Drilling: G.F. Stormer: Initial Workup

[kombi1976]

Wow, wish I had one of those little suckers to do the heels on my cast bullets for the 450/400.

[gitano]

Well, you guys should 'get after it'. There's only one element not shown in the above pictures: There is a collet that holds the bullet. You can't see it because it's inside the lath "head". Here's a picture of it.


Take your questions about construction to Drinksgin.

Paul

[recoil junky]

1. Are you shooting pure lead bullets? Or just casting to see what they weigh.

2. Are you really going to shoot copper jacketed bullets out of a Damascus barrel? Or is the rifle barrel Damascus) If it's not Damascus and you do shoot jacketed bullets out of it you know that's sacrilegious anyway right.

RJ

[gitano]

1. Are you shooting pure lead bullets? Or just casting to see what they weigh. Shooting them.

2. Are you really going to shoot copper jacketed bullets out of a Damascus barrel? Or is the rifle barrel Damascus) If it's not Damascus and you do shoot jacketed bullets out of it you know that's sacrilegious anyway right.

RJ

The rifle barrel is not Damascus. It is thin though! Less than 0.100" at the muzzle.

Actually, once I figure in all the constraints of shooting this piece, there's not much reason to 'push the envelope' in any of the areas. The first jacketed bullet I would use the Hawk 300-grainer because it's jacket is "dead soft" copper and the core pure lead. However, I will most likely be shooting lead only bullets.

Paul

[recoil junky]

Were/are you shooting (cast yerself) pure lead bullets in your H&R Buffalo?

I ask because I ran into extremely severe leading problems shooting pure lead bullets (even gas checked) in anything except muzzle loaders

RJ

[drinksgin (deceased)]

RJ, too small, too hard or need a different lube.
I have never had any leading with gas check bullets and with plain base, only when I pushed it too fast.
I use lbt soft blue, Lar's red or a mix of bee's wax and peanut oil, per Art's recipe.
As to the gas check maker, you really need a mini lathe, mine is a cheap 7x12", if you have one, you do not need one as they will do nicely.
On thinking about it[did not strip any gears, so far], I might be able to make one with a drill press.
I just read a post about another way to do it, he used a Forster case trimmer and used the collets with it to swage down the base until a gas check would go on.
Inventive!

[gitano]

Were/are you shooting (cast yerself) pure lead bullets in your H&R Buffalo?

Nope. I AM casting the boolits myself, but they're made of wheel-weight and chilled shot. I made them as hard I could make them. They turn out with a Brinnell Hardness Number (BHN) between 22 and 24. Drinksgin can get his up in the BHN 30 range, but I haven't been able to.

The issue with the Buffalo Classic wasn't so much leading as it was precision. My cast 500-grain Postells were not nearly as precise as the 405-grain Oregon Trail Laser Cast  "Silver Bullets" were/are. And, as you can see, they have no gas check. However, they are a special alloy that includes silver, and my thinking is that they are a little 'slipperier' than boolits cast from wheel weights - even well-lubed ones.

Leading was a MAJOR issue in the .50 Alaskan. I got something like 10 grains of lead out of the bore after only 5 shots! Since it is a cut-rifled bore, I think fire-lapping it would improve the leading problem substantially. Nonetheless, I have no "desire" to shoot bullets that aren't gas-checked. I'm not worried about "traditional" in that sense. (If I was, I'd be using only black powder in that rifle.) As you know, I have figured out how to make my own .510" jacketed bullets, and that's the end of the leading problem. Furthermore, I like those jacketed bullets I make. It was one of those home-made jacketed bullets that I killed that moose with a couple of years ago.

So... the "Silver Bullet" works fine in the Buffalo Classic without leading at about 1800 f/s, (and shoots very straight), and my home-made jacketed bullets work great in the .50 Alaskan.

I don't got no leading problem no more in those rifles. :)

Paul[/FONT][/SIZE]

[recoil junky]

I was asking because we talked before about poor accuracy and leading, but I couldn't remember if it was in the 50AK, 45-70 or both.

I've used the Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullets in my 44 mag. before and (bought 100) melted the last 50 down when I cast bullets a couple times ago. Suffice to say I didn't care for them. I wonder if they are really using silver in them. :undecided:

Don, my plain base bullets cast from wheel weights have never leaded a barrel. But then I don't run them much over 1400 fps.

RJ

Paul, I might send you some 457124's to try.

[gitano]

But then I don't run them much over 1400 fps.

And personally, I think that is about 90% of the answer to leading if one is going to use cast boolits.

I might send you some 457124's to try

Send away. I'll shoot 'em.

Paul

[gitano]

Somehow I missed your last post, Don.

I saw (and bought) a Hornady bullet puller http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=851547 and collets. I read in one of the reviews how you could use it to swage gas check heels on cast boolits. It works, but... 1) You have to have the right-sized collet, and 2) you have to practice a bit to get it consistent.

I'll post a picture when I get a chance.

Paul

[22hornet]

How "hard" is it to size down the jacketed projectiles? Is this something that could be done using a Lee sizer? Is it a viable long term option?
I really like the look of that Lee 452-300-RF. It looks like a "smacker"!
 
Kombi, I had forgotten about your cast projectiles in the No1. Have you tried Trail Boss? Could you please let me know how you are going. In a new thread so as not to hijack Paul's.

[gitano]

I use Lee sizers for most of my 'downsizing' of jacketed bullets. You'll notice two jacketed bullets I resized in post #88 in this thread. The larger of the two started out at .458". I went to .454", then .451", then a big jump to .441" and finally to .439". The jump from .451" to .441" was tough. I accomplish that by doing it in small increments.

