going to argue that point with you because you are correct. But, I have a 30-06, 8X57 and 338 Win Mag all of which I can shoot groups of less than an inch at 100 yards. I feel that while the 6.5X55 will kill an elk I personally would chose one of thoes calibers first.
 
CAfrica, looks good. Do we get any pics of the springbok?

CAfrica,
 
What are the BCs on those three bullets?
 
And, where are the pictures? :)
 
Paul

Gitano,
 
The 110gr GS has a BC of 0.49, which is very good for such a light bullet. I would suspect the Nosler to be about the same (0.45 +?)
I don't know about the 160gr, being a round nose but fairly long I would estimate about 0.3 to 0.35.  Since it is a close range bullet, I am not concerned with the BC.
I posted pics of the bullets before but I'll find them and post again.
 
HB,
 
Sorry, no pics.  It was late evening when we got back to camp and we were in a hurry to get it skinned and into the cool room (still fairly hot here even though it is well into fall).
 
Regards.
 
C

My interest in the BCs, was to work up one of my Figure of Merit calculations. I remember now that you mention it, the GS BC.
 
Have another look at the "Falling Block" thread. I've posted another link that may make more sense regarding E. A. Brown's "philosophy". I disagree with ton's of what he says, (too many leaps of faith), but he explains his justifications clearly.
 
Paul

Watch out the camel is getting his nose under the tent.
 
Just wanted to respond to an obsevation that NEO made and I whole heartedly indorse.
 
Too much gun for too little shooter.
 
Maybe more aptly put this way. There is no such thing as being over gunned for a particular game and pretty difficult to be under gunned. Any weapon in the hands of a hunter that knows and understands it will get the job done. That is the secret. If the one you are carrying scares or abuses you to shoot it, you will not be proficent. The sound / energy / tight group / money spent mean didly if the one holding the gun can not put it on target.

Gitano,

 
Here is that pic of the bullets. FLTR, 95gr GS C, 110gr GSC,  129gr Hornady interlock, 140gr Nosler Partition, 160gr Claw (the claw is a local bullet, it has a bonded core and it is almost as cheap as standard bullets). The bullet on the right is a standard 180gr 30 calibre for comparison.
 
There would be little sense in including the 160gr in the sweetspot table.  My load is a "downloaded" load for achieving a specific velocity for a specific purpose.  I concur with you that much of what appears on that web page I don't agree with but I do have certain beliefs about "slow" bullets which make me continue to use them.
 
Regards
 
C

Thanks for the images, CAfrica.
 
Ya know... I really have no desire to get anybody to change their modus operandus. Most things people choose to do with regard to bullet and cartridge selection are truly neither 'here nor there' in the final analysis. I just get a little 'kinked up' when people tell me thier way is 'best'.
 
We all choose our own 'poisons' for our own, usually well-thought-out, reasons. In the end, I think this issue really boils down to precious little more than an overt preference for either "penetration" or "shock". The truth is, both 'work'.
 
Regards,
Paul

No argument from me on that score.  If it works for you then good and well.
 
As you can see from the ballistics, I have both the fast and the slow. The only difference in my fast bullet is that I use a hollow point monometal bullet.  I do have a packet of 180gr Nosler Ballistic tips that have been standing in my gun cupboard for a couple of years now and at some stage I intend to try them out in my 30-06. Perforce it will not be a high velocity but at standard 06 velocities.
 
I'm sure they will work.  Whether they will change me bullet preference, well who can tell?
 
C

IMHO, the 6,5 X 55 hs two easy upgrades: the Ackley ( 40 degree shoulder) and the 37 Degree variant whose reamer is obtained from Dave Kiff, Pacific Tool .  They are premier people.  The resultant cartride has more powder room, a longer neck and may be easily fireformed and has proved itself accurate at 1,000 yds.
 OVERBORE

For those advocates who think the 6.5 is the ideal size, you are on to something as the US Army is officailly going to 6.8mm rifles as the 5.56mm is requiring two to four hits to stop a terrorist at rifle combat ranges.   As a handloading tip, I use "Quick Load"  which answers almost any powder and bullet question  and it has this interesting chamber pressure note: a friction proofed bullet ( read moly ) hs about 68% of the chamber pressure of an uncoated ( dry ) bullet.   For serious load work-ups this combinned with a tight ( (0.003") neck bushing will give the necessary neck tension. Overbore

