Smallest caliber for whitetails

[.260deerSlayer]

In your opinion, what is the smallest caliber that you would recommend for hunting whitetails.

[Mike Orwan]

,243 for sure.
I see your handle. Look at the pic I just posted titled yesterdays deer. The rifle is a 6.5 Panther which is a 260 with a .296" neck. Built it quite a few years back on a MkX action with Douglas bbl and McMillan stock. Have used it with a stiff load of Varget and Nosler 120 gr BT's to take quite a few deer. It's a deadly combo on whitetails.

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Depends on the lay of the game field, how spooky the game is and how good a shot you are.  I have done head shots on Whitetail does with a .22 Hornet.  The range was less than 25 yards.  Some folks claim the hot .17s can do the job.

This question is a little unanswerable.  Now if you qualified the question by asking:  "What is the smallest caliber that can be reliably used on quartering shots at Whitetails around 100 yards."
 
Now you've got a more definite question.

[motor (deceased)]

sure you can kill a deer with a 22 rifle if conditions were right but i would not recommend it. the question was what is the smallest caliber you would recommend..i say  a 243..most states have a minimum size limit for deer hunting so you need to check that out in your state..

[Gmoney]

Any centerfire if you hit it right....

[M1Garand]

There are those who are skilled to take deer with a .22 centerfire such as the .223, 22-250 and .220 Swift. I do not recommend it unless you are a very experienced shooter and/or hunter. I've shot several deer with a .223 and IMO, they don't have enough power for deer if the bullet is not placed in exactly the right spot.
 
Look at the history of the .220 swift, which is probably the most powerful commercial .22 centerfire. Back in the day when it was introduced, the "gun writers" wrote what spectacular kills they made on deer with it. When the general hunting public got their hands on the .220, many deer were lost and it didn't give those "spectacular" kills on deer they'd heard about. The .220 got a much undeserved bad rap.
 
A majority of deer hunters only shoot their rifles before the season to sight them in or verify it. Some don't even do that. So as a generalization (and for the general hunter), a .243/6mm is the minimum because if they don't have the range time, they don't have the skill to consistently place a .22 caliber bullet to make a humane kill. And you owe that to whatever you're hunting.

[Gmoney]

At the same time though it really doesn't matter what you hit a whitetail with if you hit it wrong...7mm mag, 30-06, etc.  all of these larger calibers are just as succeptible for a wounded deer not being found if you don't hit it right....these larger calibers just give the deer a larger "kill zone" if you will.....

[cgphunter]

There was a guy around here that shot a button spike on opening weekend at about 75 yrds. with a 300 mag. What's the deal with that???? The deer weighed all of 100 lbs. soaking wet. It was the wost shot I have ever seen. I asked a someone who sort of knows the guy and he said that he was afraid to shoot the thing, and that that is why he was such a terrible shot.
 
So, my question... If a larger/more powerful gun increases your "kill zone" (which I tend to agree) but then decreases your accuracy to the point of bad shots due to recoil and limited time at the range due to bullet expense, then why have such a large caliber?
 
To put it another way - I would much rather show skill in shot placement and make harder shots with a smaller rifle, than blow half my deer away trying to shoot a sholder cannon.
It just makes me sick when I see things done that way. I am new to hunting so I'm sure you guys know plenty of worse instances of this.
 
Chris

[Gmoney]

I agree CGP, I have no desire to own a magnum, do not need a magnum.....Some people use magnums because they can and do provide added benefits that I have no reason to need....therefore I do not have one and probably never will....nothing against magnums but the situation you described above is seen way too often and only reekes (sp.?)  of "inexperience" and "ignorance"....it is almost humorous to see somebody who "has" to have a magnum because this person is such a lousy shot because they think the "magnum" will overtake their "inexperience" and "ignorance"...
 
I do not have a problem with magnums, I just have a problem with the described scenario above because it happens all the time...

[M1Garand]

At the same time though it really doesn't matter what you hit a whitetail with if you hit it wrong...7mm mag, 30-06, etc. all of these larger calibers are just as succeptible for a wounded deer not being found if you don't hit it right....these larger calibers just give the deer a larger "kill zone" if you will.....

You're right there's more room for error with the larger calibers and there is a larger "kill zone". But going by that analogy, you can also use a 22LR for deer hunting it just gives you an even smaller "kill zone". Just because a caliber can be used doesn't mean it's a ideal one for the job, especially for the average hunter. Remember we're talking about the general public and a majority of hunters don't shoot year round, only right before the season if that. They lack the skill to place their shots and have a problem staying within their limitations. And IMO, in the hands of the average hunter they are undergunned using a .22 centerfire.

