Making My Own 8mm Jacketed Bullets

[gitano]

How do they attach the tips to the bullet?  Are they just squeezed in there? Pressed? Glued? Bullets swaged around them?

"Yes"... mostly. By that I mean some are pressed, some are 'squeezed in there', and some are swaged around them.

The one you see in the above pictures was pushed in with my fingers after drilling a pilot hole of appropriate size for the stub (tenon) of the tip. I am working on a core seating punch that will form the cavity for the tip tenon. I will then put the tip in the point forming die followed by the bullet. The tip will then be pushed into the bullet at the same time the ogive is formed on the bullet.

Paul

[gitano]

OK - Spent some time today 'getting serious' about making bullets of consistent weight in the form that I want - with and without plastic tips.

The first order of business was to make a new floating punch for the core seating operation. It needed to be profiled to form the cavity for the tenon of the plastic tip. Having made one with a flat tip already, making the profiled one went at least twice as fast. (I now know what steps are important and those that aren't.)

Once the punch was made, I needed to 1) see how it worked with respect to the point forming operation, and 2) determine EXACTLY what weight of core would give me the best grip on the tip.

The trial and error associated with "1" produced some 'errors', but the good news is that I was able to salvage all but one of them. The order of operations is:

1) Cut 0.25" lead wire to 0.5",
2) Swage to 0.489" ('wastes' approximately 2.5 grains of lead in 'squirt' (swaging) die,
3) Seat core in jackets,
4) SLIGHTLY swage bullet in point forming die so that mouth of bullet is too small to allow the widest part of the tip to drop below the edge of the mouth of the jacket, THEN,
5) Drop plastic tip in point forming die and finish swaging ogive.

Here's what they look like;


Note the ones on either end. They were boogered by the extraction pin. The one second from the right end is what they end up like when the tip falls down below the edge of the mouth when the ogive isn't formed a little first.

In this batch of nine bullets, there are 3 "bad ones" and 6 "good" ones. The good ones weigh (grains):

116.3,
115.8,
115.5,
115.5,
115.5, and
115.3

For an average of 115.65. As you can see, the spread is 1.0 grain. I am pretty sure the variation in weight is due to the jackets. I didn't weigh the jackets before I seated the cores, but as you will see later, there is some variance in the jacket weights.

I swaged the ogives completely of the first batch of bullets seated with the new core seating punch. Unfortunately, that made the cavity for the plastic tip too small to receive the tenon of the tip. Not wanting to waste those bullets, I just 'closed' the hollow points up to a diameter I 'like'. Here's what they look like:


You can see the small hole remaining in the three bullets to the right. That hole is present in all seven of the bullets, but you just can't see it in the four to the left. The amount of "closure" on these bullets is considerably more than that on the ones with tips.

As you can see, those three on the right have boogered 'mouths'. That's what happens when a stepped core seating die isn't properly aligned when the core is seated. These will be used 'test' (with VERY small sample size), the effect of deformed noses and "out of balance". The weights on these bullets are (grains):

111.0,
110.8,
109.8,
109.6,
109.5,
109.5, and
109.3

For an average of 109.93 grains. Add to that the average weight of the plastic tip, 4.5 grains, and you get 114.43 grains. Which is very close the 115.65 of the ones above with tips. The difference is the repeatability of setup of the core swaging die. Once I get a bench for the press what will allow me to rotate the handle completely to 'cam over', I should be even more precise than 1 grain from setup to setup.

I also decided to "salvage" the bullets I had made when I had the press in the "reloading" configuration instead of the "swaging" configuration. Here's what they looked like:


Here's what they look like now:


Finally, here are 11 bullets I made before I made the profiled core seating punch. I made these just to mimic the 7mm and .30 caliber HPs of Speer design.


Notice the difference in the amount of lead showing in some of them. Those cores were swaged to uniform weight and length. The difference in "fit" can only be due to variations in jacket cavity uniformity.

God willin' and the creek don't rise, I intend to shoot all of these bullets tomorrow. I'll be looking at muzzle velocities, precision, and what they do to 1 gallon plastic milk jugs.

More when there is more.

Paul

[recoil junky]

i'll be looking at muzzle velocities, precision, and what they do to 1 gallon plastic milk jugs.

Rj

[gitano]

So here's what we've ALL been waiting to see - a 'range report'.

The charge was 62.6 grains of I3031. From the 8mm SLT, QuickLoad (QL hereafter), predicted a muzzle velocity of 3465 f/s with an associated maximum pressure of 52,440 PSI. The seating depth was 0.233" or 72% of a caliber. (I will seat it a full caliber deep in the SST, but the long throat of the SLT required this shallow seating depth.) Cartridge Overall length (COAL) was 3.220" for the black-tipped bullets, and 2.845" for the tipless versions.

