klallen

[gitano]

I don't think it is hyperbole to suggest that THL isn't 'flourishing". Dissention, derision, sarcasm and repeated, intentional attempts to be 'ornery' do not help us.

The truth is that if this site was "mine", klallen would have been banned a LONG time ago. Because his petty attempts to provoke are focused on me, I have restrained myself from "engaging" his childish behavior. However, I believe most sincerely that he represents a 'clear and present danger' to the health and well-being of THL. Consider his last two posts in DavidLT's thread "No dice!" in "Factory Ammo and Reloading".

These kinds of posts do NOT help an ailing THL.

Klallen understands clearly that there is more than one person here at THL that doesn't "appreciate" his "attitude". Yet he persists. I am seriously beginning to wonder if he isn't just staying here in an attempt to harm THL as much as he can.

I would approach him privately, but his childish attitude toward me guarantees that he would take any comments from me as a personal attack. I hate to see the likes of him hasten the demise of THL, but I truly believe that if he is allowed to continue on his current path, THL will suffer greatly for it.

The internet is not a "democracy". THL is not an arm of the government that is bound by law to protect "freedom of speech" regardless of the harmful nature of that speech. THL is like someone's "living room", where guests get INVITED in. If they can't behave, OR if their behavior is harmful to the family of the people whose living room it is, or their friends, then the guest is TOLD - not asked - to leave.

I would urge someone - not me for the reason stated above - to have a SERIOUS talk with klallen and tell him that he should leave. I'm NOT suggesting that he be told to "straighten up or leave". He should be told to leave.

He has TWICE BEFORE had little temper tantrums and "left" THL in a huff. I thought the last time he left was his last. I was genuinely disappointed to see his return. He has at least two 'strikes' against him. I'm not talking about "warnings", I'm talking about incidences of bad behavior that are detrimental not to the "rules" of THL, but to its very existence.

If 'you' think I am taking his incessant jabs at me personally, you are very mistaken. I am way past worrying about the likes of Korey Allen. I assure you with all the insistence that I can muster that it is my concern for the future of THL that prompts me to write this. If you disagree, please explain how you see THL's future with Korey Allen as a member.

Paul

[recoil junky]

He's been sent a nice but strongly worded PM. I'll share all the quibble that comes form if here.

Allen

Klallen, one member of the "the gadget crew" as you so lovingly call them has more experience reloading than you will ever have. You really need to think before you type because you are getting on some people's nerves with your constant barrage of "my guns are expensive and my brother is a gunsmith and my brother has proprietary cartridges so that makes me an expert"  

It's been suggested that you be banned for a while and maybe forever. I've pushed hard for that not to happen, making excuses for you and trying to really read your posts, but I'm not sticking up for you any more. I'm not going to try to read things in your posts to make myself understand just why some people think their poop don't stink.

RJ

[recoil junky]

Here's his responses:

afternoon, r j. appreciate the e-mail. suprising as it is if it's actually coming from the admin group of the site. i guess administration's gotta do what they feel is best for the site.
 
in my defense, i will say i've spoken "nothing" but the truth regarding things done and seen? if that's a bannishable offense, so be it.
 
further, if we cut through all the nonsense, i would imagine there's only one admin member calling for my bannishment. a little fello from alaska. i've had nothing but pleasant conversation with every other admin i've come into contact with on any number of topics. so while you choose not to mention names, i won't dance around it. there really can be no other. and to be honest, an trumped up issue with gitano wouldn't suprise one bit. or his small band of cronies, either. we butted heads before the last site crash when he was just another member spewing pie charts, bar graphs and large words ment to wow the membership. problem was he ran into someone who wasn't impressed with that stuff. i like substance. not fluff. as suuch, he offers me nothing useful. if he's the one you're refering to with more useful handloading experience then i, lol, please. while i don't necessarily view handloading as a competition as to who knows more, i also know that i'm not simply throwing stuff together by luck. something i would hope you've recognized over the years. that's probably where the problem lies between he and me. i've made it very clear to him his uselessness to me. and he doesn't like feeling useless.
 
i will admit, i was concerned when i came back here after the crash and saw he had been made an administrator. only because of our past history. grudges are a hard thing to control. regardless of that, his promotion didn't change a thing regarding how i viewed him. he was a nobody before. he still is. i get he's your friend and all, but understand, it was a mutual disrespect we heaped upon each other. until we started ignoring each other, that is. and then throwing barbs at each other while talking around the other. please, don't believe this is one-sided. in all the years i've been here, i've yet to gleen a thing from his experience with the small stuff he wildcats, the rifles he throws together or the handloading work he's done. why would i? now, i would hope you or admin wouldn't construe this as arrogance but from my perspective, it's simply fact. how things are. there's a world of experience out there to be had and other people certainly can be in possession of it.
 