[Antler3]

I don't think one ought to hunt deer with the 22 caliber. Have heard of to many being wounded. yes they are wounded with the larger calibers too, but i feel the larger calibers leave less room for error. I personally hunt deer with the 30-30 winchester.  The shots i have to make are not over 50 to 60 yards and the 30 caliber does a fine job for me. I believe in one shot ethical kills and feel we as hunters do owe that to the animal we pursue.

[Gmoney]

I can agree with that...however, I do not know anywhere it is legal to even use a 22lr for deer hunting....AND the kill zone going by my analogy will be smaller I.E. - head shots...I agree with you...however
 
quote - "Just because a caliber can be used doesn't mean it's a ideal one for the job, especially for the average hunter."
 
I agree but then ideal means different things for different people....my ideal caliber for taking game would be one that takes the game efficiently (definition varies) and with the most minimal amount of noise and recoil....
 
Someone else's ideal may mean dropping a deer no matter where they hit it and not dependant on recoil and/or noise....
 
All I am saying is that in reply to the initial thread of  "What is the smallest caliber you would recommend for whitetail?" I would tell someone that had a 22-250 and asked me if they could use it for deer, yes...I would tell them to place your shot and the deer will be harvested...it is not necessary for them to go out and buy a .243 because that is the "smallest caliber" you can take whitetails with.....
 
We can agree though that an inexperienced hunter and/or bad shot should probably be using something a little larger to extend the "kill zone."
 
Take care friend, Greg

[Gmoney]

Antler3, I also am a believer of one-shot kills but sometimes no matter what we are shooting (animal or gun) it may require another shot... we have all done this...if someone does not believe in ethical kills and they call themselves a hunter then they are lying...
 
Also, just because you have "heard of too many being wounded" should not make up your mind.  I quit listening to random people giving me testimonies on rifles and performance long ago because they were usually wrong or just making talk...
 
There have been many threads discussing the best "beginner" rifle for a new hunter...I just do not know if I would start someone off with a larger caliber for previously discussed reasons - recoil, flinching.etc.
 
We all agree though that accuracy is most important but just disagree on how small is too small....Have a good day friends...
 
Take care guys, Greg

[cgphunter]

Gmoney,
I for one agree with you completly concerning recoil and noise for begginers. I am still a novice and am just now starting to get over recoil and noise in my shooting. I did not want to purchase a rifle and the one I borrow is a British 303. The first high power rifle I ever shot was a 270 and I will never forget how loud it was and how much I thought it kicked. After shooting a 30-30, 30-06 and .303 I still think that first rifle kicked a good bit more than I would like, but I am getting used to recoil and noise and it is becoming a non issue for me.
An eqivalent example is when I first started shooting a 9mm S&W. I couldn't get used to the rcoil and noise, so I shot a 22LR S&W every evening for two months until I got the feel of how to shoot and hold the gun. It was really loud, but not as bad as the 9mm. I became very accurate with the .22 and when I started shooting my 9mm again I could hit so much better it was remarkable. I spent a good bit on .22 ammo, but saved even more time and money to develope the skills needed to shoot in general with any pistol. I think the same thing is true with a rifle. Start small and work your way up if you can. I have shot .22 rifles all my life, but it just in the past 18 months started shooting large caliber rifles. I wouldn't mind owning or borrowing a .243 or a 25-06 just for the practice, but I would still hunt with the .303 or 30-06.
 
Chris

[Gmoney]

Sounds good to me...that is the way to do it....chat with ya later Greg

[M1Garand]

Gmoney,
You make some very good points and I think we agree on just about everything except the minimum size. I've shot several deer with a .223 in my line of work. None were quick kills. All were within 20 yards and were head shots. They kicked around for a while and I had to shoot all of them again. The history of the 220 Swift tells how a .22 would be as a deer round. A big part of the reason it got it's bad rep (along with being a barrel burner) was it didn't kill deer for the average hunter like the writers said it would. Was that the Swifts fault or the hunters not knowing their abilities and limitations? Can't answer that but history has shown that a .22 didn't make consistent kills on deer in the hands of the average hunter. And this is the top dog .22.
 
