"Now if you made some in 7mm....."

[gitano]

Such was the comment in post #111 of this thread http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16677&page=12

Now that I'm 'taking a breather' from getting all the logistical issues resolved with swaging jacketed bullets, I have had a moment to get "out of the box", and of course I had a 'smack oneself in the forehead' moment. I CAN make smaller-than-8mm ANVB bullets. All I have to do is run them through a Lee sizing die.

Unfortunately for the 7mm caliber, I don't have a .284" resizing die - yet. What I do have are a couple of "30 caliber" resizing dies. While not the desired 7mm, they will illustrate what is possible starting with the 8mm ANVB.

I give you the .30 caliber (0.3083") ANVB


When the 7mm die arrives, I will make some 7mm versions.

The sequence of "squeezes" goes like this: First 8mm, (yeah, I know; "Why would you have to do that?" because it makes the transition to the next die easier is all I can say). Second, the 0.311 die. Last, the 0.309" die which leaves the bullet at 0.3083".

One of the "neet" byproducts of this method is that the bearing surface increases as the diameter decreases. Therefore, I should be able to make some 7mm bullets that are considerably lighter than 115-grains, (I'm thinking 85), that still have 1-caliber or greater bearing surfaces. I suspect I may be able to exceed 4000 f/s with an 85-grain bullet from my 7x300 Weatherby. :D Any time I can exceed 4000 f/s at the muzzle, I have a grin on my face.

I'll post pictures of 7mm versions when I get the 7mm resizing die.

Paul

[recoil junky]

Truly a varmint bullet if there ever was one!!!!

An 85 grain bullet at 4000 fps from the 7X300? Should be able to squeeze 3700 or so from a 7mag!!

RJ

[gitano]

QuickLOad says 3757 is 'easy' from a 7mm RM with a 24" barrel. :)

And akshully, since we're "QLing" it here, QL saya only 3828 from a "factory" 7x300 Weatherby.

I'd prolly have to chrony a few to see what they did out of my rifle before I gave up on 4000 f/s. However, I have long said that the gains realized by the 7x300 over the 7mm RM were NOT worth the hassle of the wildcat. It was fun making it and learning from it, and it shoots like a 'laser', but it's just not that much "more" than a garden variety 7mm RM to recommend it.

Paul

[22hornet]

I'm liking this even more. :D


How much effort do you need to size down .323 to .311? Can you do this in a standard size press?

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Rename;
IAVB
or
ANBGB

[gitano]

The 'sqeezing" for the above bullets was accomplished on my RCBS "JR" press. It wasn't necessary to 'lean' on the press.

That line you see about 3/4 of the way up the bearing surface of the right bullet was caused when I started with the .308 . It was "grabbed" immediately. It wasn't 'sliding' in to the die. At that point I got out the .323 and .311 dies. It went trivially after that.

When I ordered the .284 die, I also ordered a .314 die. .323 to .314 to .308 is a better spacing of step-downs than from .323 to .311. There's is nothing between .308 and .284 over-the-counter.

I seriously doubt I could get any heavier than a 115-grain 7mm version, and probably not even that. But there really isn't any such need as the Speer 115 works great. The 0.035" jacket walls will have to come in quite a bit, leaving not a lot of room for lead. The jacket weighs about 43 grains, and I'm guessing the MOST I could get in with NO exposed lead, would be another 50 to 60 grains.

There can't really be any exposed lead, because I am not swaging a 7mm point. Whatever point the 8mm version has, so will the 7mm version have. As the 8mm is swaged down to 7mm, the lead in the core will be extruded the only direction it can go - to the point. If there was an exposed tip in the initial 8mm version, that lead would simply get pushed forward, leaving the bullet looking like an arrow.

When I get the sizing dies I'll squeeze few and see what they look and 'feel' like. You'll be the second to know.

Paul

[gitano]

IAVB = IS A Varmint Bullet?

ANBGB - Ain't No Big Game Bullet?

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Yup!

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Paul, is the jacket material work hardening when you size it down?
Where are you ordering the sizing dies from, Midway is sold out of a LOT of sizes,seems the lemming run is even spilling over into the cast bullet field.

[gitano]

I have done quite a bit of "squeezing" bullets down as I was trying to get bullets for the old Cape guns and Drillings I have. I have noticed no work-hardening as they are swaged/drawn.

I ordered the .314 and .284 sizing dies from Midway. Those specific ones were "In Stock". Many were not.

