More mad, murdering muslims

[22hornet]

I wonder how many of the innocent victims the Aus. cops shot...

I really hate that paramilitary look they use.

Answer to the first one, that will come out in the After Action Review. At this stage though none.
 
 Second, that look is not only very daunting but also serves as PPC /PPE for the individual. Body amour, flame resistance overalls, goggles, respirator, etc.
 It's funny that you mentioned that as in the UK Police don't generally carry firearms do they?

[gitano]

Now, finally, we are getting to the point that people probably agree on.

Don, your initial comments were clearly aimed at the Australians, NOT at how to deal with MMMs regardless of nationality. It's pretty difficult to argue against shooting MMMs that take hostages. I certainly would agree that shooting them "as soon as possible" is the best, and appropriate action. However, the "nature" of the hostage SITUATION - not the hostage taker - should be assessed before engaging lethal for ONLY FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE SAFETY OF THE HOSTAGES. Anyone that perpetrates an ARMED hostage-taking, should expect to be killed. I do not suggest 'negotiating' with them, or "fact finding" about them, or doing ANYTHING that increases the probability of a hostage being harmed. PERIOD. BUT...

The police in the US have an "US vs THEM" attitude. They care FIRST AND FOREMOST about the "challenge" to their AUTHORITY, and they do NOT put the safety of the hostages above PROVING that they are not to me "messed" with. They DON'T CARE - other than the risk of bad publicity - about ANYONE ELSE.

I don't think "who" or "what" or what religion, or ANYTHING ELSE the hostage taker is matters one whit. To me THAT is immaterial. Let me use another 'situation' to clarify my point. I have TRAINED my family that when I am away on a trip and someone "invades" the house, they are do the following:
1) Upon becoming aware of an intruder, they are to YELL for them to "Leave the house". Once. It has been demonstrated OVER AND OVER that burglars - people intent on stealing your stuff - DO NOT break into houses that are occupied. A "burglar" will leave a house they thought was unoccupied. If an intruder remains in a house after finding out it is occupied, THEY ARE WILLING TO HARM THE OCCUPANTS.
2) If the intruder does not leave the house immediately, my family members are to either get to a bathroom and lock the door, or lock the door to the room they are in. EVERY room in my house is 'armed'. There is NOTHING in a bathroom that is worth stealing. Therefore, if the intruder comes to the bathroom door, my family member is to yell at them to LEAVE. They are NOT to say "I am armed", or "I have a gun", or "I will shoot you". They are to yell "LEAVE", ONCE. If the intruder continues to try the door handle or talks or does ANYTHING other than LEAVE, they are to empty the firearm into the door. NO "NEGOTIATIONS". KILL THEM.

That describes my "attitude" about hostage takers. Give up or die. BUT, I do NOT condone the STUPID "COWBOY" attitude or BEHAVIOR of the American police. And I will not castigate another nation for having a less aggressive "attitude" than the one American cops have.

As for the "militarization" of the civilian police. I think the "solution" is pretty simple actually. I would not allow the police to have ANYTHING that the general public was not also allowed to have. If the police get fully automatic weapons, the public gets fully automatic weapons. If the police get teargas, the public gets teargas, if the police get armored vehicles, the public gets armored vehicles. I suspect the police would have a serious "attitude adjustment" if they had to face "equal force". As a general RULE - more common that NOT - the police in the US are THUGS and BULLIES. The militarization of their equipment simply reinforces that VERY BAD attitude.

So I don't give a tinker's dam what race or religion a hostage taker is. A policy of "kill them as soon as IT IS SAFE TO THE HOSTAGES" "works" for me. But I'm not going to castigate other NATIONS for their "patience" when we in the US have the exact opposite PROBLEM, and DEAD whether by a cop's bullet or an MMM is STILL DEAD. Given a choice between "nanny cops" and "fascist cops", I'll take the "nannies" every day. There IS "middle ground".

By the way, "social networks" were apparently a PROBLEM for the police in Sydney. If I found out about someone posting police tactics in REAL TIME on social media, (I see a cop sniper climbing a ladder on the building opposite the cafe"), I would prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law for "aiding and abetting a criminal act" including MURDER if a hostage or a cop died.

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

My first comments were actually aimed at anyone who found that the shoe pinched, as we say in Texas, unfortunately, there are plenty of lace panty ninnies in Texas, too.
One just ran for Gov. and got her butt severely whipped but Texas is hardly typical compared to Comiefornia, New Jerk, New Jersey and even Colorado which is rapidly going down the same tube as the left coast, not sure how far Oregon is gone but they are VERY close to a major source of the infection., Sounds as though Washington is rapidly going down as well.
Things are not looking well for the home team anywhere.

[Jamie.270]

The battle lines here are being drawn as we speak.  The Gov wants expanded background checks, and a couple of the hand-wringing ninnies in the statehouse want them too.  Unfortunately, the party of ninnies is in control in all 3 houses.  Although there are many gun owning electors of said ninnies.

But we haven't had a "gun show loophole" for a decade or more, so at least they can't use that catch phrase.

I expect a lead ammo ban battle here too in the next 3-4 years.  We actually have a contingent here that wants to bring condors up here, claiming they were once a native species.

It may not matter much though,  Between the out-of-control cougar numbers and the wolf re-introduction and protections, we're headed for predator pit status, with game herd numbers in some units low enough to question the ethics of insisting on a tag.

The antis have taken a multi-pronged approach here that has been very well funded and is well received by the 4-5 most populous counties.
Which dictate policy to the rest of the state.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

that look is not only very daunting but also serves as PPC /PPE for the individual. Body amour, flame resistance overalls, goggles, respirator, etc.
 It's funny that you mentioned that as in the UK Police don't generally carry firearms do they?

First part of that statement is correct, Its use is for intimidation. The second part was the 'party auto response' - expected.
The only real function as PPE is to hide the identity of the thug. You do not need to be 'all black' to use PPE. I too can invent requirements up and hide behind H&S.

The UK cops generally do not carry firearms but the armed units dress up this way too, pure intimidation and wanting to look tacticool.

It is a fact that the cops want to be paramilitary and want the division - the us and them.

[drinksgin (deceased)]

We have a new outbreak of MMM, in France this time and the MMMs got away clean,  not even a broken fingernail.
France is going to the MMMs anyway, hope some people do put up at least some resistance.

[Jorge in Oz]

Counterfeit religion which breeds violence and fanaticism.

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Yep, sure enough!

[22hornet]

So the preliminary enquiry has been conducted, the coroner will do a more detailed enquiry and hand down recommendations.
 
 It turns out the two victims killed by the gunman, one was killed by a bullet fired by the police which ricochet off concrete and struck her in the chest. This part, if true is a complete game changer when it comes to relying on the police to do their work.
 The other  victim was shot in the back of the head by the gunman as everyone was running out. The word is now that he may not have fought with the gunman as first thought.
 
 Also just to add, the Gov have now declared this a terrorist incident, which now limits the financial responsibility of the insurance companies. :frown

[gitano]

There are some questions being asked regarding the 'facts' surrounding the Charlie Hedbo incident. There certainly were some interesting "lucky breaks" for the "good guys".

Paul