My brother shot his first buck this year, a 1 1/2 year old 5-pt through both lungs with a .308 using 150 gr ballistic silvertips. It was about 50 yards away and took off like he missed. He thought he did but tracked anyway to make sure and they found it later in the day roughly 110 yards away in a fence row...dead. Had that been a .22 centerfire (with at least a thousand less ft lbs of energy), that buck would have died...eventually and I have a hard time believing he would have found it.
 
Deer are unpredictible in how they react from being shot, some go right down, others take off even if shot with much larger calibers. Some of those deer that run on a larger caliber and are found 50-100 yards away when shot placement was good, I'm sure would go a lot further on a round with a lot less energy increasing the chance of not being found. A buck may be juiced up with hormones from the rut or it may be a huge buck (If I remember right, the MI record for a whitetail buck is 400+ lbs and that was dressed). Bullet placement is key but you also want the power to put them down if a bruiser steps out.
 
You said that if someone had a 22-250 you'd tell them to place your shot and the deer will be harvested. Generally good advice and maybe it's relative to where you hunt but where I do, 200+ yard shots at deer not uncommon and IMO, a little far for a 22-250 and a 55 gr bullet.
 
With this much variation in deer and my experiences, I just don't believe a .22 can consistently put a deer down in the hands of the average hunter to be recommended as a minimum caliber. At least not here in MI. IMO, a .243 is the minimum I'd recommend to someone if they told me they wanted to try deer hunting.

[rockinbbar]

Ok...I'm getting in this...again.

A .22 centerfire is quite able to make one shot kills on deer size game. Period.

I would reccomend it for the accurate, experienced hunter. Not the beginner.
I have killed more deer than you could stuff into an 18 wheeler trailer with a .223. I never had one go over 30 yards, shot behind the shoulder. Most drop in their tracks.

M1,
The reason the .220 Swift has lost popularity is due to vast improvements being made in cartridge design. The 22-250 has all but replaced it. They are equal in ballistics, & killing power. The Swift is a semi-rimmed case design that can lean to feeding problems with a bolt action rifle. I also believe it's reputation as a "barrel burner" is not warranted. With any high velocity centerfire round, throat errosion becomes a problem after you put many, many rounds through the gun. The Swift might do it a LITTLE sooner, but, to the avg shooter the rifle should last a lifetime.

I can't imagine you having trouble shooting a .223 into deer's heads at 20 yards & having to shoot them again....LOL> A .22 short in the brain kills a deer at 20 yards like they are pole-axed. Perhaps the thrashing is just what deer do when shot in the head.

Gmoney mentioned that he would tell someone to place their shot well with a 22-250....I second that motion with ANY caliber. A deer shot through the guts with a 30-06 will run just as far as one gutshot with a 22-250.

Yardage makes little difference out to 300 yards with my .223  on deer, I fail to see why anything over 200 yards is off limits as well. When they get past 300 yards I will shot them in the neck..

I indulged myself in my younger years with taking a shot I knew was TOO far with my .223. I guessed at the drop & shot. The deer fell in it's tracks. My hunting partner paced the yardage at a shade over 600 yards. The buck was hit in the neck...More accident than skill, but, I found out that a .223 will kill a deer at 600 yards.

As far as my recommendation for novice hunters..I would at least get a .243 Win., or a .25 WSM for deer. Practice with it, shoot offhand, & on different rests. You won't have a sandbag in the field.

You mentioned that your brother had to trail a deer shot with a .308....I have seen this plenty with the "bigger" calibers....270,30-06,.308,7mm mag,etc....
In my opinion the reason this happens is that the bullet passes through the deer without expanding much. It just doesn't fragment the way a .22 centerfire does...
Upon dressing many, many deer shot with a .22 centerfire, it is evident that the little fast bullet fragments & makes "Jello" out of the heart & lungs. Perhaps if your brother used a 22-250, it would have dropped in it's tracks....Who knows?

We all have had different levels of experience with different calibers & game we hunt, so, what works for one might not work for someone else...It doesn't mean that that person is wrong, or that caliber is bad...it just worked out differently for others.

I know if I had a magic crystal ball & knew I was going to see  the buck of a lifetime on my hunt the next day, I would pull out my .223 to take him with....Whether he is located in Canada, or in Texas.....They all fall when I pull that trigger.