I set the bullet on the ram and raise it to it's topmost position. I then screw the resizing die down on top of it until it is a snug fit. I then lower the ram and screw the die in half a turn. Since these are 14-pitch threads, one turn equals about 1/14th of an inch or about 0.07" and therefore half a turn about 0.035". I then ram the bullet into the die. It will jam in and I lower the ram, turn the die in another half-turn, and push the bullet in another 0.035". I repeat this process until the bullet is completely through the die. The .458" FTX (Flex Tip "X") bullet's shown emerge from the .439" die at 0.440" after a 0.001" spring-back. That 0.001" spring-back is what I observe when resizing jacketed bullets. There is no measurable spring-back on cast boolits.

This "small bites" procedure allows me to use the part of the press's stroke that exerts the most force (has the most leverage) - the point right at the end of the stroke. That isn't necessary when I go from .458 to .454 or any of the other small-increment sizings.

Yesterday I received the FTX bullets I ordered that start out at .452". Sizing them down to .440" was considerably easier, but I still used the "small bites" process to go from .452 (original diameter) to the .441" die.

The .452s are 225-grain bullets, and I like the finished .440" version for the drilling. At only ~20 kPSI, I can get them going about 2250 f/s at the muzzle. Even with their poor BC of ~.2, I can get 1000 ft-lbs out to 250 yd and be 'only' 16" low. At 200 yd - my limit for the drilling - this bullet is carrying over 1200 ft-lbs and is 'only' 7.5" low, and  impact velocity is still 1567 f/s. According to Hornady, since this bullet was designed for pistol velocities, its terminal performance at that impact velocity will be "very good". On the other hand, the .458" FTXs are designed for rifles, and while it's BC is better, it's muzzle velocity is low therefore it's impact velocity is down around 1200 f/s. The .458's terminal performance is more in doubt than the terminal performance of the .225-grain handgun bullet.

So... If you want to 'squeeze' bullets to get a certain weight or use a certain type of bullet, or to get a favorite bullet down to a smaller caliber, by all means get after it. The only bullets you cannot do are 'solids'. Oh yeah, COMPLETELY IGNORE ALL the hoohah you may hear about "changing" the "integrity" of the bullet. My personal, first-hand experience, and ALL that I have read from people THAT ACTUALLY SHOOT these resized jacketed bullets, demonstrates clearly that for Hunting applications no differences can be detected between the originals, and the 'squoze" ones. Of course I wouldn't recommend going from a .458 caliber Partition down to a .22 caliber even if it could be done. In fact, I try to choose a 'starting' caliber that is closest to the final caliber that I can.

What do you have in mind?

Paul

PS - I forgot something VERY important... Use LOTS of lube. :D

[22hornet]

Thanks Paul. I have some Winchester .243 80gn SP, the bulk pack.
I would like to try to size down to .224 and use in a .223 and .22/250.
I'm not sure if my .223 has a fast enough twist but I have been told that even a 1:14 twist in a .22/250 is OK.
I only have a small RCBS Partner press, not sure if this will do the job.....

Anyway, if resizing projectiles is so easy it opens up a whole new range of options.

I do size factory cast .314" projectiles in a .311" sizer and they end up at near enough to .312". Good for me.

[gitano]

22hornet - .243 to .224 is 0.019". That's the same distance I had to go to get the .458 bullets down to  to .439". It's a big squeeze, and I suspect even 'harder' because the diameters are smaller. You could order the standard .224" Lee sizer kit ($13.09 before shipping) and two custom sizers in .236" and .229" from Rick Tunell (a total of $49 including $5 shipping to me). I would be happy to see that all three get to you.

Keeping in mind the 0.001" spring-back, you might want to forgo the Lee .224" sizer kit, and simply get another one from Tunell in .222" or .223". If you did that, the total before shipping to Australia would be US$72. Probably close to the same total once you figure the shipping from Midway for the Lee kit. Let's say shipping and insurance to Australia from Alaska was $25 (I'm guessing a figure I think is high). Your total would come to US$97.

If you couldn't otherwise get 80-grain bullets for your .22 caliber center-fires, I would say 'go for it'. However, there are over-the-counter, (OTC), .22 caliber, 80-grain bullets "out there". Berger, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, and Lapua all make 80-grain .22 bullets. Go here: http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=19475&categoryString=9315***652***19785***9016***7240*** for a whole herd of .22 bullets weighing 69-grains and heavier. Acknowledging that Midway won't send most stuff to Australia, I'd be happy to facilitate that shipping if you wanted to buy some of those bullets.

If getting the OTC bullets was too much hassle, or not what you want, then by all means "swage 'em". I think your press would do the job as long as you got the two intermediate diameters.

It's possible that if you got all three dies from Tunell that he would ship them directly to you. If he balks at that, I would just order them, and then I could send them to you. Lemme know how you want to proceed.

Paul

PS - You might want to read the reviews at the Midway site of those 80-grain bullets noting particularly the comments about twist and 'accuracy'. Personally, I kinda doubt you're going to get an 80-grain .22 caliber bullet to stabilize sufficiently in a 14-twist barrel to give you satisfactory precision. I'll run some numbers through my twist calculator and see what it says.

Paul

[gitano]

Here's the output of the twist calculator. While the calculator is a little 'conservative' - might estimate the needed twist rate to be 'fast' by about 1 inch, I've never seen it to be off by multiple inches.

Paul