does it really offend that i shoot decent rifles (on occasion) and have a brother that's an "actual", known gunsmith and not a back yard wood shop posser? does it really offend when i offer experienced related to these things? why would it offend when i report what i'm doing and what i've experienced politely and in a truthful manor? it doesn't seem to offend when anyone else relates their experiences. if someone gets on and asked for help or opinions, it almost sounds like you're suggesting you want one answer to be coming in from alaska and all other opinions ... just keep to yourself. or are you suggesting that just "i" keep my opinion to myself?
 
and specifically about gitano and offending folks, when he gets on here and suggests that you're not actually "handloading" unless you're using quickload, why doesn't that offend anyone? or when he suggests you're not an experienced handloader interested in precision work unless you're using this gadget or that gadget. why does that not offend anyone? or worse yet, when he gets on here and professes to the entire site that those working in the profession of gunsmithing don't even understand the basic principles of screwing a barrel properly onto a receiver. yet ... (of course) ... he does. this doesn't offend anyone? this royally pissed me off. further, he offends noone when david gets on here and talks about frustrations he's feeling with oal's and gitano's comment is, you might as well "quite" or start doing things my way. that offends noone. that's the crux of it. do it my way or you're not doing it the right way. no sir. this is what started our beef years ago. and it's what continues to place him right at the bottom of useful members here for me. it doesn't offend anyone his sarcasm laced comments directed towards anyone who doesn't cower to him. he can talk around me playing like i'm not even there yet still getting the barb in that he desires, yet, when i turn the tables back on him in a similar manor, he has the floor to run to the admin room and scream for bannishment.

And

if you've got an entire row of administration looking to ban me for being nothing more then helpful and honest while reporting factual experiences with things others might not always get to play with, then do what needs to be done. if it's just your buddy from alaska grinding a stone because he's in a position to do so, then there's a much bigger issue at play here. i don't spend a moments time worrying about him. he understands this. he fully participated in past activities that spawned my attitude towards him. he can't cry about it now. you've been here a long time. i can't imagine you haven't seen these things, however, if you've been blind to these facts from the past, i guess i'm glad to have the opportunity to open your eye's to them.
 
r j, i've got the utmost respect for the admin of this site, in general. for the membership, too. i've enjoyed my time here sharing information. i conduct myself in a manor that's polite, helpful and informative. as i said at the start, if that's a bannishable offense, it's your site to run. and i leave you to it. you gotta understand though, when gitano bites, i will bite back. i don't care if he's got the title or not. titles don't change man. they just make the weaker ones more power-hungery.
 
my last comments on davids oal post is what i'm presuming this is all about. i just found it funny how gitano pushed and pushed and pushed for david to "need" an oal guage both publicly and probably by pm's and phone calls to (because he needs to make his point very clear) and then when david found it wasn't working as flawlessly as it would with the extractor in the way, with gitano being on the site many times, there was no quick comment of assistence publicly. like i said in my post, i'm assuming it was all done in pm's and phone calls because, low'n behold, it isn't easier to take oal measurements with a single shot and extractor in the way with an oal guage. gitano was wrong and the method used and described by my and hunterbug was perfectly correct for the situation. again, all his years and years of experience amounted to lost time and problems. when we had it handled in the beginning. to be honest with you, the only person i was concerned with offending with that post was sakorick because he really was the only other person that uses an oal guage. and he didn't even suggest it's use to david. and i made it a point to write him this morning in pm to ensure i was not looking to offend. there's a level of respect between the two of us that can probably be derived by our communication on the open forum. his message back to me was very positive. very friendly. i mentioned about why the post was written. the side issues and side chatter from the useless people. his advice, ignore it. the "issue" isn't worth the time. which is bascally what's been happening.
 
sorry for the length, r j. you've never had to read into "any" of my posts to get the intend. if i was barbing gitano, it was obvious, and deserved. if he's crying about it now and saying there's a whole heap load of folks similarly offended by it, short of drinksgin and that new goon from england who's taken in with gitano and has become his little whipping boy, i'd love to hear who else there could be. as i said earlier, conversation with the rest of the board's been polite and friendly.
 
do what you will, my friend. my fate's in your hands. you don't know the whole story, but you know a little more then you did before, i'd imagine.
 
 
 
k

To which I replied:

First, the "little fellow from Alaska" is not the only one who has problems with your attitude nor is he the one who "told me" to contact you.

So I'll go forward from here and if I may break down you reply to the paragraphs individually.

1. Telling the truth is always good. It's how you go about telling said truth that can get you in trouble. Like I said it' all in how you present yourself to others. We're all equals here and when someone tells us in a high-toned way that his rifles are very expensive therefore better than ours it ruffles feathers. Quickly.

2.  Now like you we didn't hit it off right away, but I could see that he had some very valid points. I've had the pleasure of meeting "the little fellow from Alaska" in person. I've shared beer with him and we've talked rudimentary reloading. I've shot some of his guns and he's shot some of mine. I'm no number cruncher, but I do understand more and more as I go along. My wife is very math savy and when I had question about what  "the little man from Alaska" had "spewn" I'd call her over and she'd 'splain it to me. I have called gitano a few times and had him 'splain what he'd posted and it helped a bunch. Some of us are not impressed by numbers and truth be told they don't mean much to me except when they are on my paycheck, BUT with that said I have respect and quite a bit of it for people who can do sums, division and multiplication. I have trouble with the checkbook so it's been taken from me.