Rockinbbar

[RatherBHuntin]

I think you hit on a key point M1Garand, alot depends on location.  I was talkin to a friend not 2 hours ago about his lease owner who uses 22-250 for nearly all his deer hunting.  I am located about 100 miles from GMONEY.  Also, if you ever get a chance pick up a copy of Texas Trophy Hunters magazine, in the back are usually about a hundred children with their first deer, split between being taken with the .223 and the .243.  Both are equally useful here, and the deer (at least body weight) are probably about half the weight of your northern bunch.

[Gmoney]

M1 you make good points as well...however we do disagree.... here in Texas I'd venture and say at least half the deer taken in this state is with a caliber UNDER the size of a .243.... and there are large bodied deer in this state in the northern portion... I know of a guy who has used a hornet with a 50 grain pill for his whole life to take deer and he has never missed one and he has never had one get away.  A 22 centerfire slug, like Rockin' says will perform wonderfully on a deer sized animal and you will get excellent results.. but it is all preference and yes the size of the deer can matter but you put a 22-250 slug in the vitals, neck or head or a deer and I don't care if it is 300 lbs. it will die quickly.  Chat at ya later, Greg

[M1Garand]

LOL, I think this is one of those things like which is the best deer rifle..there will always be a difference of opinion...
 
Rockinbbar, ANY caliber is capable of making a one shot kill. His name slips my mind but a number of years ago he shot elephants with a 7 x 57, does that make it an elephant gun? Not saying .22's can't be used, just I wouldn't recommend them to a new hunter and I think we agree on that. They seem to be very popular down that way, I just don't see many around here. I think it may be a region thing as here, I have personally never run into anyone who uses one. BTW, the .223 I used to put down some injured deer was an H/K with a 9 inch barrel using Federal tac rounds.
 
The deer my brother shot was with ballistic silvertips I chrony'd at around 2800 fps. You make a valid point about bullet expansion and would probably be a good one if he was using a partition, a-frame, barnes or some other heavier jacketed bullet. But a ballistic silvertip? You'd think it'd just about explode at that range my brother shot it. I will concede to you this: If it works for you and you're not losing deer, then you're doing right.

[M1Garand]

Thought I'd add this I took from another forum posted by a guy who's gun club in the midwest did a study and kept track of the rifles non members brought to sight in before the season:
 
2002 2003 2004
 
#1......30-06 Springfield = 195 213 179
#2......30/30................ = 78 87 82
#3.......270Win............. = 58 52 54
#4.......308Win...............= 23 22 31
#5.......7mmMauser........= 19 12 21
#6.......300Win Mag........= 17 21 19
#7........243...................= 14 21 21
#8.......7.62X39..............= 12 6 11
#9.......35Remington.......= 6 6 9
#10......7mm Mag...........= 9 20 8
#11......25-06.................= 3 5 8
#12.......8mmMauser.......= 3 0 6
 
 
As this indicates, I think a .22 is much more common down your guys way than up here. I'm curious to as if any reasons you guys may think that the .22's are so popular down there and don't seem to be up here (and I don't want to hear because you're better shots...lol).
 
I think RatherBHuntin made a good point in deer size may be a good indicator why the .22's are appear to be much more popular there. I remember when I was at Ft. Benning, GA and saw deer frequently, they appeared much smaller than I was used to. A guy in my platoon was from GA and went deer hunting one year and said he got a nice 6-pt that dressed out at 90 lbs. Is this the norm in body weight? Granted I'm sure that deer was rutting and lost some pounds but that seemed awfully small to me.

[Gmoney]

Size probably has a lot to do with it...our deer are an average smaller than you Michigan deer....I know a lot of people that hunt down here with one gun....and I mean everything...varmints, deer, hogs....and a .22 centerfire is a good choice for this"combo" gun....Rockin' and Rather B...help me out guys since ya'll are a little older...lol...
 
Oh and yes I am a better shot than them....lol..

[RatherBHuntin]

You're on your own, I may be older, but you got more experience. I am pretty sure that noone will argue the fact that the deer on the Edwards Plateau (Hill Country) have smaller bodies than many others, both in Texas and "abroad". Many areas of the south also have these smaller breeds of deer. Oddly enough, South Texas has bigger ones, but they also have extensively pumped in fresh genes from selected deer. My brother just made a trip from Alabama to Michigan, and he said he probably saw about a 100 whitetails, each one getting progressively bigger as he went north. I have heard that this is attributed to the animals needing to be bigger to retain body heat and energy throughout the winter. Of course there are also genetic differances, with many more sub species of deer than coues, key, blacktail and sitka.
 