:) Just to stir the pot a bit, as you can see by my age, I have been shooting and reloading for at least 50 years and hve become cautious as to what we suggest but here are a few: use Norma Brass, don't use old Mauser rifles, use good recent computer data such as the following: 45.0 gr of H4350 =2,870'/sec and a 0.057" three shot group with a 138gr Lapua Secnar. Not too shabby for a load work up start point. If you must go faster, try 44gr of VV 140 for 3,103'/sec and a 0.172" three shot group with SMK 120gr's. TWist is one big key to accuracy; bullet weight and twist must be matched or it is like a 70 yr old marrying a 21 yr old- looks good on paper but--! For serious hunting, I am a Nosler ballistic tip fan as #1 choice followed by the Barnes products- just preferences; nothing scientific. In the benchrest game Norma brass is #2 with Lapua #1. My son is a big bore fan using a "loudenboomer eargersplitten" shoulder cannon of a 30-378 that loves about 125 gr of powder! Ouch! The 6.5 has the flexibility to download safely for my 10 year old grandson and for him to keep in the same caliber for his hunting life. Cordially, Overbore

Quote from: overbore:) Just to stir the pot a bit, as you can see by my age, I have been shooting and reloading for at least 50 years and hve become cautious as to what we suggest but here are a few: use Norma Brass, don't use old Mauser rifles, Cordially, Overbore

Welcome overbore....nice to have someone around who is older than I am! Don't like Norma brass....in the old days, we called it "butter brass". What exactly do you dislike in regards to old Mausers? Parker Hale, HVA, CZ, Zavodi Crvena Zastava (ZCZ) and the Sweed to name a few, are regarded by many as being among the finest rifles ever built. The mod 98 made in the WWII era are also highly regarded as being rugged, dependable rifles......just wondering?  Regards, Rick.

SAkorick, fist tell me about those wings, please, as I am a long time pilot with my first rating being the B-25.   Since I answered your question in a private  e-mail, I am putting my reasons in open view:  New high pressure loads excede the design metulurgy of the old Mauser actions; however, having said that , for the original loads, the old actions are fine but use an open information source such as //www.hogdonpowder.com to pay attention to the pressures if you do not have modern computer loading program.    If anyone is contemplatig a load that uses common bullets and powders, I will be glad to run them through my programs and post the pressures.    WARNING!!!   Any load combination that is not listed in the databases may be dangerously high in pressure !!!  This is particularly true of the old Mauser actions and temperature changes!!!  :eek:  OVERBORE

Quote from: overboreNew high pressure loads excede the design metulurgy of the old Mauser actions:eek: OVERBORE

Hello overbore. I assume you are referring to the really old pre WW1 Mausers and I agree. I fired some factory 170gr Rem shells in my dad's old 8mm mauser and they cronied at 2200'/sec....hardly a decent 30/30 round. I feel very comfortable with my brother's 6.5x55 sweed and dad's ww2 German as we have been shooting near max loads in them for 40-50 years now.
 
The wings are Master Army Aviator....retired Army here.
Regards, Rick.

Quote from: overboreSAkorick, fist tell me about those wings, please, as I am a long time pilot with my first rating being the B-25. Since I answered your question in a private e-mail, I am putting my reasons in open view: New high pressure loads excede the design metulurgy of the old Mauser actions; however, having said that , for the original loads, the old actions are fine but use an open information source such as www.hogdonpowder.com (http://www.hogdonpowder.com/) to pay attention to the pressures if you do not have modern computer loading program. If anyone is contemplatig a load that uses common bullets and powders, I will be glad to run them through my programs and post the pressures. WARNING!!! Any load combination that is not listed in the databases may be dangerously high in pressure !!! This is particularly true of the old Mauser actions and temperature changes!!! :eek: OVERBORE

This brings up the question of just how hot the loading manuals loads are. Most of them don't say what pressure their 6.5x55 loads are, and leaves us wondering if they are held down to "prudent" 6.5x55 pressure levels, hence can be safely exceeded within reason by shooters using modern bolt actions. For instance, one manual lists 46 gr of IMR-4350, standard primer, 129 gr Hornady bullet as a maximum load. What it doesn't say is whether that is a 50,000 cup load or a 44,000 cup load. If one assumes it is a 44,000 cup load it can probably be safely pushed to 47 or 48 gr and still be within safe pressure levels for a modern action. But if the 46 gr load is already at 50,000, that 48.0 gr load may be heading into the danger zone. I want as much performance as I can get, but I don't want to exceed safe pressure levels. (My vision isn't very good, but these are the only eyes I will ever have, sure don't want to lose them) If you have time, Overbore, I would love to see what your program would say for those loads. Kind of curious to see which pressure level the manual is indicating. Thanks.

