New Varmint Load

[recoil junky]

So, you saw the group with the 300RUM and 110 grain Vmax's at 3720 fps?
 

 
Well I loaded up a couple and shot a 1 gallon paint can full of water then I had to share it with you guys so I grabbed the camers and filled another can and
 

 
I placed the can upside down to maximize the effect and not blow the lid off.
 

 
I fergot to hold low and hit about 1" below the "top" of the can. There was no exit hole, just a small slit where I'm guessing the base of the bullet exited.
 
Now if there were just some prairie dogs to try it out on!!
 
RJ

[Alboy]

Neato

[RatherBHuntin]

yea, that paint can had it coming. I think maybe theirs a couple of watermelons and maybe some 2 liter soda bottles around that have been bad mouthing you:MOGRIN:

[recoil junky]

Gallon milk jugs? It'll have to be Saturday though.
 
RJ

[davidlt89]

gallon milk jugs filled with water!!!!! God Bless.

[gitano]

LOVE those light-for-caliber bullets! Does anyone REALLY think that wouldn't HAMMER a reasonably-sized big game animal?

Paul

[recoil junky]

Up to an antelope maybe. 'Specially if you didn't want to eat it.
 
I don't think it would even make it past the hide on an elk. Might knock the elk down, but it would get back up and have a sore shoulder for a while.
 
I have an almost empty 5 gallon can of Thompson's Water Seal that I think will be the next victim.
 
RJ

[gitano]

I'll have to go back and tell all those dead moose and bear and sheep and  caribou that they really didn't die with one-shot because the bullet should have blown up on the skin.

Personally, I wouldn't choose to use a .30 cal, 110-grain spire-point on an elk, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything smaller. As for eating - I don't eat lungs so I don't mind turning them to jelly. Small, light for caliber bullets, do not 'blow up on the skin'. They go right through the ribs and thin meat between the ribs and destroy -  instantly - everything beyond that without exiting the other side. If shot in the should or haunch - BAD shots - then they do indeed ruin more meat than a similar BAD shot with a bullet that doesn't transfer all of its energy to the animal.

Put a 2x4 in front of that Thomson Water Seal can and watch that bullet "blow up" on an inch and a half of wood - something considerably more substantial than ANY elk's hair, skin AND ribs. A more reasonable 'test' would be a 3/4" piece of plywood, but there will always be somebody that will insist that an elk's skin and ribs are more 'bullet proof' than 3/4 of an inch of plywood.  I KNOW that .30 cal., 110-grain bullet doing 3700+ f/s at the muzzle, WILL, COMPLETELY, destroy any one-gallon container on the other side of a 2x4.

Paul

[Jamie.270]

I still think this load would be just as effective as a satchel charge on anything smaller than your 5gal bucket RJ!
It looks like that bucket had a SC, or at least a hand grenade go off in it!

[recoil junky]

For what it's worth.
 
This bullet is not a "big game bullet" it is a by design varmint bullet. It has a very thin jacket, a pure lead core and a very large expansion initiating hollow point. IMO the three things that make a varmint bullet. By design it is supposed to be driven at high speed (not to exceed 3900 fps) for the soul purpose of rodent/varmint destruction.
 
We've had these "light for calibre" discussions before and while I'd agree with you on some bullets I can't agree on this one. When I say it would work on antelope that you wouldn't want to eat that is what I mean. This particular 110 grain bullet @ 3700+ is going to do a TON of damage to more than just the lungs. You'd probably lose both front quarters (Not that there is a lot of meet there anyway) and most of the backstrap.
 
While I've never killed a caribou, sheep, bear or moose and you know it, I have killed a butt load of whitetails, mulies and elk with everything (I own)from a .222 up to and including a 45-70. (rifles only not handguns) Enough that I don't feel the need to "kill one every year" anymore, but more than enough to know what kind of bullet I want to use.
 
So. That being said this little experiment will continue with the suggestions of THL members. 1 gallon paint cans will continue to die in the manners suggested until the supply is exhausted and we will then go on to milk jugs and 2 liter soda bottles.
 