 M1,  
 What type of bullet were you using?  I'm curious, as the bullet is seeming to be as important, if not more so, than the calibre.  It aint as easy as just going to the hardware store and picking up a box anymore.  Also I really liked that info you posted, and was suprised to see not many 7mm Mags and more .35 than I expected.  And the 7.62x39, I bet were just folks who had bought AKs and wanted to shoot them, I cant believe people would use it as a hunting round.

[M1Garand]

In the .223 I used they were Federal 55 and 62 grain soft point tac rounds. I have no idea what the velocity on those are in a 9-inch barrel but when I get a chance, I think I'll chrony a few to see. You're right in that bullet performance is critital as well, I remember a few years ago my dad shot a deer and apparently some other guy shot it earlier and was tracking it. Long story short, don't remember the caliber but I want to say a .308 and he was using FMJ bullets and he gut shot it. The hole was like pencil size through and through and just had some small holes in the intestine. He never would have found that deer and I bet it would have taken it at least a day or two if not longer to die.
 
I was surprised to see the 7.62 X 39 up there myself as I didn't think it was that common but apparently more so than I thought. It'd be interesting to see a list like that from a club down your way to see what the more popular calibers are.

[rockinbbar]

I think alot of why the 22 centerfire calibers are used out West, is that they need a multi purpose gun for deer, & whatever they might run across out here that might be at more extreme ranges than in the Eastern States...

Also, in the East, they are mostly used to being taught that you have to have a "brush buster" of at least 30 caliber...

In Central Texas, the deer are kinda smallish in size, that goes to the bigger "Eastern" type deer in South Texas & the Panhandle...so, the size varies from 100 lbs live weight to over 250 lbs live weight. So, deer size factors in somewhat, but not that much. I know several people in S. Texas that hunt with 22-250's, or 223's...

Having had a ranch in Uvalde, in S. Texas, the vast number of ranchers out there use calibers from 25-06 on down...while alot of the hunters that lease their ranches use .270's,30-06's etc.

I guess what it boils down to is that the ranchers, ranch managers & those type people know that it doesn't take a whole lot of bullet to kill a deer....They might also be shooting everything from coyotes to nutria as well, so they don't want a loud, high recoil rifle, when a quiter, well placed shot does the job just as well. I have a rancher friend up here that has an SKS in 7.62x39 he uses as a pickup gun while on the ranch to kill everything from bear & lion to coyotes. Just what a person likes & prefers I guess.

Rockinbbar

[LLANOJOHN (deceased)]

Friends & Neighbors!
 
Well, I have to add my $0.05's worth in here for what its worth. I was looking over my books the other day and did a quick check on calibers that have come thru the shop prior to hunting season. The 22-250 tops the list followed by .222, 243, 25-06 and .223.
 
My go-to deer rifle is a .223 with my reloads using W-W 55gr SP's. Chronograph shows an average of 3060 +/- out of the 20" barrel. Other factory ammo has been Federal and Remington. The Federal bullets 55gr SP were more explosive than the Rem or W-W bullets so I quit using them. 98% of the deer I have downed over the years have been neck-shots at less than 100 yards, most at about 70 yards. I have to include the 2 Aoudad rams that met their demise with the 55gr W-W bullets, both 1 shot kills and each animal went about 50 yards.
 
This year the .223 is taking a back seat so I can hunt with my CZ 550 American chambered for the 6.5X55 Swede. Handloads using 120 Nosler BT in Lapua cases with 48.0gr of RL-22 powder. That is, if I can finally get to my cousin's ranch in Llano county. Maybe next week sometime.
 
To echo the words of my Texas compatriots..."you have gots to put the right bullet in the proper place"....If you don't do that it doesn't matter if its a 22 CF or a .458 mag........you have a better than 50% chance or more of not putting the deer down for the count...and if you are worth your salt as a hunter that means tracking..........and I hate tracking...... so its best to take your time and ensure you put the bullet in the right place.
 
Ol' John

[M1Garand]

I agree the single most important advice in hunting is to choose your shot and place the bullet in the right spot. Second to me is KNOW your personal abilities and STAY witin them....Hondo, great rifle that CZ 550, I screwed up and saw a used one in .223 I was going to buy for bobcat and didn't and then it was gone....I guess I learned a lot from this thread, that you can use .22's on those small Texas deer, and here I thought everything was larger down there....LOL..:D
BTW...I see that the Longhorns are playing the Wolverines in the Rose Bowl..should be a great game.