Quote from: 2ndtimerThis brings up the question of just how hot the loading manuals loads are. Most of them don't say what pressure their 6.5x55 loads are, and leaves us wondering if they are held down to "prudent" 6.5x55 pressure levels, hence can be safely exceeded within reason by shooters using modern bolt actions. For instance, one manual lists 46 gr of IMR-4350, standard primer, 129 gr Hornady bullet as a maximum load. What it doesn't say is whether that is a 50,000 cup load or a 44,000 cup load..

So, what is a modern bolt action????? I just don't get it....Have you ever seen a sweedish 6.5/55 bolt? My goodness, it has 3 huge locking lugs made of steel that is every bit a good as the stuff they are using now....maybe  better. The germans used the highest grade steel on the planet with 3 locking lugs not counting  the bolt in the mod 98.....looked at a rem 700 bolt lately????  Common sense says these Mauser rifles are up to the task. I have reloading manuals that range from 1965 to now......a constant dumb down. I shot some factory 170gr 8x57mm Rem bullets that chronied at a whopping 2250'/sec. Someone please help  me here.....does everyone have to junk their Mausers......does that mean all the HVA, PH's Bruno's and Zavodi's of the world can't shoot decent loads safely?? IMHO...Ludicrous.  You have a better chance at action failure with a new Tikka or Remington with dumb down factory ammo than a 50 year old Mauser.......the  last rifle I heard of that blew up was a Tikka, 1 year old!! Regards, Rick.

The only "standard" downloaded ammunition for Mauser rifles that I know of is the 8mm loads (8X57).  The reason for this (apparently) is that the original J mausers had the smaller bore (.318) as opposed to the later S (or JS models .323).  USA being what it is with law suits, the manufacturers are natuarally concerned that some dolt will fire an S in an old J rifle and blow it up in his face.  Thus, factory loaded 8X57 loads are loaded very mild. (That explains those low 2000ft/s velocities Sakorick relates).
 
By the way, every "failure" I have ever heard of concerned the bbl, not the action But then I don't keep tabs on these things and maybe someone can enlighten me to the "action" failures that occur in Mauser rifles.
 
Regards.
 
C

2ndtimer,  Hot off the computer  is this data:
 
  I entered the program with this data:
  Hornady 129grsp (sp2620)
  6.5 X55 Sweede
  H-4350 powder;
  charge 46.0 gr
  26" barrel ( optimistic ) ; SUBTRACT ABOUT 26FPS/ SHORTER INCH
 
  PROGRAM SAYS:  "MV= 2,825'/SEC
  CHAMBER PSI IS  48,764 , WARM LOADING
 LOA IS 3.150" FOR LOADING DENSITY OF 91.1%. iT APPEARS WARM BUT SAFE UP TO 75 DEGREES. ALL CAUTIONS APPLY. OVERBORE
 

May I respectfully refer all to the following link:  for all to evaluate for themselves the 10 shot throat errosion  with dangerous pressure rises in a 6.5.. Mauser.  In today's litigous environment, none are immume from law suits and especially the providers of reloading info.  You should see the Quick Load warnings in red and the agreement one must ascribe to before going to data.  CYA is the name of the game. Overbore

Quote from: overbore2ndtimer,  Hot off the computer  is this data:
   
   I entered the program with this data:
   Hornady 129grsp (sp2620)
   6.5 X55 Sweede
   H-4350 powder;
   charge 46.0 gr
   26" barrel ( optimistic ) ; SUBTRACT ABOUT 26FPS/ SHORTER INCH
   
   PROGRAM SAYS:  "MV= 2,825'/SEC
   CHAMBER PSI IS  48,764 , WARM LOADING
  LOA IS 3.150" FOR LOADING DENSITY OF 91.1%. iT APPEARS WARM BUT SAFE UP TO 75 DEGREES. ALL CAUTIONS APPLY. OVERBORE
   

