Reticle Gradation Choice - MoA or Milliradians

[gitano]

Which reticle gradation would you choose, given the choice? You can comment without voting, but PLEASE, if you vote, provide your rationale for the choice.

Paul

[sakorick]

I'll pick whatever is comparable to the Zeiss Plex Z-20. No confusing lines that confuse. Just a very basic crosshair.

[gitano]

I've never owned a scope with an "mrad" reticle, but I'm considering it.  The value, as I see it, over the MoA gradation is the simplicity of "doing the math". Of course, this is the argument for using the "metric system" of units made by all of its proponents in every application. The counter-argument by those that oppose that system of units is that here in the US, with Americans, there is no 'intuition' for what a centimeter or meter actually translates to in 'real life'. I have some advantage over the 'Regular Joe American' in this regard having been effectively indoctrinated (AKA brain-washed) to the "SI" system, in my scientific training.  (Systeme Internationale - which is French terminology, which is sufficient reason to object to its use on that merit alone). Nevertheless, I don't THINK in SI units. Meaning I can do the math but I ALWAYS translate to "real" measurements once the math is done. I'm not inclined to that 'exercise' in the hunting field. HOWEVER...

As it is true for EVERY place that "metric" and "British" (or "American") units are used, the only REAL difference in the two systems is a SCALAR. PERIOD. SI unit proponents try to claim the higher ground by denigrating the SOURCE of the SI units. A straw-man objection AT BEST. Once one uses "thousandths" of inches, (instead of 1/16ths for example), and ACKNOWLEDGES that in this modern era, the source of the original unit is no longer relevant, the 'value' of the SI system fades significantly, and even on occasion, it is more cumbersome than the non-metric. But I digress... Let me return to "in the hunting field" and "SCALAR".

What the fact that a scalar is the only difference between the two systems means, is that PROPORTIONS ARE IDENTICAL. Therefore, if I sight my scope in with a "dot" type reticle, AND I know that with "this bullet" at "this MV" the bullet drops "two dots" at 200 yds/m, it doesn't make a tinker's dam whether the units MARKED ON THE TURRET are in MoAs, mrads, or numbers of corn kernels. The PROPORTIONS are ALWAYS THE SAME. The ONLY time the markings on the turret matter are at the range when you are sighting in, or if you are a long-range sniper, (of people OR big game animals), and you want to "fiddle" with the settings "in situ".

So... That is WHY I'm even thinking about getting a scope with mrad markings/units on the turrets. I am, as of now, not yet convinced that the mrad "advantages" outweigh the "new trick" that this old dog would have to learn.

Paul

[gitano]

There's a helluvalot to be said for KISS, Rick.

Paul

[recoil junky]

My newest Vortex ( first focal plane, 6-24X50, 30mm tube, side focus) Diamondback is in milliradians. A prairie dog is 20-25 cm tall (8-10"+-) so π×√5✓%÷62 means he's  . . . . . . . . . 342.66 meters (just kidding)

No I'm not quite used to it yet, but it's very clear, adjustments are precise and repeatable ( not that I jack with scope adjustments once set) and it  has their VIP warranty.

Anyways, I have no preference really. It depends on the situation.

RJ

[sakorick]

RJ, if you miss a Prairie Dog nobody would care. If you miss a once in a lifetime Buffalo because you were fiddling with 2 turrets in 20 degree temperatures just to get that perfect shot when the perfect shot is 20X20 and he's gone when you look back up..............  KISS!

[recoil junky]

Yes, that's why in the other thread I recommended the 4-12 Vortex Crossfire II with the BDC reticle. If you're on 4 or 12 or anywhere in between it doesn't matter and it should handle the recoil.

RJ

[gitano]

Outside the 'philosophical', the issue is now moot. I had some errands to run today, (which means I have to leave my house/grounds), and I decided to stop by Sportsman's Warehouse and have a look - 'in the flesh" as it were - at some Vortex scopes I was considering. They were out of the one I wanted to look at.:angry: The guy behind the counter said, "That model is hot for some reason".

So I continued to look over the selection of the Vortex scopes they actually had in stock. My eye stopped on one spec'd at "6.5-20x44". It was priced at $299.99. Hmm.


"Is it a 1" tube?" I asked.

 "Nope. 30mm", he said.


Hmm...

"Lemme have a look at that one, please." It of course 'looked good' in the fluorescent lights of the store. I asked if my Vet discount 'worked' on this item and he said "Yes, as long as it is not otherwise discounted." Which translated to an $18 discount making it $282.

I said, "I'll take it."


