Kombi

[recoil junky]

So what's the deal. I get an email form Andy saying he's done.  Apparently an "administrator" says his threads and posts "aren't helpful". Well, I've always found Andy's posts and threads if not helpful, at least entertaining. Yes we all have bad days or don't always agree because of some stupid reason. Maybe you're from England and I'm from Colorado SO THE F**K WHAT!! If I don't like what you  have to say I don't read it.  

One of the things as a moderator/ "administrator" we have to do is be not so one sided as we are the ones that take care of THL. Yes Mr. Skvorik has final say, but one administrator does not a forum make.

I go to the thread "Kombi at it again" and I can't even read it getting a message saying "you are not allowed" because it's moved. Moved where and why can't I read it. I'm a "super moderator" for Christ's sake!

WTF?!!!

Allen

[gitano]

Easy there big fella. You don't know the whole story, and it is always unwise to get too excited by one side of a story.

First, let's get something patently clear: Andy's "departure" was 100% his idea. Period. More than one person - myself included - suggested to him that he reconsider a hasty decision. HE has chosen to take his ball and go home. NO ONE - including j0e-bl0ggs - told or even suggested that he "leave" THL.

I'm not very happy about Andy fomenting trouble. It's both immature and wrong.  As a result, I have removed his permissions for viewing this part of the THL forum and I FULLY EXPECT ALL MODERATORS to respect the privacy of the communications within this space.

Andy had a habit of "pontificating" as if he was an "expert". There are TWO problems with that. First he WASN'T an "expert" in any aspect of firearms. Period. His attempts to be one were annoying, but understandable. HOWEVER, in his attempts at being a "guru", he OFTEN spewed ****, and it was ALWAYS repeating some BS internet mythology. Every time that happened, "somebody", usually me, had to find a way to 'gently' get the TRUTH out without hurting Andy's feelings.

With regard to the thread you can't read. EYE (for emphasis) moved that thread to the Admin area. ONLY administrators can access that area. I moved it there TO SPARE ANDY'S feelings AND to get the matter under control. The matter was already under control when Andy decided to have a tantrum and "quit" THL. NOW, he's MISREPRESENTING reality in an effort to MAKE TROUBLE for j0e_bl0ggs. What he is actually doing is NOT in the best interest of THL.

I don't particularly appreciate your "attitude" on this without checking on whether there MIGHT be "another side to the story". "Super Moderator" or not, only three people have access to the Admin area, and that is for a very good reason: The safety of THL. This little escapade is EXACTLY WHY "Moderators" and even "Super Moderators" don't have access to that site. If they did, Andy could have wreaked havoc on THL. I'm not saying he would have, but considering this immature and MIS-LEADING "campaign" of his, it is certainly in the realm of possibilities.

Since I am sure you will be in communication with him, let me make sure you understand the MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES:

1) NO ONE even "asked" Andy to leave THL. PERIOD.
2) SEVERAL PEOPLE - INCLUDING me - recommended that he NOT leave.
3) j0e_bl0ggs has the BEST INTEREST OF THL at heart in his admonishments of Andy. He simply doesn't have the patience that I do in dealing with Andy's REPEATED parroting of BS he reads from "gurus" (HIS words) that he "worships" in Australia.
4) This little "campaign" about "oh poor me", is immature, dishonest, and not in the best interest of THL. It certainly doesn't endear me to Andy.
5) When Andy sent ME his "letter of resignation", besides recommending that he NOT "leave", I told him that up to that point he had behaved maturely, had the moral "high ground", and that people understood his position. He's lost ALL credibility with me at this point.

Now, to ALL who have access to this particular sub-forum of THL: This place is a location where we DISCUSS matters in a CIVIL manner. While we are all "big boys" and can certainly handle 'straight-from-the-shoulder' talk, COURTESY REMAINS the guide at THL INCLUDING IN THIS LOCATION. Furthermore, those that violate the sanctity of this site and gossip outside this location about communications within this location will have their access to this location terminated as a matter of THL security.

The matter of j0e_bloggs' PUBLIC "attitude" towards Andy was ALREADY DEALT WITH BEFORE ANDY PULLED THIS STUNT. The WHOLE matter was resolved if Andy had simply let matters alone. j0e_bloggs had been admonished to "leave Andy alone", and had agreed to. And by the way, it isn't just j0e_bl0ggs that has a problem with the stupidity that Andy didn't seem capable of restraining.