[Gmoney]

No comment on the TU game.....lol..... tea-sippers....

[M1Garand]

Well the teasippers may come off with a win, the Wolverines don't exactly have to best record in the Rose Bowl.

[clarkston_cz]

:)I'd say a CZ 550 American in .243 would be the smallest/best for deer sized game.
   My buddy in oregon has a Savage in .243. I liked the caliber, but prefer my CZs.
 As a long-time fan/user of the .270 Winchester.When the 6.8 Rem SPC comes out in a CZ or other rifle this year..that would be ideal.
 
 
 

[wrangler88]

Hello, I'm a new member. In my state of Tennessee, the smallest caliber for deer is .243 for rifles, .357 handguns and .45 muzzleloaders. I think we owe it to the whitetail to give the most cleanest and quick killing shot we can. I stive for a double-lung shot which is a guaranteed kill with a maximum blood trail. IMHO

[Antler3]

Glad to meet you Wrangler88... I agree with you on humane shots. I too strive for a clean kill. I hunt with a winchester 30 - 30. Here in these hills where I hunt you don't get much over a 50 or 60 yard shot. It has served me well so far. Welcome to THL, stop by the campfire and grab a hot cup of that rebel coffee. :)

[wrangler88]

Thanks for the welcome. It sounds like your woods are like mine, thick and hilly. My longest shots would be on the four gaslines that run through the 5300 acres that I hunt. That's why I like hunting with big bore rifles like my .45-70 and 44 mag. carbines.

[Oregoneric]

I have seen my father kill 15+ whitetails with his trusty ol ruger 77 in 22-250. After I was old enough to really understand ballistics, I could not believe that's all he ever used (uses). He hunts in South Dakota where things are OPEN and 300+ yard shots are  common. Anybody who says " if I can't get within 300 yards then I need to be better at stalking" has never been to SD and seen two mile square cornfields. I have never seen him lose a deer. I would surely not recommend that caliber. I think the perfect gun for full size whitetails is a 300 remington ultra mag. It's flatter than the 22-250 and has 4 times the power. But thats just my goofy opinion. I don't like the idea of using the smallest possible caliber. I have good tracking skills, but I don't want to use them. One shot, one step.

[periscope_depth]

In most (if not all) States....hunting deer is illegal with a .22 caliber rifle.
 
That being said....many..especially property owners are not subject to a game wardens scrutiny.  Like the speed limit....enforcement is difficult if not impossible on private property.
 
As most have stated....anyone worth their salt wants to make a humane kill.  The idea is to harvest the deer not mame it.  
 
I have never killed or shot at a deer with a .22 centerfire rifle...but suspect that if you choose a bullet heavier than 55 grns....a bullet with a thicker jacket and you keep your shots within 50 to 100 yards....no reason why a 65 or 70 grn .22 slug wouldn't consistently penetrate to the vitals.
 
I have heard people having good success with the .357 magnum in a rifle and even the .40 SW at very close range.  It just comes down to placement and bullet construction.

[m gardner]

I've had the best luck with the 270 winchester. It's easy to shoot and will reach out to longer distances. I've shot hundreds of deer with most anything you can think of and have settled on this. The reason I feel this way is that minimum calibers need expert shooting and usually the beginners use them because they are intimidated by recoil. Most experts use the big thirties when they hunt, not the minimums. God bless and good hunting.

[quigleysharps4570]

Kansas the minimum caliber is .243...if they'd change it...I'd give the .220 Swift a shot at it. Don't reckon that will ever happen though.

[shootdown]

IMO, 30-06 a very good all around rifle. a friend had a mag. the weight was close to his body weight. the first shot was off hand, secound was prone. never took a third. his brother now uses it to line up when marking out a field. never did walk quite right after that experiance.
 
Merry Christmas
Dave, shootdown

[buckshot roberts]

The state of Kentucky, you can use any "centerfire caliber" .
.22 rimfire is not legal, I know that they are some who can kill a deer with a .22, I've never used anything under a 30 cal, If the .22 is legal and you can make a clean Kill use it .
 
Anybody out their use the Savage 250-3000, or 22 high power.