First up will be a one gallon paint can "hiding" behind a 2X4.
 
As soon as I get the Doc's release to do so. I'm recovering from a nasty concussion right now and shooting and I quote "anything bigger than your 22 is forbidden"
 
RJ

[gitano]

.30 cal, 110-grain spire-point

Not a hollow point, BUT STILL, let's wait on the 2x4 test.

My favorite 7mm RM bullet is a 115-grain, 3500 f/s MV,  thin-walled, large-meplat hollow point, "varmint" bullet by "design". Only once in it's long history of use have a lost any more meat that I have with a "hunting" 7mm bullet. On the other hand, I have lost 10s of pounds of meat using "by design" "hunting bullets", because of through-and-through shots that weren't the perfect broadside shots.

I continue to point out that I don't care one whit what bullet people use. I just refuse to stand by mute when the reason for not using a particular bullet is based on some advertising propaganda ("design") instead of first-hand experience.

Let's see what the 2x4 experiment 'says'.

On that note: When I first started reloading the 115-grain Speer HP for my 7mm RM, I was out punching paper one day and decided to shoot a tree and see what would happen. It was a poplar a little over 5" in diameter. It was about 30 paces away. At the shot, nothing happened. As I walked up to the tree, it slowly toppled over away from me. When I got up on it, I saw that the back 2/3rds of it had be blown off. Hmmm... I picked another tree of essentially identical diameter and shot it with one of my 162-grain "hunting" bullets. I strongly suspect that tree is still alive as there was simply a 7mm entrance hole and maybe a 1" exit hole. I could not push the tree over at the 'wound'.

I still didn't 'believe' in the light-for-caliber bullets as a viable hunting bullet, as after all, ALL the "experts" said that such bullets would "fail" citing various reasons, when used on big game. I didn't believe in the excellence of such bullets as "hunting bullets" until I was FORCED to use it when I forgot my "real" hunting bullets on a 10-day fly-in sheep hunt. The  115s were the only cartridges in my pack placed there "just for fun after I shoot a sheep". That experience on a 300-lb ram was 'the proof of the pudding'. Many, many animals shot since have NEVER left me disappointed in the terminal performance of that bullet. NOT ONE.

I'm not trying to talk ANYONE into using ANY bullet. I DON'T CARE WHAT BULLETS PEOPLE USE. HOWEVER, I simply can't stand by mute when reasons like "will blow up on the skin" and "will ruin meat" are stated as if fact. They don't "blow up on the skin" and they don't ruin any more meat WITH WELL-PLACED SHOTS, than ANY other bullet, and in my personal, first-hand experience, ruing LESS meat than so-called "hunting" bullets.

A simple "I don't choose to use them for hunting big game" will get  complete silence as response from me. A "I don't use them for big game because they will either blow up on the skin or ruin a lot of meat", is most definitely going to generate a "comment" from me, and it has NOTHING to do with trying to convince anyone to use light-for-caliber bullets. It has EVERYTHING to do with the truth of first-hand experience, and not one or two examples, but many 10s of personal examples plus many more 10s of watching others do it. I ONLY use a 115-grain HP in my 7mm Mags; a good friend ONLY uses a 110-grain spire-point from his 300 Win Mag. Together we have more than 100 years of hunting in Alaska. Neither of us has A SINGLE complaint about the terminal performance of our so-called "varmint" bullets on big game. I am a serious "meat hunter, and Dan is a MUCH more a serious "meat hunter" than I am.

Paul

[recoil junky]

We've talked "in person" on the attributes of light for calibre bulets and are of the same camp. Not the same side of the tent maybe, but of the same camp.
 
 I think this .308 110 grain Vmax is in another realm than the 115 grain .284 bullet. Let me "expound" on my theory.
 
First, by design the .284 bullet has the .308 bullet out-classed. It has a higher BC and a higher SD, both of which make it a "better" bullet IMO.
 