If gitano offers you nothing but fluff, then we'll leave it at that.

He's not who I am singley referring to as the one with more useful reloading experience. There's lots of old farts on here that I'd like to sit down with and pick their brains.

3. That's your problem not mine. Sorry to be so blunt, but I say what I mean.

4. What I am getting at here is simply this. When you start telling us about how expensive your rifles are and how accurate they are because they are so expensive is where I and others start to have trouble believing you. I freely admit my most expensive rifle is not my most accurate. The actual cost of the rifle has little to do with it's accuracy.

The fact that your brother is a "well known gunsmith" where you come from has little to do with the fact that some of us "posers" might know a thing or two about gunsmithing. We just don't go spouting off about it like it's supposed to impress everybody else. It's how you word your responses.

 By all means share what you have, but don't be so arrogant.

5. Quickload is a non-issue. It's a tool that some have chosen to use along with many other tools to make reloading easier. I have had gitano "run me some numbers" when I got frustrated with my 300RUM (my most expensive rifle) Having someone  who is willing to share information is a good thing. Whether or not I (or anyone else) have/has all the gadgets to make "quality handloads" is also a non-issue. I've got some rifles that are probably benchrest accurate and I don't have the "gadgets" that other guys have. Does that fact make me less of a "quality handloader" in gitano's eyes? No, he and others here have seen the tools I have and the results I get with them. What (I think) he's throwing out is what works for him. I'm not defending, just making an observation. I have seen the posts you are referring to in David's thread and I have my own ideas that I will share sometime soon. They will be ideas to be tossed around by all.

More later.

RJ

Now, Korey sent me another pm which goes like this:

let's let the cat out of the bag then. my only other association with mods and admin has been nothing but positive.
 
 
1. i have more factory rifles then custom, r j . when the heck did i ever talk in a greater then though attitude about any of my rifles. even my customs. i can't remember mentioning expense to anyone. i wouldn't as that's kind of a private thing between me and my gunsmith. i don't advertise that stuff. and i certainly don't yell at the top of my lungs that mine is better then yours.
 
2. i would imagine if we sat down and had a drink, talked, shot each others guns, you'd have a very different view of me, as well.
 
 
He's not who I am singley referring to as the one with more useful reloading experience. There's lots of old farts on here that I'd like to sit down with and pick their brains. fellers are taught at an early age to respect elders. and i do that. but handloading is one of those wonderful hobbies where you don't need 70 yrs of experience to know what the heck you're doing and do it at a very high level of precision. this comment really left me scratching my head.
 
3.  don't even remember what i said in paragraph 3. i'll take it whatever i said, you don't care. good enough.
 
4. again, i can't even remember ever mentioning the expense of my rifles to anyone. i've talked about customs and their performance but it's as much the handloading practice as the quality of work the smith does putting it together. what's the offense in that? i've posted pictures with pretty much everything that i do. you don't believe? how am i making that up?
 
The fact that your brother is a "well known gunsmith" where you come from has little to do with the fact that some of us "posers" might know a thing or two about gunsmithing. We just don't go spouting off about it like it's supposed to impress everybody else. It's how you word your responses. i mention my brother in my strings because i don't want to give the impression that "i" am the one doing the smithing. i'm giving credit where credit is due. more importantly, i'm not taking credit for something i haven't done. why is that a bad thing? why is this forum construing that as a bad thing? yes, between you and i, i would drop 5 grand on a rifle my brother put together ... because he's got the credetials to back up the product. you wouldn't find a sole who'd spend $600 on a rifle put together by any of the good folks here at handloaders bench. that doesn't mean the rifle won't shoot. it means they don't have the credientials to back up the product.
 
By all means share what you have, but don't be so arrogant. so then, how do i be less arrogant. i don't even know who i'd have interacted this way with on this site. i've always entered a conversation with the general membership with an air of sharing information. who in the heck thinks i'm arrogant, other then those i've confronted directly and intentionally? you want me to say my rifles are less accurate then they really are? cause all i do is report accuracy, usually with pics. you want me to make myself to look like a handloading rookie? would this make me more likeable? and more likeable to whom? i don't even know who i'm supposed to be impressing on the site or who's complaining about me, save for one, of course.
 
5. quickload is indeed part of the issue. gitano does not look at himself as an equal to anyone on this site. if you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself. regardless, he does not see you as a threat. your relationship is not bread on years of contensious banter, r j . you said it yourself, you've had drinks with the guy. you think i'm expecting a fair assessment of the situation? i don't know how many times an insinuation has been made on this site refering to quickload being the only real way to put a quality handload together by him. if not said directly, then in his round about way that he loves to use. and you all put up with it. and i'm the one being arrogant. i do not put up with it. someone questions what i do disrespectfully, they can expect the same.
 
More later.
 
RJ

[/QUOTE]
 
To which I replied after realizing I'd made a grievous error:

I'd like for you to give me a call. No, really.
 
