Loads for BSA Martini .222 rimmed

[branxhunter]

As I noted on the related thread in the "Firearms and Optics" forum I am helping a friend develop up loads for his new rifle in .222 rimmed. I reload for my Anschutz .222 and so have a variety of reloading components on-hand.
 
I have only been reloading for around 6 months, and my normal practice is to find that max recommended charge weight for a particular powder with a specific projectile. This is my final charge weight increment of 5 x 0.5gn increments. I then load 4 cases for each powder charge weight increment. This way I can easily mark off divisions in the factory load 20 cartridge boxes - box "A" will have loads 1 through 5, therfore in my reloading note book I can reference the loads as A1, A2, A3 etc.
 
This means I quite often load up a number of rounds, but don't always get a good result. Gitanos comments on OCW and calculations run for other rifles I have been loading for seem to show that I have often been working between the nodes or "sweetspots". My increments of 0.5gn might also be a bit wide.
 
Gitano, I hope I am not imposing, but I would appreciate your quickload capabilities to try and zero in on some OCW loads that are near the "sweetspots" for this particular rifle, and avoid wasting precious time and cartridges.
 
So, for this exercise the relevant numbers are:
 
Barrel length- 589mm
Case capacity - 28.4gn W748, or 26.0gn AR2206H
Powders - W748, AR2206H, AR2207
 
Projectiles
Hornady 40gn v-max, length 0.683"
Nosler shots 50gn SP, length 0.642"
Remington 50gn PSP, length 0.654"
 
Assuming I can get an accurate load for each projectile using each powder (which may or not be correct), would also appreciate some guidance as to which powder is likely to produce the best results in terms of pressure, velocity and grains of powder used.
 
Thanks,
 
Marcus

[gitano]

Marcus,
 
I'll get after the calculations later today, but for now I'll relate some experience I have had over the past three years using QuickLOAD (hereafter QL) and it's choice of powders.
 
When I first got QL I went through rather extensive ananlysis of its predicted choice of powders. My belief as a result of that ananlysis is that QL predicts pressure well, predicts timing nodes (sweetspots) well, and predicts charge/pressure combinations well. HOWEVER, for some reason as yet not understood by me, some powders produce smaller groups even though charges for both are on the "sweetspot". The most frequent example is IMR 3031 powder.
 
For MANY cartridges, QL predicts the lowest pressures and the highest velocities with IMR 3031. Even though it is true that 3031 priduces the higest velocities with the lowest pressures, in many of the cartridges I have tested it, it has NOT turned out to be the powder that shoots the smallest groups.
 
What I am finding is that the powder that "the community" seems to like for a particular cartridge is often the one that actually shoots the smallest groups regardless of what QL says about the relationship between pressure and velocity. So...
 
My recommendation regarding powder choices is that if you are using the powder that most folks "like" for a given cartridge, stick with it, regardless of what QL says about another powder that might give lower pressures and higher velocities. If the difference is great between what QL says might be the "best" and what everybody else is using, I will try them both. If the differences are small, I'll STILL try them both, but I'll expect the "favorite" to actually shoot better.
 
It annoys me that I can't figure this phenomenon out, but until I do, the powder that shoots the smallest groups "wins", regardless of the pressure/velocity relationship.
 
Paul
 
PS - Unless you tell me otherwise, I will use a seating depth of 0.149" (2/3rds of a caliber), and the QL default max chamber pressure ceiling of 45,991 PSI. Be advised that when I use the term "seating depth, I am referring to the amount of the BEARING SURFACE of the bullet that is below the case mouth. The TOTAL seating depth for boat-tailed bullets with therefore be GREATER. I'll provide overall lengths based on your bullet measurements, so you won't have to calculate actual seating depths.
 
Paul

[gitano]

Using your specs of a barrel length of 589mm, a case capacity of 28.4 grains of W748, the Hornady 40-grain V-Max with a measured length of 0.683", a pressure ceiling of 45,991 PSI, and a seating depth of 0.149" (2/3rds of a caliber for an overall length of 2.324", QL predicts the following:
 
Node 3 is the "fastest" node that can be reached below the 45,991 PSI pressure ceiling. The charge of W748 that produces the Node 3 exit time is 26.2 grains. The associated predicted pressure is 38,593 PSI, and the predicted muzzle velocity is 3307 f/s.
 
Stepping down in charge in 1% increments yields the following values:
 
1% - 26.05 grains - 37,865 PSI - 3286 f/s
2% - 25.89 grains - 37,105 PSI - 3263 f/s
3% - 25.69 grains - 36,178 PSI - 3235 f/s
 
The charge of AR2206H that produces the Node 3 exit time is 24.64 grains. The associated predicted pressure is 40,214 PSI, and the predicted muzzle velocity is 3206 f/s.
 
Stepping down in charge in 1% increments yields the following values:
 
1% - 24.46 grains - 39,331 PSI - 3183 f/s
2% - 24.28 grains - 38,469 PSI - 3159 f/s
3% - 24.10 grains - 37,673 PSI - 3137 f/s
 
QL doesn't have a Nosler "shots" bullet. It has a Nosler Ballistic Silvertip, a Nosler Ballistic Tip, and a Nosler "HP Solid Base". The part numbers are 51010, 39522, and 28467 respectively. If the Nosler "shots" you have is one of those part numbers, let me know. If it's not, then any 50-grain bullet that is of similar length and base type - boat-tail or flat base - will give a good enough approximation to get you close.
 