I asked Andy to reconsider his decision AND take j0e-bl0ggs SUGGESTIONS about NOT TALKING OUT HIS *** - to heart. Andy - ALONE - chose to have a "hissy fit" AND try to cause trouble AFTER THE MATTER HAD BEEN ADDRESSED AND DEALT WITH. There were no "bad guys" in this matter until Andy started this DISHONEST campaign. Now, the only "bad guy" I see, is Andy.

Nothing written in this part of the forum is ANYONE'S business except those that have access to this space.

I expect everyone to behave like ADULTS, and DO NOT REPEAT WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE.

Paul

[22hornet]

I received an email from Andy yesterday with him saying that it was time for him to move on. Nothing in there about anyone forcing his hand or anything like that. It was all very civil. I have not had a chance to reply to him yet as I was coming off a bad night shift. More problems I could have done without.
I did reply to the original post you referred to RJ before it was moved. I guess I just saw things differently to others. The keyboard has a hard time trying to display emotion and context a lot of the time. I took Andy's posts (obviously) very different to some others. I didn't see Andy "pontificating as if he was an expert". Maybe it was because we come from the same country, we read the same magazines, shoot with similar people, hunt on similar ground. Same culture?
Andy is a nice bloke with a good heart, I'm very sure he didn't mean to come off the way he did, but perception is everything. He has chosen to move on and I accept that. I liked his posts, his writings and I will miss them.
Don't worry Paul, "what happens on shift stays on shift". I won't be giving Andy "the guts", or how you say "tip off?"
All good from this end of the world.

[gitano]

Thank you, 22hornet.

My comments to Andy were about what you have expressed. I enjoyed his posts and his 'strays' into 'expertness' were, as I said annoying, but tolerable to me and relatively infrequent. I told him that he would be missed at THL, and I'm certain that is true. However, it must be emphasized that no one 'drove' him off, no one 'asked' him to leave, and no one even 'suggested' that he leave. The conflict between he and j0e_bl0ggs had been resolved when he chose to "leave" THL.

I appreciate your comments.

Paul

[recoil junky]

Nothing written in this part of the forum is ANYONE'S business except those that have access to this space.

I expect everyone to behave like ADULTS, and DO NOT REPEAT WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE.

Paul

Exactly why I put it  "here".

If Andy left of his own free will that's ok, BUT it scrambles my eggs that it had to come to  (IMO) a valued contributing member decided to pull the plug. As 22hornet put it , the key-board can't show true emotion and while we can delete things (editing) as they are written is often forgotten in the fever pitch of "word crafting". I do this very often myself and regret "saying" what I did.

Paul, you and I have had some "heated" discussions here with neither side relenting and neither side brandishing the flame of victory. We, as gentlemen often agree to disagree. It's in this spirit that I view most threads/posts when I disagree with the author. More often than not I don't respond to save a lot of "heartache" or what we call at work, "hurt feelers".

No, I don't want a "set of keys" or the "launch codes" but what I would like is more discussion about how discipline is rendered. A thread can be "unapproved" which makes it "disappear" while we moderators hash out what to do with it's author and contents. Was joe right in his handling of "kombi" I don't know because I didn't "see" it all. I did sense some "bad blood" between kombi and joe in a few posts/threads and maybe the conflict couldn't have been resolved, I'll never know.

I will say this: kombi did tell some good hunting stories and "showed" us a side to the world that is uniquely "Down Under". He also contributed greatly with his knowledge about the firearms he did know about and have a passion for.

Allen

[gitano]

The conflict between Andy and Alain WAS resolved. It was taken care of. Alain had been admonished AND had agreed to "leave Andy alone".

I agree that discussing "discipline" is a good idea, but it's not a good idea to do it in the "heat of the battle" of an on-going conflict between two members. However, "discipline" has rarely been an issue at THL BECAUSE the THL culture is one of "courtesy" and "agree to disagree".

While this particular event has had an unpleasant outcome, I don't think we have a "discipline problem" or even "issue" here. Honestly, I don't think there is much "wrong" with how things go at THL. The single area I have concern about is how to deal with a post or thread that contains "mythology". It's tough.