970-629-3378
 
I think we need to talk in person about a few things. Morer than just what's going on at THL.
 
Allen

Korey did call yesterday after noon and we had us quite a chat. First I apologized. He said that wasn't really necessary but after how rude I was, I felt it was and insisted.

We then discussed at length the "trouble" he's having here at THL. Yes he shoots long range custom rifles, but only because his brother builds them. We talked about the "ethics" of long range sniper type hunting and we came to the conclusion that "if the shot is not there" neither of us is going to take it.

We talked about his brother's website. Yes it's about long range shooting and hunting. I got to wondering if that's what some people here are having problems with. Not many of us here agree with that sort of thing, but is that why "we" don't like him? If you practice and have the "equipment" for that sort of thing then why not. I have taken a few (what I consider) long range shots, reported them here and no one batted an eye. No one.

He's hunted  "high fence enclosures". Now while I don't totally agree with that, where else in the U.S. are you going to hunt impala, ngali (probably nowhere near how it's spelled), kudu or water buffalo??! He's posted the results (of I believe it was him and his father) of a Nebraska elk hunt. He paid for that hunt and is it really any different than one of us paying for say a Texas whitetail hunt? You know darn well THAT is going to be a "high fence" hunt. Is a 10,000 acre "ranch" in Texas any different than a 10,000 acre "ranch" in Nebraska?

We talked about reloading. He doesn't consider himself an expert any more than I do. He got started reloading at a very young age just like some of us. So he's only 40, does that mean his practical reloading experience is any less than those of us who are 52, 60, 70? He's got some very good points in some of his threads on reloading and shooting.

We also talked about where he's from. Great Falls. Hey!! I been there!!! We talked about hunting.

Me, "Well where did you go antelope hunting?"

Korey, "Out on the "Broken O" ranch."

Long awkward pause . . . .

Me, "Do you know Dan Freeman?" (He's foreman of the Broken O and I've known him for over 20 years)

Korey, "Why yes, he's the one who writes out the permission slips, he's a great feller."

Me, "Dan and Tina were good friends of my parents when they (my parents) lived in Augusta."

Now the world is getting really small. We talked for the better part of an hour getting the feel for each other and I came away with a different understanding and respect for the "kid".

I have just one more thing to say. Let's leave him alone. Let him have his say. He's pretty harmless if you ask me and . . . . . we just might learn something.

I did.

Allen

[gitano]

You will know them by their fruit.

It wasn't "impala or nilgai or kudu or water buffalo" that he was taken to task over, it was elk. And NO! A high fence elk hunt in Nebraska isn't any better than a high fence white-tail hunt in Texas. It's a high fence hunt regardless of where it is and what species it is. Essentially, he lied by trying to make the "pet and shoot" about something that it ABSOLUTELY wasn't. He got caught by Hunterbug on it, and he started "explaining". Trouble was... the elk he shot had a ^%(&^%&^%)*&^ LIVESTOCK  TAG IN ITS EAR! More importantly, it was his representations of that hunt that galled OTHERS, not me.

The REALITY is Korey is a liar. Not a big liar and not a criminal liar. He's an EGO liar. The type of liar he is doesn't matter to me, I simply have no tolerance of liars. THL is not even close to the only forum he frequents. He is "known by his fruit" elsewhere.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that he be banned. However, in my opinion THL doesn't currently have the 'fortitude' to put up with the kind of incessant provocation that he INSISTS on adding to EVERY post I make. It isn't subtle, and it is unpleasant FOR OTHERS. The ones that have to witness the incessant petty BS. It's aggravating.

Consider this: If you had a choice of spending your time somewhere where one person was always extoling his own 'excellence' AND trying their best to argue with someone else there, would you want to spend time there? I wouldn't. The truth is, the only reason I spend ANY time at THL now that he is here, is out of the desire to keep THL alive.

You'll notice that most of the long-timers have started fading. Note when they started fading. Not all started since Korey came back, but some have. Even if they were fading before, they are fading faster now. The point is: His presence here is not a positive force, it is a negative force.

A couple of months ago, Rick (Sakorick) suggested that I "give him a chance". "He appears to have changed", Rick said. Rick called me up the other night practically spitting nails he was so ticked-off at Korey. Rick said, "That's it. I gave him CHANCE AFTER CHANCE, and he's just an (%(*&."

There are people in the world that we would "tolerate" on a normal day-to-day basis. They annoy us and are aggravating, but they are tolerable in the context of all the "bad" things that we encounter day-to-day. Now imagine that your child is in the hospital with an illness that saps his strength, and if not carefully monitored, would lead to his death. Would you allow that annoying person, the one that by their very presence aggravates at least some people all of the time, IN THE ROOM WITH YOUR SICK CHILD? NO! And you wouldn't, not because the jerk "had it in for your child", but because your child needs all the strength they can muster to fight the wasting disease. They don't need the "negative energy" that the jerk practically exudes. THL is "not well". It will not "get well" if there is a constant undercurrent of petty sniping among ANY of the members.