I measured muzzle velocity on five rounds. They were:

3491
3515
3519
3527 and
3541.

The above is the order in which they were shot. The last one was a tipless bullet. Average for the first four is 3513. Max spread is 36 f/s. I've seen better, but 36 f/s in 3500 isn't too bad.

Here is the trajectory table based on the average MV and the calculated ballistic coefficients:


As you can see, 1.5" high at 150, and 4" low at 300. Impact energy at 300 is over 1500 ft-lbs, and impact velocity is over 2400 f/s. This bullet meets all of my personal ballistic criteria.

I shot five bullets at the target at 100 yd. Here is the target:


Number "4" was a called 'yank'. (Gotta work on that military trigger a little bit.) Number "5" was a tipless. I didn't want to change the scope setting from the one for the 220 grain Sierra. While these are 'a bit' right, they are right on the same elevation as the 220. That's great, but I don't intend to be shooting these bullets from this rifle much.

This rifle has a barrel length of 23.25". Not exactly what I wanted, but I was using a Carl Gustaf barrel, and since it shoots so straight, I wasn't going to fix what wasn't broken. The SST (Steyr SHORT throat) will be getting a new Shilen barrel that will finish very close to 27". (The barrel that is on it now is a 29.2" Turk milsurp take-off.) That rifle was built to shoot light-for-caliber (and therefore SHORT) bullets. This bullet was made for use in the SST.

From a 27" barrel, QL predicts a muzzle velocity of 3587 f/s. Since that is about 150 f/s faster than the 3465 that QL predicted for the 23.25" barrel, and the actual measured average was 3513, I will assume that the velocity from the 27 " barrel will average something like 58 f/s faster than predicted  - ~3645 f/s. That's smokin'. :D

I forgot that when the kids left the house, we quit buying milk in 1-gal containers, so I couldn't kill any milk jugs. Instead I had to use half-gal juice jugs. Turns out juice jugs are WAY thicker plastic than milk jugs. There is no way to quantify "how dead" the jugs are, but I will tell you this:

1) It was impressive to see the impact, and
2) The jugs exploded before the bullet could make an exit hole.

I measure the plastic on the jugs at ~0.015" thick. It's WAY tougher than milk jug plastic. Here are some pictures of dead juice jugs.




Notice in this one the bottom 'cone' is everted. That is some really thick plastic down there.



I don't think the 'carcasses' can accurately reflect the impressiveness of the impacts. I'll have to find a way to photograph the moment of impact.

So there it is.

I only have about 15 black tips left, so I'll put those on bullets and wait for the Limey 'printed' tips to get here. When I get those, I'll make up "a bunch" and send some to Hunterbug for him to shoot and see if he likes them. I might make up some more without tips. Not sure about that. The calculated BC is pretty anemic. Any one else that wants some can send me a PM.

I got an email from the Alaska Department of Fish & Game today notifying me that I would get an email on the 15th, notifying me IF I was successful in any of the drawing applications I submitted. Maybe I'll get a chance to use one of these bullets on a bison. :)

I am pleased. :D

Paul

PS - Forgot to mention head expansion on brass - ~0.001" :)

[recoil junky]

A short video is the best way I've found to see the impact. I can view them in slo-mo but I'm not sure if you can in a "posted" video.

RJ

[davidlt89]

OUTSTANDING!!!! al ot of stuff is "over my head", but been following along, real impressive!!! God Bless.

[RatherBHuntin]

I would qualify the jugs as "very dead". If the jug was split along every axis and there was an exit, I would say "very very dead". Clearly they are more than "dead" as they evidence severe "bustage" in addition to an entrance wound. Of course, when no solid remains larger than the cap can be found, the designation is "very very very dead".
 
Try dropping a bit of gelatin in there to get more of an explosion, and dyed to make it easier to see. Like RJ said, best way is to video and then screen shot of the impact.
 
Edit:  My original intent was to say congratulations, very impressive results for an ol tinkerer and some home made boolits.  I only hope you had a grin from ear to ear as you were shooting these.  Next thing you know you'll be making your own barrels.

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Glenn, watch what you say, I sent him a book on rifling barrels.

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Cool, it has been a slog, but worthwhile.

Hopefully last batch of 'limey tips' will be printed today.

[gitano]

Barrel making was on "the list" before bullet making was. I was just able to accomplish the bullet making first.

From a distance, 'making' one's own stuff looks somehow better than 'buying' stuff. While there are elements of the whole process of 'making' that are better than 'buying', those elements may not be what 'you' think. To sum those 'better' elements up; learning is the only true 'good' that comes from 'making' your own stuff.

Unfortunately, all too often observers get the impression that the "maker" is somehow a more independent, or self-sufficient cuss. In large part, that is an illusion. Let me provide some personal examples.

