The Springfield: the perfect military rifle

[Brithunter]

Huh sakorick,

Sorry Germany, no cigar. Has a war ever been won with a Mauser?....ask Egypt.

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     Errr Israel also had Mausers. Waht about the Spainish Civil War, The 2nd Boer War, the Chaco war.................. err Rick you get the picture. Mausers have been on the wining side as well.

     

There were 4 Varients of the 03 over all those years which essentially only changed the shape of the stock and of course the 03A3 changed the rear sight to a peep. Contrast that to the Lee Enfield which had to be redesigned about every 5 years it seems. The Lee Enfield had it's great points like the 10 shot magazine and a reputation for durability. But the rimmed ammunition was a pain:frown and the bolts were not interchangeable even among family members:( ...(you see Paul, headspacing problems can be a problem!).
 

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   Hmm have you been at the Wild Turkey Rick? the Lee Enfield only needs a bolt head change to correct head space and the Rimmed ammo worked just fine to! as to constantly being redesigned. Hmmm is that wacky baccy I smell? Bearing in mind that the Lee Enfield was adopted :-

1888 (December) Magazine Rifle Mark 1 (became Rifle, Magazine, Lee Metford Mk1 on 8th August 1891) approved.
 
1895 The Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle Mk1 approved for service. The first of the Lee-Enfields.
 
1902 (December) Approval of the Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle Mk1 (SMLE).
 
1916 Short Magazine Lee-Enfield Rifle Mk 111* approved.
 
1926-1935 Rifle No.1 MkVI “A” “B” and “C” patterns trialed.
 
1939 Rifle No 4 Mk1 approved.
 
1944 Rifle No 5 Mk1 approved for service.
 
1969-1970 L42, L39 and Envoy 7.62 NATO rifles introduced.

    Now that is the history of the British Lee rifle including War time expediants like the No1 Mk111* which had short cuts to speed up production. The SMLE was adopted so that mounted troops could use the standard rifle and not require carbines and that was in 1902 the year before the Springfield was adopted by the US, and 14 years after the Lee was adopted by the British Army and with L42 rifles being in use up into the 1980's the Lee had been in service with British forces for at least 92 years.

    And as for the best target rifles well in the 1908 London Olympics the shooting was not won by the USA team. Ahhh I just did a search and found that my statement is not quite correct as the USA won 2 or their 3 golds in shootign events. Those being:-

Team military rifle
 
Team pistol
 
    The USA won a total of 6 medals 3 being Gold, 2 Silver and 1 Bronze.

   I will have to see if I can find ot what rifles the GB team was using. Locically it should be the Sht Le, will also try to find out teh course of fire and distances shot over.

   Now somewhere I have some photos of the actual shooting teams who competed in those Olympics which I took of the framed ones in the Bisley NRA Museum. They also have one of the Springfields 03 rifles used along with a Swedish Mauser from those Olympics Great Britain won 6 Golds for shooting at the same Olympics and a total medal haul of 21.

[sakorick]

Now BH....don't get pickey. I counted 11 varients the last being the 2A/2A1 the last of the breed. No I wasn't into the JD....this from rifles of the world
...One notable feature of the Lee bolt action was that the bolts were not interchangeable between different rifles of the same mark Each bolt must have been fitted to its respective action, thus making the production and in-field bolt replacement more complicated. The insufficient headspace problem on the pre-No.4 SMLEs was solved my manual sandpapering the respective bolt-head, and since the No.4 rifle, there were 4 standard sizes of the bolt heads, from which armourer could select one, most suitable for the particular action.....that sounds a little unscientific. From my limited research, the rimmed ammo was a problem and required great care in loading.

But we are quibbling here aren't we? I would like to get my hands on a Savage but I've never seen one. I would also like to add an Eddystone to the arsenal but haven't seen a decent one in years. Shoot, we could start a new thread on the Eddy....a very interesting rifle. There were 2 million made....where did they all go?

I still like the Mauser the best.....If we (allies) had the KAR98 and Germany had the 03A3 or the SMLE....there wouldn't have been the slightest change in the outcome. I'm babbling. Regards, Rick.