I have with only VERY recent exception, COMPLETELY ignored Korey so it couldn't be said that I provoked him. He can't stand being ignored by me, so he makes snide, petty remarks THAT FOOL NO ONE.

By the way... WHY is he here? He acknowledges that he has little in common with MOST of the folks here. He has plenty of other forums he can "attend". He is here, because his arrogance and "attitude" has gotten him "ignored" at the other sites he frequents. His only saving grace with the other sites, is his brother. Ol' John, practically the sweetest guy on the planet, told me that if it wasn't for Korey's brother, he - John - wouldn't have anything to do with Korey. WHY IS KOREY HERE? Because he is "ignored" everywhere else he goes, and here, at least for the time being, he has a audience that will listen to his baloney, AND he can make trouble.

Would you spend time where you had little in common with the inhabitants, got chastised, and got ignored? The only reason you would, would be if you wanted to make trouble. (By the way, this is precisely why I LEFT the British hunting forum BritHunter invited me to. I had NOTHING in common with the vast majority of them. One of the ones I DID have something in common with, I invited here.  Korey stays here because 1) he has worn out his welcome elsewhere, and 2) he has a long line of folks willing to "give him a chance".

If he was "disappointed" when he saw I was "promoted" to Admin why did he bother to "come back"? By no means was I the only one that took him to task in the past. SEVERAL others did. I have not once responded to him since he has returned. NOT ONCE. Yet he "imagines" that it is I that  is causing his problems. He IMAGINES all sorts of communications by me with everyone else. The communications posted HERE in the Moderator's site are the ONLY communications I have had with anyone EXCEPT the first PMs and EMails I sent around about his QuickLoad "warning".

There's some "fruit" for you. He was TRYING to make trouble for THL where there was ABSOLUTELY NONE. Why?  Because he didn't and doesn't like the fact that anyone pays attention to me and QL. When confronted about it, he lied.

You will know them by their fruit.

Since you've seen a "new side" of him, you could mention to him that I have had neither email, Private Mail, or telephone conversations with David LeTourneau other than a couple of months ago when we discussed some mutual business ideas. There has been no "backroom" conversations as Korey's paranoia believes MUST be true or else David would never have been so adversely "influenced" by me regarding the "gadget". The only influence I had on David can be seen in the posts I made. Korey imagines nefarious, shady, dealings because that's precisely how he behaves.

You will know them by their fruit.

Regardless of whether anyone believes this or not, I personally don't care about Korey' attitude toward me. I have learned that the best way to deal with the likes of him is to ignore them. It's no more complicated than that.  I am ignoring him. My concern is 99.9% for THL. (The 0.1% of my 'concern' I cannot deny is the tiniest little bit of me that is annoyed by him. :) All jerks annoy me, not just Korey Allen.)

Do not read into my comments ANTHING the sort of "It's him or me." He has NO influence on my presence at THL. Zero. That said, I do believe he has a GREAT influence on the continued existence of THL. That said, I am fine with what 'the group' wants to do. I do not consider myself any sort of "Administrator" except in the context of performing maintenance on the site. Therefore there will be no 'pressure' from me to ban Korey Allen. If "y'all" see no harm in his presence, that's OK with me, but "for the record", I think Korey Allen's continued presence at THL WILL hasten its demise.

You will know them by their fruit.

Paul

[davidlt89]

I was hoping Daryl would chime in and give some input, he truly has a "knack" for handling such things and I have a High respect for how he does. I will chime in later with my "opinions" on the post, just wanted you guys to know I am not ignoring this in any way, shape, or form, I am just at work right now. God Bless.

[recoil junky]

I did mention to Korey that he get in touch with Daryl. I have the same respect for Daryl as David does which is why I told Korey to PM him. Daryl has more tact than I do.

I remembered the "elk hunt" which is why it was discussed over the phone. "high fence hunting" to my way of thinking is cheating, especially when it comes to trophy animals. I might be mistaken, but I don't think animals taken at these "ranches" can be entered in the "record books".  

Is this the hunt in question?

http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9820

It seems there was another one that I remember being more "questionable"

Paul, I respect your views on high fence hunts, but if some fool wants to spend his money on that, then who are we to stop him.

I'm not trying to sway anyone's decision here either.

BUT

I've also noticed a decline in the frequency of visits by long time members. M R Byrd, m gardner, gmoney, hiker, mtsharps, Mountain Mafia and more that I can't think of right off. I'd hate to think that's it's because of one person's remarks, because if it is then by all means that person, sadly, should go away.

I was going to say we all have the same option but we don't really. If we are a "new viewer" we can't hit the "ignore" button.

I'm starting to feel like Chris Farley in "Almost Heroes" as my head is about to explode. I'm going to go play in my shop.

If this post sounds like I can't make up my mind well, I can't.

RJ

[davidlt89]

I've also noticed a decline in the frequency of visits by long time members. M R Byrd, m gardner, gmoney, hiker, mtsharps, Mountain Mafia and more that I can't think of right off. I'd hate to think that's it's because of one person's remarks, because if it is then by all means that person, sadly, should go away.