Paul

[recoil junky]

I'd be willin' to do  a bit-o-tradin if'n when you get a few 7mm bullets ahead.

RJ

[gitano]

More than willing to, RJ, but let's wait and see what these things look like before we get too far down that path. I'm not sure I can actually make a practical, (and my definition of "practical" is pretty broad),  7mm bullet from these jackets.

Paul

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Thought you would have gotten or made a few more, say .302, .295 or so to make the  transition easier.
I make all mine now, heat treating is rather primitive but so far has worked well enough.
I just keep 3' of 7/8"  cold rolled all thread on hand for stock.

[22hornet]

I was under the impression that you were sizing your already formed .323 ANVB's. But what you are doing is sizing the jackets alone?

[gitano]

Your initial impression was correct. I am taking a fully formed 8mm ANVB and "squeezing" it down to - at the moment - .308, soon to be 7mm.

In my comment to RJ, I referred to "jackets" because of the short length of the jacket and resulting completed bullet, not because I was working only on the jackets.

In clearer terms:

I'm not sure I can actually make a practical, (and my definition of "practical" is pretty broad), 7mm bullet from these jackets.

What I could have said: "I'm not sure I can actually make a practical, (and my definition of "practical" is pretty broad), 7mm bullet from an 8mm bullet made with these jackets.

If I started the swaging process of making a 7mm bullet with these 8mm jackets ONLY by drawing them down to .284" OD from their current .323", MAYBE I could get a bit 'more' from reduction in weight than I can by "squeezing" the finished 8mm bullet.

Drawing these jackets down to .284 OD would mean the jacket wall would thicken slightly - I'm 'guessing maybe to 0.040", AND the jacket would get longer. It would lengthen more than it would 'thicken'. Assuming that the guess of 0.040" is close, the ID would equal

0.284" - (2 x 0.040") or 0.204".

Assuming the jacket length increased by 0.2" (might be a bit optimistic, but I'll go with it for the moment), the heaviest HOLLOW POINT bullet I could make would be about 95 grains. A heavier bullet would require a thinner jacket and/or a longer jacket. But then, there is already a commercially available 100 grain 7mm bullet, so why would I want to make anything heavier than about 90 grains? Until I get some results ON GAME, I will wait to get too far down the "thick-jacketed, light-for-caliber", 7mm bulllet pathway. That said, an 85-grain 7mm has a certain appeal to me.

Paul

[22hornet]

that said, an 85-grain 7mm has a certain appeal to me.
 
Paul

:mogrin:

[Jamie.270]

Paul,
I know you have expressed disappointment in the performance of your wife's 7X57 on game in the past.
Maybe this upcoming 7MM version of the ANVB could improve your perception when loaded in the X57 case too.
@115gr or less, 3k FPS should be achievable, and with that large open HP, the results should improve as well.

[gitano]

Possibly, Jamie.270. The 'problem' with the 115-grain bullet in the 7x57 is the low BC. The common range at which caribou were shot where my wife and I used to be able to hunt was "100s" to "long 200s". The "100s" aren't a problem, but "long 200s" were, in my mind. I don't have any data on terminal performance from the 7x57 out that far because I never loaded any to 'test' them. I never loaded any because I don't like to have novice hunters performing 'tests' in the once-a-year game field, and I wasn't interested in performing the test myself. It is entirely possible that the 115 would have "worked" out beyond 200 from the 7x57, but I didn't have the confidence that it would.

My hesitancy wasn't 'random neuron firing'. There was first-hand experience with other 7mm bullets, and the consistency of that experience with published reports from reputable sources.

The first-hand experience - as you know - was the 100% consistency of the animals running at least 100 yd after being "perfectly" shot - right behind the shoulder, double lung. The shots were ALL - that'd be 100% - pass-throughs. For what I read from Africans, that's exactly what they want. Those pass-through are one of the reasons why they 'love' the 7x57 so much. While I don't care about pass-throughs one way or the other, I HATE 'running' animals. 'Running animals' occur much more frequently with pass-throughs.

So the combination of repeated personal experience with the 7x57 and what I read being consistent with my personal experience, I've developed a 'distaste' for the 7x57 cartridge for Alaska and novices. I still appreciate the cartridge for smaller sized big game, and especially those big game animals taken from a blind at relatively close range (150 and less). The "bottom line" is unfortunately that I have little confidence in the cartridge's ability to deliver "dead right there" energy, and confidence in one's weapon is a very important aspect of Hunting.