[kombi1976]

You're darn right you're babbling, Rick!
You want to take me up on the 03's service record?
You just admitted yourself that the M17 saw stacks more WW1 action than the '03.
The SMLE was ALSO used as a sniper rifle well into the 70s and even the 80s.
The Afghanis also used them to devastating effect on the Russians.
And if there were so many problems with loading 303 rimmed ammo why did the SMLE have the highest average rate of fire of bolt action service rifles?
Trained soldiers could maintain an accurate rate of fire of 30 shots per minute, 3 times the amount of rounds in the mag, so I'd hazard a guess that loading 303 rounds wasn't that much of an issue with a little practise.
And changing bolt heads in the field with 4 basic sizes seems like a sensible idea if you ask me.
And if we're going to get into who designed what, as you did refering to the Lee as an American design (which it most certainly is), the '03 is a glorified Mauser, which of course is a German design.
And finally can I point out that I did not suggest the SMLE is the perfect service rifle.
All had their flaws.
My point was that it was the major service arm for a large section of the allied forces as the M98 was the main service arm for a significant section of the Axis powers.
If you want to be serious about perfect military rifles the AK47 would have to come the closest.
Ok, it isn't inspiring or pretty or suitable for sniper work but it's arguably seen more conflicts than any other arm in the 20th century.
A mate who works in Tanzania has seen models used by the police and private security firms that have all the bluing rubbed off and the buttstock long gone and yet they're still going strong, even in the corrosive tropical climate there.
So perhaps we need to be more specific about what perfect means, eh?

[sakorick]

You're darn right you're babbling, Rick!
You want to take me up on the 03's service record?
You just admitted yourself that the M17 saw stacks more WW1 action than the '03.
The SMLE was ALSO used as a sniper rifle well into the 70s and even the 80s.
The Afghanis also used them to devastating effect on the Russians.
And if there were so many problems with loading 303 rimmed ammo why did the SMLE have the highest average rate of fire of bolt action service rifles?
Trained soldiers could maintain an accurate rate of fire of 30 shots per minute, 3 times the amount of rounds in the mag, so I'd hazard a guess that loading 303 rounds wasn't that much of an issue with a little practise.
And changing bolt heads in the field with 4 basic sizes seems like a sensible idea if you ask me.
And if we're going to get into who designed what, as you did refering to the Lee as an American design (which it most certainly is), the '03 is a glorified Mauser, which of course is a German design.
And finally can I point out that I did not suggest the SMLE is the perfect service rifle.
All had their flaws.
My point was that it was the major service arm for a large section of the allied forces as the M98 was the main service arm for a significant section of the Axis powers.
If you want to be serious about perfect military rifles the AK47 would have to come the closest.
Ok, it isn't inspiring or pretty or suitable for sniper work but it's arguably seen more conflicts than any other arm in the 20th century.
A mate who works in Tanzania has seen models used by the police and private security firms that have all the bluing rubbed off and the buttstock long gone and yet they're still going strong, even in the corrosive tropical climate there.
So perhaps we need to be more specific about what perfect means, eh?

Well, young man, you have your favorite and I have mine. AK47???? go back and look at the original criteria. By the way, just how many 03's have you fired on the range? Regards and still good friends, Rick.

[kombi1976]

This claim is based on caliber, reliability, length of service, ease of operation, sights and accuracy.

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Well, I'm reading the criteria but I'm still not sold.
And I've only shot one on the range, Rick.
You say military rifle.
There are other things that affect the practicality of a service rifle.
Capability to provide useful cover fire, weight of ammunition, recoil, overall weight and length, effectiveness in close range melees.
Bolt action rifles are superb for long range battles where the aim is for people to pick off their adversaries one at a time.
They're also reasonable in hand to hand stuff where a smack in the face with a big piece of wood is as good as a bullet.
And they're almost unparalleled for sniper work.
But there's a reason why the Springfield, the Garand and even the M14 were replaced.
I personally love the FN FAL although I've never shot one thanks to our @#$@X&* politicians but even it has its faults.
The AK, as uncouth and rebellious as it is, comes closer to an all round military rifle.
No it isn't convertable to a sniper rifle and it's range isn't astounding but if I HAD to choose something to outfit a team it would be hard to go past.
Light weight, cheap, uncomplicated, easy to get ammo for.
For close to medium range work, and let's face it most wars are fought like that now, it's a winner.
While you've loaded up your 2nd round with the Springfield the guy next to you with the AK has fired 2 short bursts.
Ok, so they're not as accurate, but when the whole world has exploded and there are people running everywhere you're more like to hit more of them with 6 reasonably directed bullets than 2 that need a little more care to be very directed. :undecided:
Let's hope we never need to test it, eh?
And I'm still your mate too. :D

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

     Hmmmm picky am I . Well Rick my friend I do not consider the Indian No2 Enfield even worth considering so naturally forgot all about it . I would not give one house room so we will leave it at that .

   Now as for bolts being interchangable as far as I am aware they should be as they are made to a Pattern which is what the Pattern Room was all about. It kept the sealed Paterns and made pattens which were used by the factories to check that parts were interchangable. Also it was emery paper or cloth used to rub down the SMLE bolt faces. The re-design in 1939 was mainly to speed up production which is why the No4 to me does not have the appeal that the SMLE does with it's curved surfaces and finer finish :) .