I can personally attest that some of the members mentioned here did not leave because of khallen or anything that was "forum related". Two members on this list in particular had a falling out which had nothing to do with things associated to the forum. G-money is practically a newly wed and I believe spends time with Barry and what he does. Don (mountain mafia) usually chimes in during ice fishing, and I cannot say I have ever heard much from Hiker, or Mtsharps to begin with. God Bless.

[gitano]

Let me clarify a couple of things:

First and foremost I do not care if people want to hunt in "high fence" hunts. I might even consider doing it under the right circumstances. The fact that Korey does like to do it has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand except that it is an area he "likes" AND therefore is an area of contention with MANY THL members. It is NOT an area of contention for ME.

My "problem" with the particular hunt in question, is that INITIALLY there was no mention of "high fence". There were some 'clues' that lead to suspicions about being "not fair-chase", but nothing until Hunterbug called him on it. THEN there was the typical klallen defensive/aggressive response, and the "evidence" pictures were deleted.

Daryl has shot at least one buffalo at a "pet and shoot". HOWEVER, Daryl did not try to make it into anything it wasn't. It was "grocery shopping" and Daryl made it clear that that is precisely what it was and nothing more. Korey, INITIALLY tried to pass it off as some "great hunt". Pat called him on it, he got huffy, and stomped off. If you look at the REMAINING pictures in the elk hunt thread, you can still see the holes in the ears of the animals taken where the tags were. They were cut off for the picture taking, but in the initial post, one of the pictures actually showed one of the tags. That was what prompted Pat's "pet and shoot" comment that Korey flew off the handle at.

My problem isn't with "high fence" "hunting". It's about lying about it and trying to make it into something it isn't. That's both "fruit" of low moral character, and LYING.

Second, I don't care if people want to be an animal "sniper". It, like high fence "hunting" probably isn't for me, but What I don't like about Korey's long-range "sniping" is that it is NEVER about the hunting or the animal or the country, it's ALWAYS about THE SHOT and what a great shot he is and what a great rifle he has and how much he is above all the other "hunters" that "don't have the skill" and "dedication" to be able to "master" the "special" area of so-called hunting. IN FACT, the opposite is what is true! He LACKS the skills needed to get within range, and instead relies SOLELY on technology to do his hunting for him. He doesn't even realize how stupid he's being when he brags about his "special skills". "Special skills" my elbow! He's the UNSKILLED and doesn't even realize that all he EVER does is BUY his animals. First he BUYS them behind high fences, then he BUYS them with expensive rifles, expensive glass, and of course only the most expensive bullets. The SUM of his "hunting" "skill" is how much money he has in his wallet!

Consider his own words in his initial rendition of "the elk hunt: "At this range the animals were oblivious to us." Those are HIS OWN WORDS. Furhtermore: "Kirby was testing a new lighter ULD .338 bullet from Wildcat Bullets and it performed like a charm." AGAIN, it isn't about the animal or the hunt or any particular skills, it was about "name dropping" and "the shot" and "the bullet".

While I don't care for such sniping, I am perfectly willing to tolerate conversations about it until it becomes, AS IT ALWAYS DOES WITH KOREY, a matter of 'See how special I am because I have special guns and I have special skills and I am special" ad nauseum. It isn't the long-range shooting I am objecting to, it the SHOOTER that presents himself as a complete jerk then, when he gets questioned about the "sniping" or "high fences" he CHANGES the subject to be about the sniping or high fences, and deflects the focus OFF OF HIMSELF.

You will know them by their fruit.

Third, I'm NOT saying that anyone in particular has left THL directly because of Korey. What I AM saying is that he makes the experience at THL less pleasant than it was before he was here, and those whose interest is flagging anyway now have another reason not to participate - it's just plain no fun to be here and "put up with" his incessant sniping of the posts by one member, me, AND  his periodic temper tantrums AND his arrogance.

Ask yourselves if his presence here has an overall "positive" effect on THL or a "negative" one. In my opinion, it isn't even a close call.  And that would be acknowledging that he does actually have something relevant to say now and then.

The man's own words have demonstrated to MANY more than me that he is of low moral character. As he has 'matured' on the web, he has learned to don "sheep's clothing". However, his real nature is impossible for him to suppress for long, and this is demonstrated repeatedly and irrefutably by his periodic, but inevitable, tantrums.

What I would LIKE to see happen is NOT that he gets banned. He will simply blame that on "One Administrator that didn't like me." I want to see happen here what has happened at other websites he frequents. Namely, he gets ignored by more than just one person and he "wanders off". Here, there are a bunch of "nice" people more than willing to give a fellow a second, and third, and fourth and fifth and .... chance, AND there is only one person that ignores him. That's VERY convenient because it allows him to hide the fact that the problem is really about his basuc character, and not a "personal" attack by one person. My desire is not that he get banned, but that he leaves of his own volition. That is precisely why I ask the rhetorical question: "Who stays where they have little in common with the people around them?" I'll tell you exactly who: People that WANT to make trouble.

