11.7x51R Danish Rem, 45 Danish Remington

[HSM_miner]

Just picked up a new project rifle in 11.7x51R Danish Remington.  It is a model 1967 Danish build rolling block.  I have not done much yet, except to cast the chamber and take measurements and to slug the barrel.  Groove diameter was tighter than expected at 0.4635".  I plan to shoot cast bullets with this rifle.

[gitano]

Very cool!

I have a similar rolling block in 12.*x 51-ish. Interesting firearms.

Be sure to show us some dead targets when you get some!

Paul

[HSM_miner]

The cartridge was developed with a smokeless load which pushed a 380gn jacketed bullet to 1350 fps.  The original 11.4x41R rimfire was a black powder cartridge.  Many on other sites think it sacrilege to use smokeless in an firearm originally designed for a black powder charge.  Pooh I say.  One obviously should use some caution and do their research.  This rifle was rechambered to 11.4x51R Danish Rem in 1896.  In 1889 the 8x58R Kraig cartridge was adopted by the Danes  for the Krag repeating bolt action.  Why the Danes bothered developing a smokeless 11mm cartridge is a mystery.  Many rifles were put into the coastal guard armouries and seen little to no use.  I think it would be easy to match the original velocity of 1350 without worrying much about pressure.  Where to take the pressure ceiling to?  Norma lists 8mm Danish Krag loads with a ceiling of 1950 bar (28282 psi) for rolling blocks.  The average Norma loading pressure were closer to 1800 bar (26107 psi).  I think I would work up to 1800 bar.  Even at 1800 bar paper whipped data (Quickload) shows velocities in the 1800's to 1900's can be possible with my 380gn bullet.  I am inexperienced with loading for straight walled cartridges, however, will be looking for a powder which uses up all of my case capacity but does not go over my ceiling pressure.  There were a few powders which seemed to work well, though I have no experience with any of them: Alliant AR-Comp, Alliant Reloder 10X, Accurate 2015, Accurate 2495, Norma 200, and Vihtavouri  N120.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thank you.

[HSM_miner]

I found this chart of the original 1896 design of the 11.4x51R Danish Remington cartridge.

Cartridge 11.4mm Remington M67

The American cartridge (Remington-UMC) was loaded with 50 grains ~ 3.25 grams of black powder and 385 grains ~ 24.95 grams of projectile of a slightly different shape than the later Danish, V0 378m / s.
The first Danish-made cartridge is 41.5mm edge-lit and has a charge of 0.78Quintin = 3.04gram = 47gr to mimic the American output speed. (The shooting case)
There is a change from American projectiles to Danish designed in '67 when there was a change to Frederiksværk gunpowder. Which was more powerful and stripped the original ball. (Handbook 1868) (Where is more data available?)

The shooting associations are allowed to introduce central ignition (1883-1884) as it will then cost the same as leavers to shoot with (3øre for a recharged centrally lit cartridge against 7øre for an edge-lit). The army's powder charge is maintained and thus the casing must be 45.5 mm long. Initially, holsters are ordered in Germany and therefore they have 6.45mm Berdan caps that were "standard" in Germany at that time. (Where does that standard come from? France and modified firearms?) # 1. The army sells 10 holsters, 1000 finished projectiles and 1000 firing caps as a package for DKK 23.50 to the associations, which have the opportunity to supplement themselves with their own purchases.
After approx. In 1900, holsters were made specifically for the shooting associations with a large Berdan hood on the HL against the normally smaller hood used in the army's cartridges.

In 1883 the charge changed from 0.78Quintin to 1Quintin = 3.902gram = 60gr which gave a V25 of 386m / s at the same time as the display changed (Where is there data on this change?) (If the previous charge fit in the holster, the new one must be strongly compressed!)

When changing to centrally lit, clad and smoke-free, we experimented with a 56mm casing to keep the pressure down. A 51.5mm holster and another type of powder were the final result.