   One reason that I never removed the bolts of my Enfields for storage as the Police would have liked  was the risk of accidently putting the wrong bolt in the wrong rifle. I simply told the Police it was an un-safe practice and they had to chew on it and swallow it raw . At one time I think I had 5 Lee Enfields, I only have two at the moment even though I have 7 rifles in .303, the reason for the changable bolt heads was to allow for head space adjustment to be easily carried out in manufature and in the field by unit armourers especially if the rifle was damaged it's far easier to fit a bolt head than fit a new bolt to some other rifles .

   Oh and Rick if one wanted to collect the entire spectrum of Lee Enfield varients I believe you would need a small armoury as I know of over 40 of them and that does not include the Delisle carbine series and my knowledge is nowhere near complete on the subject and it fact is sketchy to say the least. Entire books are devoted to the subject .

[sakorick]

Hello Kombi and BH. Agree. My point on interchangeable bolts is, that in the field, and in a jam....it might be hard to impossible to find the unit armorer! Many shooters on this side of the pond hace purchased SMLE rifles that look good only to find split cases after the first shot! Speaking of good looking rifles....check out my new thread on military rifle restoration. Jay will probably move it somewhere but I didn't know where else to go. Regards, Rick......pip pip and tallyho!

[gitano]

Has a war ever been won with a Mauser?....

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Yes is the answer, but more importantly, wars are won by men, not rifles. Furhermore, the '03 in all its variations "borrowed" rather liberally from Paul Mauser's '98. And that's a matter of legal record, not opinion.

That said, here's a picture of my 03A4. I have both 'scopes issued for A4 use, as well as all of the sundry 'accessories'.

My Dad got this rifle while he was stationed at Red River Army Depot in '63 - after it was 're-arsenaled'. He may have shot it immediately after he got it but I doubt it. I have not. I have precious little interest in '06s and almost sold this rifle to get cash to purchase a SxS shotgun. Checking into what it was worth is what got me "in to" milsurp rifle collection. (Way better than average stock market performance over the past 50 years.) This rifle will go to my daughters, to do with as they wish. It has no sentimental value and as I've said before, the '06 holds no interest to me - if anything, quite the opposite.

As for "best" - that's simply "fightin' words", and I'll not fight. "Favorite"... now I'll grant ya that.

Paul

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

     Hmmm Paul intersting rifle .

   

    Now Sakorick,

           Split cases in the Enfield is not often due to bad headspace but often due to poor brass or badly stored ol Milsurp ammo. I have had a few cases crack and not always .303 either. I noticed that I had a few cracked necks on some 8x57 commercial brass so it looks likt I may need to anneal them . I have also had case failures in .270 again is was the brass which was marked REM-UMC so we don't know how old it was. Now if a soldier with a Mauser lost his bolt the chances of another matching with correct headspace is slim so that arguement does not wash .................... sorry

[sakorick]

Paul, that is a priceless 03A3. I hope you keep that rifle in a secure location.

BH. Every K98 bolt I've checked in German actions have been within tolerance. Of course, I only mess with Oberndorfs and Steyrs now. Not backing down on this one....SMLE's had big time headspace issues. The 03A3 had interchangeable parts throughout including the bolt.

This will not deter my desire to find a nice 303. I've got time to find a nice one. I always find what I'm looking for when not really looking! Regards, Rick.

[kombi1976]

I'd like to go on record and say that Remington is bad brass, especially if you're forming it for a wild cat.
In the 303/25 I lost 1 case in the first reload and 5 after the 2nd!
These are mild loads too.
I'm pleased I'm not locked into using it like I would be if I shot an RUM.

[gitano]

that is a priceless 03A3.

Rick, thanks for the compliment on the rifle, but "priceless", I'm afraid, is in the eye of the beholder. I'd trade this rifle and all it's accoutrements in a heartbeat for a good SxS rifle or drilling.
 
Paul
 
BTW - In spite of its 03A3 stamp, it is in fact an 03A4. The "A4s" were never stamped "A4". They were simply A3s that shot well, and the armorer 'chose' to pull the sights (front and rear) and install the scope(s). Any "A4" that's stamped "A4" is a fake.
 
Paul

[Brithunter]

Sorry Jay but I have yet to find an Lee Enfield which has headspace problems. I have seen abused and damaged Lee Enfields including a couple that someone had taken a grinder to the Charger bridge and bolt!

  I have seen Mausers with bolt lug set back but again I suspect it was due to abuse rather than normal useage.

[Paul Hoskins]

They all have one common trait I think you can agree on. They are all homely as a cow moose..............Paul H