"Oh yeah, does it come with lens covers?"

 "It does."


OK.
 
Got up to the checkout counter and showed my Vet ID card for the discount. Then I looked at the total: $249.99, and no Vet discount. It was already discounted 17%. :) Turns out, (and the guy behind the counter told me this before I bought it), it's a "generation 1" model. Which means the reticle is in the "second focal plane". Which in turn means that the magnification of the reticle changes with the magnification of the scope. The scope is 'calibrated' to standard "mil dots" only at 14x. I decided that I could live with that (although, I gave serious thought to NOT purchasing it for that reason). The price, even before the 17% discount, was too good to pass up under the circumstances. Here's the scope at Vortex's website. Note the price! https://vortexoptics.com/catalog/product/view/id/1371?vortex_reticle=984
 
So... I have yet a third scope for the .416. You'd think I'd be at the range sighting it in Wednesday, right? Wrong. In the spirit of j0e_bl0ggs' "If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all", the Parks highway is closed from MP 71 to 99 due to a raging forest fire. The range is located at MP 94.5. I called the RO this afternoon and he said that the range is closed today (normally open on MWFSS), and it will likely be closed on Wednesday. SHEESH! However, the scope is mounted and bore sighted, so all it will require is the road to open.

In the spirit of "count your blessings"; an "undetermined" number of structures have been consumed by the fire, and hundreds of people have been forced to evacuate their homes. The "bad luck" of not being able to get to the range pales in comparison to the tragedy some folks are dealing with. Prayers would be in order if you are so inclined. It's already a bad fire, and it headed for 'civilization', not the 'wilderness', so many more homes are in harm's way.

News at 11...

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Prefer 1st focal plane mrad dots n clicks, second focal plane means that the dot spacing are only correct at one particular mag setting.

1st focal plane -

[gitano]

I too prefer first focal plane reticles, but that wasn't an option within the constraints I am operating. Among the factors I considered was the 14x "calibration magnification". That's about what I like these days. Anywhere from 12 to 18x seems to be about right for me. Therefore I elected to go ahead and make he purchase even with the 2fp reticles.

First, keeping the magnification "fixed" at 14x is not a big problem. "Keeping it simple", the actual yards of change/error with changing magnification is fairly small out to my max of 300 yd. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Thought this was about choice?

[Paul Hoskins]

All my life I have used scopes with plain or duplex crosshairs & never had a problem. I had scopes with BDC dots but found them to be rather useless if different loads were used giving different velocities. I have little or no reason to change scope settings after the gun is sighted in regardless of range. I simply use Kentucky windage for bullet drop. Few people can judge distance or bullet drop like I can. Varmint hunters & golfers are most likely the best at judging distance with varmint hunters being tops. I see NOTHING wrong with plain old quarter inch per click scope adjustment. There's no need for anything else. ......Paul H

[gitano]

Thought this was about choice?

Well... If you want to be technical, the "choice" was about reticle type, not focal plane. I saw this thread more 'discussion' than exclusively choice. Had choice-without-discussion been the goal, I woudln't have asked for comments.

Paul

[gitano]

So I "did the math", and per my promise to post some numbers:

At 14x, (the calibration magnification), and a 200 yd zero, the first "dot" below the horizontal cross-hair would be "on target" at 325 yd. At 18x (the highest I am likely to set it for an animal at 300-ish yd), that same dot would be "on target at 299 yd. A difference of 26 yd at 300 yd. The difference in trajectory between thinking the target is at 299 and it is really at 325, is -8.2" vs -11.8". A difference of 3.6"... at 300 yd. Enough to 'think about', I suppose, but nothing a little Kentucky windage couldn't reasonably account for. I keep two things in mind when 'splitting these hairs' -  1) Hunting isn't competitive target shooting, so missing the 'bullseye' by 3.6" at 300 yd is not a big deal, and again, 2) a bison is a BIG target. Furthermore, the above is the 'worst case scenario'. The error only decreases as the range-to-target decreases.

In the time between now and the hunt, (AND after I get this scope sighted in), I will attempt to memorize the "subtension table" for the scope at magnifications between 10x and 18x. OR, more likely, I'll figure out the factor to use to 'do the math' for any mag off of 14x. I have to reiterate though, that 14x is "good" for my old eyes, so I'll most likely be setting the scope on 14 and not fiddling with it unless I really need to. Like a very SHORT range shot of under 100 yd, or a shot longer than I am willing to say I would take as I sit comfortably in my armchair and it's not March 3rd, 2020, the last day I can hunt.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Use the EBC app for the new scope - it will give subtension value at any mag.