[trahanml]

Many years back I went out to Texas for a hunt where 4 hunters were there to cull some of lesser genetic quality deer off this ranch. One hunter was using a 223 and shot a deer 4 times in the lung area broad side. We found the deer after a n extensive 5 hour search.  The shots were picture perfect (complete pass through both lungs) but the small diameter holes seemed to seal themselves  and no blood what so ever was found.  I thought then and I still think that any bullet placed right will kill most animals but if you can't find it what is the point. That same gun shot 2 more deer and one of those had holes as big as my fist so, I gues my point is that why take the chance, use a bigger caliber  and up your odds of recovery.

[trahanml]

Many years back I went out to Texas for a hunt where 4 hunters were there to cull some of lesser genetic quality deer off this ranch. One hunter was using a 223 and shot a deer 4 times in the lung area broad side. We found the deer after  an extensive 5 hour search. The shots were picture perfect (complete pass through both lungs) but the small diameter holes seemed to seal themselves and no blood what so ever was found (although the chest cavity was full of blood). I thought then and I still think that any bullet placed right will kill most animals but if you can't find it what is the point. That same gun shot 2 more deer and one of those had holes as big as my fist so, I gues my point is that why take the chance, use a bigger caliber and up your odds of recovery.

[Daryl (deceased)]

Many years back I went out to Texas for a hunt where 4 hunters were there to cull some of lesser genetic quality deer off this ranch. One hunter was using a 223 and shot a deer 4 times in the lung area broad side. We found the deer after an extensive 5 hour search. The shots were picture perfect (complete pass through both lungs) but the small diameter holes seemed to seal themselves and no blood what so ever was found (although the chest cavity was full of blood). I thought then and I still think that any bullet placed right will kill most animals but if you can't find it what is the point. That same gun shot 2 more deer and one of those had holes as big as my fist so, I gues my point is that why take the chance, use a bigger caliber and up your odds of recovery.

I can't help but wonder what kind of bullets that shooter was using.
 
FMJ's don't usually kill too well, with unpredictable results.  Sometimes they'll just pencil through, and cause  you to track game a long ways sometimes.  Other times they'll "yaw" off course, tumble, and make a large exit.  In that case, they USUALLY kill fairly quick.
 
If that's what the shooter was using, then it's not a good example of what the .223 does on game.
 
Using correct bullets, within reasonable range, and with good bullet placement, the .223 can and does kill deer very quickly and reliably.
 
Using a pointed bullet that pencils through without expanding, a .30 caliber wouldn't kill much better.  Those holes would plug up without bleeding much more, too.
 
That's one reason FMJ's are not legal in many states for hunting.
 
Daryl

[ForneyRider]

I shot a buck yesterday with my DPMS Panther bull 20 in .223 with factory (bulk ammo)50gr load(3200fps). It ran about 3 yards and fell over and never got up. About 100-120 yard shot into the woods from a stand. I made a heart-lung shot. I have a ton of reloads for this rifle, but haven't had time to test before hunting season so I went with factory load.
 
My dad shot one with his Remy 700 VLS in .22-250 at 30 yards with my 50gr V-Max (3900fps)reload. Neck shot paralyzed the animal, it never got back up.
 
My brother shot a 8pt buck with 270 Win and 130gr SST, another of my handloads but similar to Hornady load (3100fps). Shoulder shot went through both ribs and out the other side. It ran 40 yards and croaked. This was the longest shot of the day, 150-200 yards.
 
In all, 5 animals. 2 hogs caught in live trap killed with 380 ACP and 88JHP Remington Express ammo.
 
My 7mm mag sits in my closet.

[Alboy]

Back to the original question.
 
Smallest caliber to recommend.
For new hunters, assuming little trigger time, a 243 is as small as I reccomend.
 
Build in more experience, guided by someone with experience or if it is all you got then use it; any centerfire weapon will get the job done.

[Paul Hoskins]

I have purposely stayed out of this thread. It never ceases to amaze me how many people decry the smaller calibers for deer and black bear. Makes me wonder what expierence they have with smaller calibers. For the past twenty some years I've used smaller calibers almost exclusively. I only use a larger caliber when I build a new rifle in a diffrent caliber just to "blood" it. None of the black bear I've shot with 22 calibers has required a second shot. Sometimes I wonder why I build a rifle in any caliber other than 17, 204 or 22 because I don't need them for my hunting. Anyone that "thinks" a 22 caliber isn't powerful enough should buy one and try it. Then they will know the "truth." I'll be the first one to agree varmint bullets are useless on deer for the most part. Too many people don't know the diffrence between varmint and game bullets. A 22/250 loaded with 60 gr. Nosler Partition bullets is bad news for the deer. Same goes for the 223 Rem. I prefer them over the Barnes X bullets any day. Many states now allow "any centerfire" for deer. I have shot truckloads of deer and most have been killed with either 17 or 22 calibers. With the 17 calibers it's best to use something like my all copper homemade hollow point bullets. There is lots of good 22 caliber game bullets available from commercial makers. For begenners I would reccommend the 6mm calibers tho. .............Paul H