You will know them by their fruit.

Paul

[rockinbbar]

In my experience, we need to stick to the "terms of service" when considering a ban or a suspension for a period of time.

When you can show repeated violations of the terms of service, then address the infraction from that standpoint.

Narcissists will walk that fine thin line and know how far they can go before being banned.

If a problem with "jabbing" persists with a given member, then it's time to lay it on the line...

1) They are guests here, the same as if they were in our house.

2) If the problem persists, then there is no other action to be taken to keep the peace within the site but to suspend posting privledges on the person that is problematic.

I have tried to communicate with members that tend to be "high maintenance" before. Usually, they revert back to the same behavior that brought them under the radar in the first place. And, when that happens, I'm doubly disappointed because I wasted time with a problem that only had one fix in the first place. You would think I would learn after so many of them went south.

The problem with THL isn't as simple as just one explaination to cover it all.

THL had gone down and suffered reliability issues a few times, and that is the main thing responsible for for the lackluster interest now displayed. We have a few old timers here that still call it home, but by and large, it lacks the new topics and discussions that keep a website interesting and new members as well as old ones revisiting....

FYI~ I'm not a director/vp, or Admin on Predator Masters anymore. I resigned because it was taking up too much time from my work, marriage, and hunting.

I'm also obviosly not an "admin" on here anymore eiether, and niether is Daryl as far as I know. After the last shutdown occured, I don't think either one of us has the keys to the house to perform "admin" funtions anymore. I'm not sure who DOES besides RavenBeauty....

As far as I know NOBODY is approving new members now, and that growth is obviously gonna help bring new blood into the site, and without the new blood, things can go stale.

The focus that Daryl & I tried to keep after SR & RB left THL, was to continue with the way things had been run before that point.  But, after a long period of time after I had agreed to take on the costs of the website, the keys to the 'truck' were still missing for Daryl & myself. RB still had them. So, it became frustrating to say the least when the site goes down and we can't do anything about it.

When the site reconstructed, Paul was made an Admin by RB, and Daryl & myself have no access to the controls at all that are needed to "Admin" a website....Which is fine by me.

There is a lot of knowledge and information posted within the pages of THL that bear saving, but without new life breathed into a site, it will perish as well. 10-12 people posting now and again will eventually get old to even those 10-12 people... And without the keys to the truck, nobody can drive it in a better direction....

Allen isn't sole handedly responsible for the demise, or the decline. But, constant drama does leave a bad taste in one's mouth. So, if you feel that he needs banning for the good of the site, then do away with him.... Obviously SOMEONE has those controls, or this wouldn't even be an issue. And while they are at it, perhaps they could switch my permissions back to "Member" status, and do away with the fake title. I'll probably continue to post or visit, but when ethics of one member becomes imposed upon all the members, it becomes an elite group that is allowed to post without fear of someone getting in the thread and ridiculing them to the point they even want to visit....

If the ethics of one man are made standard for the entire group, then the discussions are pretty limited and dull as well. The formula that drew members to THL, and the success it enjoyed for a long time has changed.

[recoil junky]

I see what you are saying Paul, and please believe me when I say it. He's got my dander up more than once. That's the reason I "reposted" his responses to me so all of "us" could see what he wrote. Maybe I was to quick to forgive. Maybe I was to quick to to "see" his way of thinking, but we did have what I considered a "good parley". Maybe it's the fact he's from Montana, I don't know.

My one biggest fault is that I can get along with just about anybody and try to do just that. I think it stems from moving around so much as a kid and being just that "the new kid" so many times I got tired of having to fight everyone that came down the pike. Let me tell you it got very old after a while. There are a very limited few (1 or 2 or 3) that I absolutely can't stand and refuse to even talk too or about. One is a feller at work, one is dead (Elmer Kieth) and the other I can't recall right now, but it's been a while so the "issue" between us may have been forgotten by both parties.

If we all put him on our "ignore list" to "make him go away" then that's what needs to be done, but then "we" really aren't solving the problem. We are ignoring it. If he needs banned for the common good of THL then that's what we need to do and have someone else who's not on his poop list tell him he's being banned and why.

 I'm going to put on my thinking vest and go back out to my shop again.

Allen

[gitano]

Agree wholeheartedly, Barry. However, I have not the Admin authority you think I do. Mine is EXACTLY what yours is, or less. I have no "keys to the kingdom".

I don't know whether I have the technical ability to "ban" Korey or not, I haven't even checked on that. The reason I brought this issue here is to get consensus on what to do about someone that I see as more harmful than good. That remains my intent.

As I said, I agree with your evaluation of "why" we are here, and your assessment of what the outcome will be if we can't change. I've given up - for the time being - with trying to get THL back "in the flow". My company, Biopar, is literally this week in the throes of being bought and reorganized. If that turns out as I expect it to, I will be in a position to make a real effort to get THL "back on track" WHILE preserving the encyclopedia that is here.

