Military Cartridge Series - 7.7 Arisaka

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Seemed like a good time to put this in so as to co-ordinate with the M38 & M99 Arisaka rifle thread on the other forum.

This cartridge is comparable to the .308 Winchester and would show the same performance on game.

[Mauserfan in TX]

My father in law used an old 7.7 Jap on whitetail a couple of times, He liked the 7.7 as well as the .303 Brit . He felt they provided plenty of knock down without a lot of stiff recoil. He was also a WW2 vet of the Pacific theatre, Go figure......

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

Pretty neat hearin' about that MF n TX.   Sounds like my generation all right.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 'sporterized' military rifle like the Arisaka... when it's done by a good gunsmith!  The problem is that some 'home gunsmiths' really cobble up a job like this and the modification gets a bad rap.

Really well done military conversions are more attractive to me than some factory jobs.

Add to that the ballistic of the cartridge... and you have a great firearm for good conversation over a cup of coffee.  The Arisaka cartridge is not a light weight and its brother (the 6.5) is no slouch either.

I wonder what can be done with todays powders?

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

    Jay I hear you about the good conversions. I very nearly brought an Arisaka sporteried by the firm Gibbs of Bristol but we could not agree a price as the dealer thought it was worth a whole lot more than I did. Hmmm I cannot even now recall which calibre/cartridge it was in now.

   My father often told of how they called the Jap bullets Needle bullets because they were long and thin, I can only assume he came into contact with the earlier 6.5 Arisak's. Seems it was prone to make a lot of mess of a fellow  and he saw aquie a few who that happened to whilst in the Far East seeing as how he went through India, Burmha, Malaya and ended up in Java at Jakarta before going back to Malaya on anti Communist patrols.

[Mauserfan in TX]

6.5 and 7.7 Jap with todays powders, That would be an intresting venture, I would'nt know where to begin. I don't think it would take me long to find out though.:grin:

[kombi1976]

I think that the 7.7, 7.65x31 and 303 Brit deserve a little benefit from the modern projectile technologies available.
Only GS and Woodleigh make premium bullets for 303 cal.
I think a 170gn Nosler BT or Hornady SST would be superb, not to mention a good 200 or 215gn bonded core SBT for long range big game.
The closest bullet available for either is Woodleigh's 174gn Protected Point(mag-tip) but it isn't boat tailed.
I'm not saying that the current bullets on offer for this cal are bad per se but for a calibre which has a lot of surplus rifles it is a tad annoying not to find a wider array of bullets.
The other thing about the 7.7mm is that the Arisaka is the strongest bolt action battle rifle bar none.
Does anyone know what the average operating pressure for the 7.7 cartridge was?
The action, so long as it isn't one of the late production dodgy models, is well up to VERY heavy loads so it may be much more capable than military loads displayed.

[Mauserfan in TX]

i guess i am not to familar with the Arisaka. What is the difference that makes it stronger?

[kombi1976]

Not sure exactly.
They're basically a Mauser copy but the engineering was good.
P.O.Ackley stuffed a bbl full of sand and fired shots repeatedly and the headspace didn't even change noticably.
Every other rifle he tried he managed to blow up, even the k98s, but the Arisaka just kept taking it.
I'm sure other people can explain better.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

    Hmmm I have heard of Ackley's tests however using proof data the strongest action is the Ross 1910 or M10 on which the std proof for the .280 Ross cartridge is 28 Tons. The .300 Win Mag and .270 Win is 20 Tons and 7mm Mauser is 18 Tons .303 British is 18.5 Tons. The original proof fpr 7.62x51 was 19 Tons but due to the stupid target shooters overloading it the NRA at Bisley are now trying to force people to have their Enfield No4 actioned target rifles overproofed at 20 Tons :frown

Oh and a 3" magnum 12 Bore is 3 1/2 Tons.

    Kynoch actually had to produce a .280 Nitro version which was loaded to lower pressure because the .280 Ross was popular and when chambered in a 98 Mauser the action soon showed signs of stress  so the reduced load was made and sold. Of course it meant a loss of performance but was safer. I have often wondered how the .280 Ross would perform with modern powders?

[Hunterbug]

My Grandfather has one of these that was origional untill he had the bolt forged and the action drilled and tapped for a scope. I've got brass and I'll probably inherit in when he's done with it.

[sakorick]

I love the type 99. I shoot 150gr Hornadys available from grafs. Go here to see my postal shoot results..http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9159

The action is silky smooth and the bolt was engineered to disassemble with ease. You can still find nice ones with the Mum intact, however, they are getting scarce for under $500. One just sold on Gunrunners last week for $560 and it was pretty rough. The anti aircraft sights are very cool and according to my dad, who flew B-25's in the Pacific during WWII, worked exceptionally well. I love my Arisaka and consider it on par or better than any MILSURP I own. Regards, Rick.

[gitano]

This cartridge is comparable to the .308 Winchester

Let's not get carried away now... :D
 
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[Paul Hoskins]

According to Ackley the reason for the Arasakas strength was it's elaborate heat treatment. If it didn't need to be heat treated it wasn't. In other words time and money wasn't wasted on heat treating unless necessary. ..........Paul H

[gitano]

I don't know how true that is, but what is true is that the Japanese are considered among the world's best sword makers - primarily due to their almost magic abilities in tempering steel.
 