One might say that I "made" the 8x376 Steyr Long Throat rifle. That process entailed finding a Mauser military surplus receiver, a bolt, the 'guts' for the bolt,  (firing pin, spring, shroud, etc.), the bolt release for the receiver, the trigger assembly, polishing all of those parts and getting them blued. Then I purchased the reamer for the 8mm SLT chamber. I purchased a barrel from another 'take-off'. I threaded the barrel for the Mauser receiver and then chambered it and installed it. I sent the bolt off to have a 'butter-knife' handle put on it, and drilled and tapped the receiver for 'scope mounts. I bought a cheap plastic stock as a "starter" stock. I purchased a Simmons 'scope for sights. I made the dies for reloading the wildcat cartridge from die blanks I purchased. Ultimately, I have succeeded in "making" the bullets that are the topic of this thread. While superficially that list of things 'done' might look 'significant', let's go through the list and see just exactly what I really "made".

I did NOT mine the iron ore that was smelted and turned into the steel used to make the receiver and all of its parts, or any other of the metal pieces of this rifle. I did NOT mill or forge the receiver from a steel billet. I did not form the rod, drill the hole or cut the rifling of the barrel. I did not mill any of the parts of the trigger assembly or trigger guard and floor-plate assembly. I did not make the reamer that cut the chamber. I did not mine and smelt the brass for the cartridge. Neither did I form the cartridge cases. I did not make the jackets for the bullets and neither did I mine and smelt the lead for the bullet cores. I did not make the extruder that made the lead wire for the cores. I did not make the plastic used in the tips, neither did I make the extruder or the tips. The list of things I didn't make is significantly longer than the list of things I actually made.

In other words, I pretty much didn't "make" anything. If "the lights go out", I could no more make a rifle than I could build a car.

I am reminded of one of my favorite jokes. It goes like this:

At some point in the not too distant future, Man has become pretty good at "making" stuff. He has learned all about genetics, and genetic manipulation and has become convinced that he can 'make' pretty much anything he needs. Therefore he no longer cares to put up with the 'burden' of worshiping God. So, a bunch of the world's leading scientists are selected to go to God and tell Him that He is no longer 'needed', and ask Him politely to "butt out" of Man's life.

God listens patiently, and asks, "So you can make everything you need?" They respond "Yes". He says, "What about life itself?" They respond that they indeed can even create life, without ANY assistance from God, and that they are only more than happy to prove it in a demonstration. God says "Good. Show me."

To start the demonstration, one of the scientists bends down and grabs a handful of dirt to start the process. "Unh, unh, unh." Says God. "Get your own dirt, that's my dirt."

The point is, it is all too easy to get kocky when one accomplishes a goal that has been pursued for some length of time and at some significant effort, as if the achievement is somehow one's own. I can no more "make" a rifle than I can create life. My accomplishment in this endeavor has only been what I have learned. Nothing more.

So, as I inch 'forward' in my "gun making" endeavors - like making barrels and bullet jackets - all I am really doing is 'learning'. I "make" nothing. And if that learning isn't ultimately about how God works in my life, then even the learning is wasted, as it too will pass with me.

The primary 'thing' separating me from everyone else here at THL that might want to "make" a rifle, or bullets, or whatever, is money. If "you" were willing to spend your money the way I have been, then you could do at least as much as I have done with respect to "making" a rifle. All I am willing to say is that I have learned a great deal for the money I have spent, and that learning hasn't really been about 'techniques'.

Paul

[recoil junky]

Unfortunately, all too often observers get the impression that the "maker" is somehow a more independent, or self-sufficient cuss.

 

That's how I'd desrcibe you, except possibly by adding "old"

"Unh, unh, unh." Says God. "Get your own dirt, that's my dirt."

[/SIZE]


RJ[/SIZE]

[gitano]

:D:D:D:D:D

"Rebellious and hard-headed" can often be substituted for "Independent and self-sufficient".

Paul

[22hornet]

Great result Paul. Excellent in fact.  Those results are the work of many, many man hours. You should be proud.

I'm certainly not in a position to take on work like this at the moment, but whne I do, and I do intend to, I'll dig this thread up.

Now I'm waiting for the field report....

[22hornet]

In other words, I pretty much didn't "make" anything. If "the lights go out", I could no more make a rifle than I could build a car.
 
Paul

Not many people are in a position to "make" very much. What you have done is far greater than 99.9% of shooters will ever do.
Even the vast majority of gunsmiths don't "make" anything.

Have you ever watched "Sons Of Guns"? (I hate that show! :angry:) These guys make out that they "make" guns. In fact all they do is bolt pre-manufactured gear onto rifles. The same stuff you could buy from almost any online gun shop.

Don't sell yourself short Paul. This is a fantastic project.

[gitano]

Thanks, 22hornet.

"Sons of Guns" (I hate that show!)

Pretty much how I feel about it too.

Paul