Like you, I fear for the long-term recovery of THL. That fear is precisely why I brought this issue here. Not because I don't "like" Korey Allen, but because low-level aggrivation is harmful to the long-term health of THL.

Paul

PS - We were posting at the same time, RJ.

By the way... I went to 13 different schools for first through 12th grades...

It is difficult to express how much I would 'hate' to ban Korey. That may sound "odd" given my arguments above, but I have been the "jerk" in somebody's eyes more than once, and it ain't a 'nice' feeling. I don't want to be "mean" to Korey because I know how it feels when people are mean to you. I am also willing to accept that others may not agree that Korey represents a "clear and present danger" to the future of THL. That's precisely why I brought this discussion here - so I could hear what others thought. I can be a persuasive "arguer". It is my professional training. However, "winning" an argument doesn't mean one is "right". It just means you were persuasive. I believe that "you all" are fully capable of not being unduly influenced by my 'arguments'. That's why I ask your opinion while at the same time arguing from a specific point of view.

All I really want to try to convey is that this REALLY isn't a personal matter to me. Truly, klallen is a gnat that is easily ignored. On the other hand, THL going away is not so easily ignored.

Paul

[gitano]

I checked. If I can, I do not see how, I can ban anyone.

Neither can I change anyone's status. I can only edit threads and posts, and perform those tasks delineated in the "Thread Tools" folder.

Paul

PS - And I don't care to have any more authority than that.

[davidlt89]

well, most of what "can" be said "has" been said. my initial thinking was to watch and see if he breaks forum rules, there is no way around that if it has been done and cannot be argued. Keeping in perspective, Korey seems to have a real "issue" with Paul. it seems any time Paul gives out advice, he is there to "refute" that advice, and although it is "doctored" up as to be "subtle", it is still there. That being said, I have seen more of that lately and not just from Korey. I am prepared to uphold forum rules and let people know when they are breaking them! I, like Paul, do not want to see him get banned. All to often people "like" korey need attention for a reason, what that is, I don't know. I feel more "sad" for people like that than irritated. Also, I am not trying to throw psychology on anyone as I believe it to be one step away from voo-doo. I don't think Koreys attempts at being noticed, or Pushing his ideas are as harmful to THL as people "doing it back". Again, if no one "bites" then one tends to stop throwing the bait out and becomes bored! I believe Korey could be a "contributor" if he did not try so hard, he obviously has some knowledge, probably more than myself, he needs to learn how to convey it in a proper manner. This being said, bottom line is that if someone cannot follow policy rules, then they are out. Smart, snarky jabs at some are obvious and cannot be hidden, and should be addressed when they are noticed. Then lies our problem is that no one has the "keys". Barry, I thought you and Daryl "purchased", or took on all financial responsibilities for the website? It would seem Ravenbeauty is not going to give those up I guess. I for one would be willing to "take over" the financial responsibilities if full control was handed over to me, but I have PM'ed RB and never gotten a reply. First and foremost, someone needs to have the "controls". People who need to be banned need to get the ax, and for goodness sakes, new members need a way in. One things that seems to garner a lot of attention are threads that involves projects, and we don't nearly have those as much as we used to!!!!! God Bless.

[gitano]

On a side note, one of the "things" about THL that ShadowRider lamented and he stated was the reason he didn't spend much time here was the fact that the place had too many 'projects' and not enough HUNTING stories. I understand his point of view.

He and RavenBeauty didn't start THL up to be another "tecnho" site. There are other sites for that. Unfortunately - REALLY unfortunately from my point of view - my hunting is limited. I try to post "hunting stories" when I have them, but they have been few and far between for me in the last 10 years. In the alternative, I have been able to "get out to the shop" more. As a result, the lion's share of what I have to share is about "projects". I really do wish I had more hunting stories to share, but I don't.

The name of this site is The HUNTER'S Life. Not the gun tinkerer's life.

Paul

[gitano]

I'm not "lawyer". By that I mean I'm not inclined to allow "law" to dictate my behavior other than in the obvious cases where you go to jail. Rather, what I AM saying is that the "laws" governing behavior at THL should not constrain "wise action". Again, THL is not a "government". It does not have the authority to take people's freedom away. Therefore, unlike a government, we do not have the "legal" OBLIGATION to follow "the law" blindly in spite of real harm happening.

Here's an illustration of what I am talking about: I have a get-together at my house. I mention to everyone that there will be no booze allowed. Nonetheless, "Bill" brings a bottle of booze with him. He clearly broke "the rules", so it's easy to 'justify' telling him to leave. However, while "Jim" didn't bring any booze with him, he arrives well inebriated. I didn't make a RULE that nobody could be drunk at my party, but "Jim's" behavior is "unacceptable" in my living room. If I was going to "follow the rules" slavishly, I'd have to let him stay even though his behavior is inappropriate and harmful. That would be stupid.

THL is a "living room" in a public "house". klallen's behavior is inappropriate even if it is not breaking the letter of the THL "law". Action taken against someone, especially when they have violated only the spirit of the law not the letter, should be carefully considered. That careful consideration is what I am seeking in this thread.

Paul