[Antler3]

Glad to meet you Wrangler88... I agree with you on humane shots. I too strive for a clean kill. I hunt with a winchester 30 - 30. Here in these hills where I hunt you don't get much over a 50 or 60 yard shot. It has served me well so far. Welcome to THL, stop by the campfire and grab a hot cup of that rebel coffee. :)

For the last two hunting seasons I have had a Browning 270 rifle. It has performed well and I am very satisfied with it, but I still have my winchester model 94, 30-30    .   It's been awhile since this thread was started I assume. I am looking into purchasing my 8 year old Grandaughter a first deer rifle and have heard good and bad with the 223. She doesn't need much recoil at all but on the other hand I want her to be able to make a quick killing shot. The 243 has been recommended also. She doesn't weigh 50 pounds soaking wet and finding her a good rifle will be a challenge. I have heard good things about the 223 like a little boy only six made a 220 yard shot just this year with his 223 and the big buck didn't go 50 yards before expiring.

[Alboy]

Back to the original question.
 
Smallest caliber to recommend.
For new hunters, assuming little trigger time, a 243 is as small as I reccomend.
 
Build in more experience, guided by someone with experience or if it is all you got then use it; any centerfire weapon will get the job done.

I still stand by this. Teach her to shoot Antler and give her the benefit of your help in the stand for a bit and there is no problem.

[gitano]

What Alboy said.
 
Paul

[Antler3]

Yes I'll agree with the both of you.  She has a little pink single shot 22 that we have been shooting.  She loves to go shoot.  And I'll have to say she's already a pretty good shot, even off handed.  :) .  I'm leaning toward the youth model 223 to start her with.

[RatherBHuntin]

The .223 has laid out a lot of deer at our camp.  Most of the kids started out on either one of those or a .243

[whitetailhunter]

probly 22 magnum if you can find one

[Paul Hoskins]

wth...........Welcome aboard.  22Magnums are commom. Finding a state that allows the use of one is the problem. Maine is the only state that allows them that I am aware of.      ............Paul H

[Daryl (deceased)]

Yep. The .22 mag isn't legal here in Arizona, although a rifle that's chambered for it is pretty common.  Mine makes a neat little fox and bobcat getter.
 
Daryl

[Alboy]

Thought I would come back and give a little more imput.
Generally hogs are tougher than deer any day. This 250+ pound boar was taken with one shot by a 223 about 1 am under a 3/4 moon at about 80 yards.

[gitano]

Nice pig!
 
Paul

[Steve D]

Since I read my mail at work, I sometimes have limited time to devote to it, which means that since this thread goes back a ways,  I didn't take the time to read every response.  So, if I'm repeating something someone else has said, my apologies.  
 
We often hear this question.  Usually my first question is, do you mean bore size or cartridge?  We usually assume bore size, but there are other considerations, as well.  Most people would agree that a 243 Win would be better than a 30 carbine, even though the bore of the 30 carbine is bigger.  Many consider the 357 Mag enough for deer, yet dispute the 223, even though the 223 has much more energy at all ranges.  None of this disputes the words of wisdom I have read.  I think the wisest (sp?) words are, no matter what you use, make sure you use it well.  A cannon won't be as good as the 223 if you can't shoot it well.
 
I have also heard people in stores deciding what to get their youngster for their first firearm.  I am surprised at the number of parents who opt for a .410.  I actually couldn't keep my mouth shut when I heard this recently and stuck my nose in their business.  I told them that the .410 is an expert's firearm and suggested a 20 ga, instead.  I told them you can get light loads in 20, you can expect much more success, and incidently fun.  It can then be used for larger and larger game, up to and including deer within range limitations.  The same goes for a rifle.  A 223 is relatively light recoiling, but even the 6mm TCU, 6.5 TCU, 7 TCU are light recoiling and more effective on deer.  Even a 250 Savage is a better choice as long as one learns to shoot it well.  I personally think the 250 has an edge over the 243 with no more or even less recoil.