In the mean time, I'll provide QL's estimates for the 50-grain Remington PSP seated to a depth of 0.149" (based on your measurement of 0.654" vs QL's of 0.638", the overall length of the loaded cartridge is 2.355), the node 3 charge with W748 is 26.70 grains with an associated predicted max chamber pressure of 46,207 PSI and a predicted MV of 3270 f/s. This ESTIMATED charge is only 16 PSI over the pressure ceiling of 45,991 PSI that we selected. Since you will be working up to this charge as you look for signs of pressure, I don't think the 16 PSI is something to worry about, and I will go ahead and list the "down" points.
 
Here are the "down" points for W748:
 
1% - 26.50 grains - 45,053 PSI - 3244 f/s
2% - 26.35 grains - 44,210 PSI - 3224 f/s
3% - 26.15 grains - 43,112 PSI - 3198 f/s
 
Node 3 is a little on the "warm" side, so I'll drop down to node 4: The charge of W748 for node 4 is 25.35 grains with an associated max chamber pressure of 39,011 PSI and a MV of 3094 f/s.
 
Here are the "down" points for node 4:
 
1% - 25.17 grains - 38,148 PSI - 3071 f/s
2% - 25.00 grains - 37,354 PSI - 3049 f/s
3% - 24.83 grains - 36,575 PSI - 3027 f/s
 
I would recommend that you start with the node 4 charges. If you aren't satisfied with the results you get, and there are no signs of excessive pressure, you could move up to the hotter node 3 charges.
 
The charge of AR2206H that produces the Node 3 exit time has an associated predicted pressure of over 48,000 PSI. Therefore, we'll start at node 4 for AR2206H. The node 4 charge is 23.90 grains with an associated max chamber pressure of 40,573 PSI and a MV of 2987 f/s.
 
Stepping down in charge in 1% increments yields the following values:
 
1% - 23.70 grains - 39,608 PSI - 2962 f/s
2% - 23.53 grains - 38,806 PSI - 2942 f/s
3% - 23.38 grains - 38,112 PSI - 3924 f/s
 
You get about 100 f/s greater MV from the W748 at essentially the same max chamber pressure. Considering these pressures, I would certainly be giving the W748 'a go' even if the "community" liked AR2206H. I'd only try AR2206H if "everybody" was using it. THEN, I'd try both and select the one that shoots the straightest.
 
Since you've admitted ( in writing on a public forum that you are an "inexperienced" reloader, I feel compelled to offer the following "disclaimer":
 
The numbers I have provided above are ESTIMATES from a COMPUTER PROGRAM. Regardless of how good the program might be, I am human, and can make mistakes. THEREFORE, use all appropriate safety procedures - like start with lower charges and work up to the higher ones - when conducting your tests. Ultimately, the responsibility for your handloads is yours.
 
Best of luck, and the "payment" for this service is that you post your results here at THL so we all can see how things work out.
 
Paul

[branxhunter]

Paul,I will try and provide some answers and responses to your post below:
 
 
QL doesn't have a Nosler shots bullet. It has a Nosler Ballistic Silvertip, a Nosler Ballistic Tip, and a Nosler HP Solid Base. The part numbers are 51010, 39522, and 28467 respectively. If the Nosler shots you have is one of those part numbers, let me know. If it's not, then any 50-grain bullet that is of similar length and base type - boat-tail or flat base - will give a good enough approximation to get you close. The part number for the 50gn Nosler shots is 48515.
 
 
You get about 100 f/s greater MV from the W748 at essentially the same max chamber pressure. Considering these pressures, I would certainly be giving the W748 'a go' even if the community liked AR2206H. I'd only try AR2206H if everybody was using it. THEN, I'd try both and select the one that shoots the straightest. I think AR2207, and to a lesser extent W748, are the preferred powders in Australia. I persist with AR2206H because it shoots very well in my .222, however I don't want to be blinkered by this fact.
 
 
The numbers I have provided above are ESTIMATES from a COMPUTER PROGRAM. Regardless of how good the program might be, I am human, and can make mistakes. THEREFORE, use all appropriate safety procedures - like start with lower charges and work up to the higher ones - when conducting your tests. Ultimately, the responsibility for your handloads is yours. I regard these recommendations as a given. If there is one good thing to see in any article I have read about reloading it is the mantra "start low and work up". I actually have a small collection of cartridges I have loaded that I am not comfortable in shooting - I need to borrow or buy a bullet puller.
 
 
Best of luck, and the "payment" for this service is that you post your results here at THL so we all can see how things work out. I thought this was the unwritten law of THL!
 
Marcus

[branxhunter]

Is it safe to assume that max case length and trim length are the same as for rimless cases?

[gitano]

Is it safe to assume that max case length and trim length are the same as for rimless cases?

Yes.
 
Paul

[branxhunter]

We finally got a chance on the weekend to try out some of the loads developed up for the Martini using Pauls Quickload data. We got the rifle on paper at 30 metres then moved back to 65 metres (the longest distance we could get on the day due to wind direction and other constraints) and tried the lowest W748 powder charge weights for 40gn v-max and 50gn PSP loads.
 
Here are the photos:
[ATTACH]12220[/ATTACH]
 
[ATTACH]12221[/ATTACH]
 
[ATTACH]12222[/ATTACH]
 
[ATTACH]12223[/ATTACH]
 
 
My friend was happy with the results so far, and is itching to do some more load development and testing.
 
Marcus

[recoil junky]

The .222 Rimmed seems like it should be very close to  the .223 as far as ballistics go.

It's sure a neat looking round and the rifle is pretty cool as well. Looks like fun from this end.

RJ