Maybe a 'properly' built bullet - light weight, thick jacket, large meplat, and plastic tip for good BC - would change my level of confidence in the 7x57 as a 150-yd-and-longer caribou, black bear, moose cartridge. If I get a 95-grain-or-less 7mm ANVB made, I'll give it a try in the 7x57.

Paul

[gitano]

I just "made" a 115-grain 7mm ANVB on paper, calculated the BC (.335) and did some QuickLOad paper-whipping. The results were encouraging.

The bullet carries 1500 ft-lbs out to 280 yards, and more than 2300 f/s velocity out past 300 yards, with the 300-yd energy at 1435 ft-lbs.

That suggests "good" - no 'running' - performance on caribou out to 300 yards. The difference is the BC. The Speer 115-grain bullet has a BC of .250. Changing that to .335 makes the difference. Of course that 'theoretical' BC would have to be checked for reality, but if reality turns out to be close, the 7x57 with an ANVB might come out of my cartridge 'doghouse'. Put less dramatically, I might get the confidence to load it for my wife for caribou hunting.

In comparison, in the theoretical 7mm RM (strictly QL, no real chrono or pressure data), the 115 grain Speer carries 1500 ft-lbs to 260 yards and has an impact velocity of 2289 f/s with an energy of 1338 ft-lbs at 300 yd. That level energy delivery has 'worked' just fine on sheep at 220+ yards. At 220 yards the impact velocity is 2563 f/s and the energy is 1677 ft-lbs.

In the REAL 7x300 Weatherby with actual chrono data, that bullet has "worked" - dead right there - on caribou out to 319 paces. Assuming the paces were equal to yards, the impact velocity was 2183 f/s and the impact energy was 1216 ft-lbs. BUT... while the caribou didn't "run", it didn't "flop" either. The first shot prevented it from 'leaving', but it required a second shot to drop it. "Acceptable", but not the "bang flop" that I am used to with this rifle and cartridge at shorter ranges. (I have actually measured - on several occasions - my ability to pace off distances, and on a $100 bet and a half mile air-strip I was 3 yards off. That's 6 feet out of 2640. All I had to be was within 10 yds to win the bet.

Paul

[Jamie.270]

I think with the popularity of the 7MM RM since the '60s, the available offerings in .284 have been constructed to suit the velocity of that cartridge over the lesser capable 7X57 and 7-08.

It sounds (reads) like your ANVB could be just the ticket to bring the 7Mauser back into your good graces. :D

[22hornet]

I have pretty much dismissed using Speers 115gn HP in my .280 British because of the low BC. Because of the small case I don't have a lot of velocity to work with. I decide to try Hornady's 120gn V-max first. A much higher BC and I'm hoping that it will work just as well.

[gitano]

Jamie.270 - You may be right about that. I'll have to look into that possibility.

22hornet - I think that is a wise choice. I'm sure you've read my opinion of the 115 Speer for the 7x57, and I wouldn't expect performance in your .280 Brit to be any better. I think the 120 V-Max is an excellent choice.

Paul

PS - A preliminary QuickLoad paper-whip suggests you can get 1250+ ft-lbs at an impact velocity of 2170+ f/s at 300 yd. Pretty good performance from such a 'dinky' case.

OOPS. I forgot your barrel length is 19". I'll redo it and correct the chart below.

Impact velocity still exceeds 2000 f/s, and with that bullet, that will ensure terminal performance per the bullet's design.

[22hornet]

Paul, Am I really going to get 2700fps from a 120gn projectile in this little case? That is way beyond what I am expecting.

[gitano]

Keep in mind that this is "paper-whipping". I have the cases you sent, and I can work up pretty good input information for QL. Once you settle on a powder, AND you tell me what you want the pressure ceiling to be - I used 52,500 PSI for this exercise - we can look carefully at some QL output that will likely be pretty darn close.

At this point, I am thinking 2700 f/s is not 'out of reach'.

Paul

PS - QL says that ADI-2206H will get you to 2700 f/s at a max pressure of 52,700 PSI from a 19" bbl, and that's seating the bullet quite deep. If your chamber will allow a 67%-of-caliber seating depth, 2700 f/s can be reached at a chamber pressure of 52,250 PSI.

[22hornet]

Paul, I'll email you so as to not hi-jack your thread.

[gitano]

Paul