Paul

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

According to Ackley the reason for the Arasakas strength was it's elaborate heat treatment. If it didn't need to be heat treated it wasn't. In other words time and money wasn't wasted on heat treating unless necessary. ..........Paul H

Just on looks alone I hope this is correct... as this would be my first selection for 'beating into ploughshares'.

[Paul Hoskins]

My sentiments exactly Jay. I've seen better looking plowshares. That is why I never owned one that I recollect.  ...........Paul H

[sakorick]

Just on looks alone I hope this is correct... as this would be my first selection for 'beating into ploughshares'.

Jay and Paul....You guys have nearly 5000 posts on this forum and I have relished for the most part your wisdom and grace. Having said that, both of you are so far wrong on the Type 99 it isn't even funny......plowshares?????? Give me a physical break. Have you looked at my postal shoot group? Have you ever owned or fired one? Have you looked at the innovative features ot the Type 99 such as the AA sights?

I find your posts disturbing. Please PM me if you care to know why. Regards, Rick.

[sakorick]

I don't know how true that is, but what is true is that the Japanese are considered among the world's best sword makers - primarily due to their almost magic abilities in tempering steel.
 
Paul

 
Exactly. And that process was used on their improved Mausers.....the type 99. Thank-you Gitano. Regards, Rick.

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

It's not necessary to exchange PMs 'rick.    My statement qualifier was: " Just on looks alone ".

Have I ever owned or fired one?... gunsmith remember?  I've customized, owned, sold & traded so many rifles (modern & milsurp) that I cannot honestly remember them all.  There was a time when we really burned for the annual gunshow to come around... and it was rare to see a modern firearm on the tables.  We lived for the milsurps as platforms for custom rifles.

I'm simply a member here and, like you, I'm entitled to my opinion on what's good looking and what is ugly.  My studies of the wars up until Vietnam with regard to small arms leaves me feeling there is a tie between Japan and France for plain ugly looking firearms.

As far as strength is concerned... I agree with Ackley with regard to the Arasaka and its strength.  With regard to the bolt action rifles of Japan and their utility... I believe that the Japanese were moving (their version) of heaven and earth to put a semi-auto into the hands of their troops.  I've seen a copy of the Garand as produced by Japan.

I imagine there are many items I find good looking that you do not... and you are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am.  Please do not get upset because we fail to agree with you.

[sakorick]

It's not necessary to exchange PMs 'rick. My statement qualifier was: " Just on looks alone ".
 
Have I ever owned or fired one?... gunsmith remember? I've customized, owned, sold & traded so many rifles (modern & milsurp) that I cannot honestly remember them all. There was a time when we really burned for the annual gunshow to come around... and it was rare to see a modern firearm on the tables. We lived for the milsurps as platforms for custom rifles.
 
I'm simply a member here and, like you, I'm entitled to my opinion on what's good looking and what is ugly. My studies of the wars up until Vietnam with regard to small arms leaves me feeling there is a tie between Japan and France for plain ugly looking firearms.
 
As far as strength is concerned... I agree with Ackley with regard to the Arasaka and its strength. With regard to the bolt action rifles of Japan and their utility... I believe that the Japanese were moving (their version) of heaven and earth to put a semi-auto into the hands of their troops. I've seen a copy of the Garand as produced by Japan.
 
I imagine there are many items I find good looking that you do not... and you are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am. Please do not get upset because we fail to agree with you.

Fair enough.....The Japanese didn't have any Walnut so they made do with what they had. The term "Ploughshare" burned me up I'll admit. I own a remarkable piece of history, an Arisaka by they way, that has outshot all my SMLE's, 03A3, both Swedes, 03, Garands, Steyr M39, M98 Mauser, Finn Mosen, and OBTW......I think it looks and feels just fine. Ploughshare indeed:Banghead: . And yes, it's ballistics mirror the .308. Call it what you want, however, I have never called any of your rifles plowshares and I never will. Regards, Rick.

[Jay Edward (deceased)]

I have never called any of your rifles plowshares and I never will. Regards, Rick.

Don't be so quick on the draw Rick.  You haven't seen all my rifles and handguns.  I built one out of a piece of barrel and parts from a hardware store... remember?  It might qualify as a ploughshare.:undecided:

Currently I am considering building one more cartridge rifle in a military cartridge.  I've been thinking about using a Sako action.  (You don't have any strong feelings about that action, do you?:grin:)  The last Sako I built was on the L-61 action and it was chambered in .308 Norma Mag.  Unfortunately, I let a fella talk me out of it.  (I was holding out firmly but he finally got out his wallet and started showing pictures of his wife and little children.)  Actually, he was headed for Alaska and said it was all he ever wanted.  He promised me he would never sell it and when I saw him a few years later on a visit to Montana... he still had it and refused to sell it back to me.  Man, was that a good looking rifle!

I stocked it in AA Classic, put a simulated leather buttpad on and topped it off with a Leupold 3x9 in Sako rings.  It had 6 or 7 hand rubbed coats of tung oil and a really deep blue.

The rifle shot less than an inch at 100 yards and took out a very fine Mule Deer for me.  I wonder where it is now?

[sakorick]

Well Jay, you are going to need deep pockets to pony up for a Sako action:Banghead: ......they run about as much as the whole rifle. I have been searching for years with zero results. Good luck, Rick.