The Sheffield barrels on the American-delivered rifles are of weaker quality than the German (Witten) steel used by the Danes and therefore a weaker charge was introduced marked with a chisel stroke over the bottom.
(From H. Untendorffer Nürnberg

P.PIK Georg Egestorff Linden (GE at anchor) Poul Poulsen In Copenhagen)


When conversion was done in 1895 some metallurgic tests were made on barrel steel. It was found that the Sheffield steel barrels used by Remington were as originally specified but not as strong as the German Witten steel used in the Danish made rifles. That means the Remingtons are rated at a max. of 1200bar ~ 17,4kpsi and the Danish ones marked "Kjøbenhavns Tøihuus" are rated at a max. of 1600bar ~ 23.2kpsi.

[gitano]

Good info. I can't really read the chart, though.

Paul

[HSM_miner]

Well that changes things a bit.  The original design with a 1600 bar max still pushes that 385gr jacketed bullet at roughly 1562ft/sec.  Not bad for a cartridge designed in 1896.  Even with todays powders with a 1600 bar max pressure I do not think we can improve much...I would work up slowly.  The chrony and the target will tell.  

[HSM_miner]

Hope this one is readable with my translations from Danish, and conversions from metric.

[gitano]

You bet! Thanks!

Paul

[HSM_miner]

It has been slow over that last few years assembling dies, brass, custom, molds, etc.  It has been frustrating dealing with pandemic.

My first attempt to resize brand new Hornady 348 win brass to 11.7x51 Danish rem was a failure.  Even with me practically jumping on my rock chucker lever arm I could not successfully get it to full length resize.  They measure .545" at the base near the rim and my sizing die measures a tight .5105".  I will have to rethink my approach in squeezing down that .034" to .035'.
Perhaps take it down in steps.  Annealing?  Perhaps I need a better lube... for the price of the new brass I stopped after the first attempt.  So close, yet so far!  lol

[gitano]

Take it from an inveterate 'squeezer', thirty-five thou is a long way to go.

First and MOST IMPORTANT!


DO NOT ANNEAL THE HEAD OF THE CASE!

That renders the case useless/dangerous/at least 'risky'!

When I have been faced with squeezing things down farther than they "should be", (according to the experts - ptooey), I have used the following procedures with SOME success. And some failures.

1) Plenty of GOOD lube. The OLD RCBS case lube that came in a small plastic bottle with a sort of 'nipple' dispenser was/is good. If you can find any. Whatever you use, use plenty, but not too much. (I know. Stupid advise without some sort of measurement of amount.) What I do is put it on my index finger, middle finger, and thumb and wipe on a "thin" layer. You'll figure out how much is too much by seeing 'dimples' in the case.
2) Screw your die OUT of the press as far as it will go, then screw it back in three full turns. Run the case into the die all the way if you can. If you can't, you're probably out of luck with that die and that press. If you CAN get the press arm all the way 'down', (the ram as far up as it will go), that's a good start.
3) Lower the case out of the die.
4) If you didn't have to 'muscle' the case into the die, screw the die down one full turn. If you DID have to muscle the case into the die, screw the die down 1/4 of one turn, and press the case into the die again.
5) Repeat this process until the case is fully resized.

You may find that early on, one full turn in on the die works, but later as you near the head, you may have to resort to smaller and smaller increments. OR... it may not work. Like I said, 35 thou is a lot to squeeze a case head.

Good luck! And be sure to keep us posted on how it goes.


Paul

[HSM_miner]

So this is how my bad day begins:  I start with a fresh brass, lube it well, and begin to full length size.  Working the brass a bit at a time.  I make good progress getting down to the web area by the head.  Pause to relube then continue.  As I ease the die down I hear snap!  My heart jumps to my throat, oh noooo!  What has let go?  The press?  Quick inspection shows nothing obvious.  I unthread the resizing die and inspect.
I gape in disbelief, as the die had split in 6 places around the mouth of the die.  

I have never had a die fail like this.  I feel almost sick that I did this. These were a pricey die set.  If the web area of these Hornady 348 Win. brass can not be squeezed down, I just may have to take my luck with 45-70 brass and hope I do not blow them up while fire forming.  Either way, this has cost more money than I care to admit.

The shock is wearing off, feeling more than a little annoyed now!:eek:

[gitano]

Bummer.

That's actually not a 'surprise'. Of the failures possible, that's a common one. You have to decide whether the die breaking is better than the press breaking. (What I once did.) You can get forming dies from CH4D. $92 each.

Paul