Second, by velocity the .308 bullet is already at a loss. That additional 200 fps may not "be much" but I think it's enough to push it over the edge, so to speak, to make it a viable hunting bullet. In a lesser .308 calibre rifle it might very well work and by lesser I mean less initial velocity.
 
That's the end of my theory phase mianly because this freaking concussion won't let me think much past two.
 
Now about the velocity limit set by Hornady: In "conversations" with team Hornady they limit the velocity to 3900 fps. Whether the bullet comes apart due to actual forward speed or rotational speed I don't know. I would ***-u-me it comes from together due to rotaional speed.
 
I used Hornady's 50 grain SXSP bullet in my .222. It had a maximum velocity of 3400 fps. In a .222 it worked great, but when (from the same twist rate barrel) pushed to 3500 fps from a .223, the bullet was often a grey mist in the air.
 
RJ

[klallen]

We've talked "in person" on the attributes of light for calibre bulets and are of the same camp. Not the same side of the tent maybe, but of the same camp.

interesting read, r j .  talking with ya in the past about your interest and intrigue in shots of a longish nature, i didn't peg ya for a fella who'd be going light for cal or admonishing the attributes of doing so.  
 
sweet varmint load you have there.  accurate little number.  should pop a prairie dog easy enough.  looks like it'd be near identical ballistically to the .243ai i'd love to have my ruger vt converted to, using the 65gr. v-max.  i gotta get some feet under that project.
 
 
 
k

[recoil junky]

Oh I like light bullets for hunting. While the "bullet of choice" for the 7mmRem mag is a 160 I use a 150, but would use a lighter bullet if what Ive got worked upi wasn't so gol-durn accurate. Not saying a lighter bullet wouldn't be just as if not more accurate, it's just hard to change from a combination of things (that aren't supposed to work :D) that work and try sometihng else. I use 165's in the 30-06AI. Now for all intents and purposes that isn't really a light for calibre bullet either, but it's a good bit lighter than the rifle was intended (or designed) to shoot. 165 grain Hornady spire point boat tails shoot under 1/2 moa and kill elk dead.
 
I'd be all for using 150's or 165's in the 300RUM if it would shoot them, which it won't. It's very picky and only shoots 180  and 200 grain Accubonds or 180 grain Swift Scirrocos well. It will shoot 150 grain Sierra flat base bullets quite well but not as well as Accubonds or Scirrocos. It flat refuses to shoot bullets like Barnes TSX's, Partitions or A Frames.
 
I was really surprised (and quite pleasantly) when I shot the group I did with the 110's withouth a whole lot of fuss and load development. It was Hornady's "suggested" load so I trid it and viola it works well enough I may not mess with it.
 
I have noticed a bit of a ding on the crown of the 300RUM barrelwhich may or may not have anything significant to do with it's aversion to some bullets. That will soon be remidied by my machinst/gunsmith/saddlemaker friend. He's built several tack driving 30 calibre magnums and wants to have a go at the crown on mine. We have an agreement. I supply him with all the 45-70 bullets he can shoot and he does my gunsmithing and supplies me with a bit of leather now and then so we're both happy.
 
RJ

[klallen]

morning, r j .
 
from the sounds of it, it doesn't really look like you're using the fly-weights of a caliber class.  that's kinda what i was refering to with loading practices drifting to the light end.  140's are a classic big game hunting weight in .284 .  even if you dropped to that weight over your 160's in the rem (if they did shoot), it wouldn't be a jaw-dropper.  my .280ai. and 7mmrum have done very well with them over the years.  while there are certainly heavier, i don't consider that loading light.
 
"I'd be all for using 150's or 165's in the 300RUM if it would shoot them"
 
why ?
 
 
 
 
k

[recoil junky]

morning, r j .
 
"I'd be all for using 150's or 165's in the 300RUM if it would shoot them"
 
why ?
 
k

Because I have a lot of them
 
RJ

[klallen]

Because I have a lot of them :biggthumpup:RJ

gotcha.
 
just wondering if there were some performance reasons i was missing.
 
 
 
k