I have started a thread on the history of the Lee-Enfield Battlefield rifle that I am trying to use as a vehicle to demonstrate HOW to talk about stuff that one doesn't have first-hand knowledge of. I do not believe anyone at THL was around when the Lee Enfield battlefield rifles were developed. Therefore, NO ONE can claim "authority" about ANY matter associated with their development. Nonetheless, people do. EVERYTHING, ANYONE, claims to "know" about the development of Lee Enfield battlefield rifles HAS  to have COME from outside their personal, first-hand knowledge.  This was the type of "sin" Andy perpetrated quite often.

It was difficult to reign Alain in on castigating Andy because Alain was RIGHT. The "problem" was primarily (but not solely) written communication. This isn't a "discipline" issue, it's a communication issue. First, communicating what one wants to communicate about some specific subject, (what Andy wanted to say), and second, effectively and courteously communicating "corrections", (what Alain wanted to say).

Part of the difficulty is that this issue isn't one of "disagreement". If someone posts at THL that the sun rose in the east this morning, those that KNOW better are not in "disagreement". They KNOW that the post is WRONG. There is no need for "agree to disagree", there is need for "correction". If the person that posted that the sun rose in the east takes that assertion personally, then when they get corrected, they get defensive.

While "the sun rose in the east" is an EASY issue to address, some of the mythology of firearms is MUCH more difficult to deal with . So much of it has been "common knowledge", (FALSE "knowledge"), for so long, AND so many have "bought" it, that those that repeat it BELIEVE it is true even though they have NO first-hand knowledge on the matter. THAT'S where the problems begin. If the myth/misinformation came from a trusted source, especially someone like a father or uncle, it has probably LONG been enshrined in family folklore. Correcting THOSE kinds of errors IS DIFFICULT, but IMPORTANT. THL is a "no-BS" zone.

I'm not inclined to think there is a "discipline" issue at THL. Neither am I inclined to think there is any particularly "sore spot" at THL that needs some overt action by the administration of THL, which includes ALL of the moderators. All I think 'needs' to happen is "moderation" by ALL of the moderators - not just one - with regard to repetitions of mythology. If Alain had not been the only voice correcting Andy's gaffs, Andy would not have felt like Alain "had it in for him".

So... How - exactly - are the moderators supposed to nip in the bud, comments posted as if the poster is speaking with "authority" on the matter, when the moderator either knows they are wrong, or, even DOESN'T know? It's simple actually. If the poster COULDN'T have FIRST-HAND knowledge about which they write, then they should be "encouraged" to CITE from whence their "knowledge" comes. SPECIFICALLY. Even a generality like "I think I read it in Skennerton" is an IMPORTANT qualification. Such a qualifier takes the PERSONAL away from the discussion, and allows someone else to challenge the point without it being a PERSONAL attack on the original poster.

THAT WAS THE FOUNDATION STONE OF THE "kombi issue".

Furthermore, I would submit, that that situation is the "foundation stone" of 95% of ALL the conflicts on internet gun forums.

WE moderators can crush that "foundation stone" by 'nudging' members to QUALIFY their comments about "facts" that they do not have first-hand knowledge of. By doing so, we do about all that can be done to prevent incidents like this recent one between Alain and Andy.

Paul

[davidlt89]

first off, I don't condone I guess what Andy did. I don't think that trying to form a "sect" was appropriate. That being said, I am sure he felt in a corner, people do "crazy" things when in a corner. WE have all been there! I am not going to "think any less" of him because he made a mistake, we all make them!!
He has been on here for 10 years and this is the first time it has been an "issue". I can't refute any information he talks about, especially with MILSURPS becuase I don't know anything about them, and honestly, they interest me as much as pulling my own fingernails out! it would seem if this was such a problem, it should have been addressed long ago! It was not apparently.
Next we have the issue of "experts" who are "shunned" upon on THL but some seem to be acting as "experts" as they refute information. would it not been a lot more profitable to actually post the correct information with a simple "rebuke". Fact is, no one likes to be told they are wrong but it can be done a correct way and everyone "wins".
Fact is, there was a fire started, and it got attended to to late. that is as much my fault as it is any one elses! God tells us that we should not have even a "hint" of lust in our lifes, and as for THL goes there should never be a hint of someone elses beating someone else done, and we let it go! and here we are.
I understand Andy has a choice to stay, he is indeed making his own choice, I respect that. I believe he was asked to stay, but that will remain to be seen.
So, I agree with Paul in putting something in place so this does not happen again. I am probably the member that knows the least about guns, ballistics, and history of, so I don't know what to do. but I am open to suggestions and you can bet your glutes I will enforce it!!! God Bless.