Thanks for the information.  I checked the latest Nosler  Manual and they listed 45.5 gr as maximum with their 125 gr Nosler Partition bullet for 2910 fps out of a Lilja test barrel.  Pretty close to your computer estimate.  I read a post somewhere that mentioned using ones chronograph as a reasonable estimator or pressure levels.  Since velocity and pressure are directly related, if your velocity is way less than the manual shows (like with my Howa), chances are your pressure is also less than what the loads were generating in the test rifle in the manual, accounting of course for different barrel lengths.  Since my Howa is a 22" barrel and factory as opposed to a 23" Lilja test barrel that is probably minimum chamber dimensions vs my sloppy Howa factory barrel, it sounds reasonable to me that my chronograph indicates that my 46 gr load of IMR-4350 is generating less pressure than Nosler's load with their partition since mine only chronographs around 2650.  Figure 100 fps for barrel length and tighter chamber and I am still 160 fps below Nosler's numbers.  So can I cautiously try increasing my load?  Probably, but I am pretty reluctant to "boldly go where no loading manual has gone before".  
 So unless I can set up my own ballistics lab with pressure testing equipment (come on Lotto!), I guess I will be content with the highest published load that gives no excess pressure indications in my rifle.  I still may be able to hit 2700 fps with that Hornady 129, or maybe even 2800 with a Nosler 120 gr Ballistic Tip if I use the right powder ( or rebarrel to a custom short throated chamber with a 24 or 25"  barrel, come on Lottery again)
 Anyway, thanks again for the computer estimate.  I think it is probably pretty accurate, and I am very confident in the Howa's ability to contain even higher pressures than you indicated.  After all, they use the same action and (I think) barrel contour for the .270 Win. 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag, all of which operate at well above 52000 cup or higher.  I have enjoyed the discussion.

Based on past experience, I feel the following 'disclaimer' is called for:
overbore, please do not take this personally, my 'crosshairs' are not on you on this matter. Glad to have you aboard here at THL, and I look forward to your future posts.
 

Quote from: overboreMay I respectfully refer all to the following link: for all to evaluate for themselves the 10 shot throat errosion with dangerous pressure rises in a 6.5.. Mauser. Overbore

I went to the above link and read the entire article including the rebuttal. I found the rebuttal more valid than the article, but I give the author credit for including the rebuttal on his site.
 
I had a difficult time reading any farther than the sixth paragraph in which the author makes the following comment:
 

QuoteThen a "spontaneous disassembly" occurred that destroyed the action but left the barrel undamaged.

Which is absurd. The bbl is threaded INTO the receiver. The BARREL contains the chamber. The receiver envelopes the barrel AND the chamber. If there was a "spontaneous disassembly" (which may be cute wording, but is nonetheless incorrect terminology), due to excessive pressure, the only way the action could be "destroyed" and the barrel left "undamaged", would be if the bolt blew straight out the back of the receiver. The picture at the top of the article clearly shows the receiver's front ring, that part that surrounds the bbl's chamber, is in pieces. This sort of misrepresentation makes the rest of the article "extremely suspect", to put it nicely.
 
If this "solves the mystery" for the author, good for him. As far as I'm concerned, it is simply another in a very, very long list of "I told you sos", and has precisely the same 'value' as all of the other ones.
 
There are just as many "Chicken Littles" on the Net as there are "Anything Goes" goof-balls. They both have credibility 'issues'.
 
To those wondering "What's right?", I respectfully suggest the following:
1) Shoot what you feel comfortable with.
2) Do not go past your "comfort zone" just because someone on the Net says you can.
3) By the same token, do not deny your own eyes, personal experience, and training just because someone on the Net says, "It's dangerous".
4) If you don't have personal experience and training... get some.
 
2ndtimer,

QuoteSo unless I can set up my own ballistics lab with pressure testing equipment (come on Lotto!),

You can have that for less than $500 from Recreational Software Inc. http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ptsupport.htm (http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ptsupport.htm)
 
Finally, hasn't this wandered a bit "far afield" of the original topic?
 
Paul

Trying a different scope before you tinker with the bedding is not a bad idea. In my younger days I bought a very nice little rifle in .22 hornet including scope but was at my wits end trying to get any accuracy from it. I sold it to a friend that took it off my hands for half of what I paid for it.  He took the scope apart and found one end of the horizontal cross wire had come loose. A tiney drop of epoxy and the rifle shot very well for him. I should have kicked myself for that one.!!!Scope mounts can also cause inacurracy if they are not very secure in any rifle with even a mild recoil. I had that problem with a used .357 with 4" barrel. It came with a beautiful leopold 4x hand gun scope. It took about 50 rounds of dissapointing accuracy to realize the scope was moving. I couldn't  budge it by hand but the recoil was too much for the cheap scope mount that came with the gun. A new scope mount that used 3 mounting screws instead of two screws solved the problem.

Gents,

I believe we have pretty well covered the subject and the thread has become quite lengthy.  Since I started this thread, let me thank everyone who has contributed in this discussion...lets end it here.
 
Thanks again folks!  I have certainly enjoyed the discussion.
 
Ol' John...:D ;)