Looking for .38 Special Reloading Data

[gitano]

... from those with first-hand experience reloading for this cartridge.

This is for my daughter's Taurus 5-shot revolver with 2" bbl. The intended use is for self-protection only. Don't need precision shooting. Don't need "special" bullets or loads other than those that are 'better' for penetration. Her instructions are that she shouldn't be shooting at ranges longer than 10 feet at the most, and the most likely - and better - scenario is point blank.

I purchased Sig Sauer factory ammo with 125-grain FMJs for her to practice with. At this point, (until I hear otherwise in this thread), I plan on loading 158-grain HPs or semi-wadcutters for her to keep loaded in the revolver, and "other" light ones for continued practice. I have an old "scissor" type, brass mold that throws relatively light weight, round-nosed bullets. I can't remember what they weigh with wheel weight alloy, but I'm "99.44%", (the purity of Ivory soap), certain that they are significantly less than 158.

Anticipating the possibility of having to penetrate a heavy coat and shirt, I'm thinking of doing some penetration testing through old denim. The 125-grainer at about 625 f/s produces only 110 ft-lb of energy out of a 2" bbl. The 158-grainer at about 600 f/s,produces about 125 ft-lb. Neither of those are particularly 'impressive' figures when it comes to penetration. However, the goal is simply "changing someone's plans" not penetrating steel plate, and five .357" holes in the chest, even if penetration is fairly shallow, should "change someone's plans". However, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a specific bullet unless I could believe the penetration would be AT LEAST 3" into the chest cavity. The point is; given the above criteria, if "you" have a suggestion on a specific bullet that would improve penetration through what might be a heavy coat, (like a Carhart), plus a heavy wool shirt, I'm 'all ears'.

Let's not have this thread go down the myriad "self defense" speculation rabbit trails. If you have personal, first-hand experience with a specific bullet and load, I'm all ears. On the other hand, speculation based on what some gunwriter (ptooey) or "expert" said, (I don't care HOW MANY of them say it), is not useful.

Thanks,
Paul

[recoil junky]

Dad loaded and shot 2.5 grains of Bullseye and 158 grain semi-wad cutters for years. I killed many a ground squirrel with that load from his 6 inch Security Six. Almost no report and like shooting a 22 as far as recoil. I can't see it being that much more in a 2" barreled girlie gun.

A feller (or girlie) should be able to get his (or her) mitts on a plethora of 158 grain cast    (or lighter)  bullets pretty easy. I think Rainier Ballistics makes some copper plated bullets in various weights for a "38" as well if a guy didn't want to hassle with cast. I like their bullets  a lot for the Glock 22 in 40 S&W.

RJ

[gitano]

A feller (or girlie) should be able to get his (or her) mitts on a plethora of 158 grain cast (or lighter) bullets pretty easy. I think Rainier Ballistics makes some copper plated bullets in various weights for a "38" as well if a guy didn't want to hassle with cast.

I'll be considering that, RJ. I use Oregon Trail's "Silver Bullets" in my .45-70. They shoot the best and don't (or didn't, I haven't bought any in a while) cost too much. Some Ranier's copper plated bullets should work fine, be fairly cheap, and locally available.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Once upon a time... 148gn HBWC with 2.8 gn bullseye was the staple diet of mine, cannot for the life of me remember any other loads! It prolly will not be of much use for self defense unless perp is wearing a light t shirt...

[gitano]

QL says that 2.8 g of Bullseye behind a 148-grain HBWC yields a muzzle velocity of 336 f/s and 37 ft-lb of energy. I wouldn't want to get shot with that, BUT, I wouldn't want to have to shoot anyone with it either unless it was out of a machine gun at close range. :) Sounds like a fun load to plink around with.

2.5 grains and a 158-grain bullet yields 337 f/s and 40 ft-lbs. Surprising to me that the two are so close in paper-whipped numbers.

Of course both of you were probably shooting pistols/revolvers with barrels significantly longer than 2".

Paul

[Brithunter]

Gitano.. check the bore dia and the throat diameter of the cylinder.

Shame your not closer as I still have about 1,000 158Gr hard cast semi wadcutters from the pistol days. Believe I binned most of my reloading data. The S&W 686 had a 4" barrel then later had a couple of Colts the Police Positive Duo Tone had a 3" barrel and was a handful due tot eh small grip. The Official Police had a 5" barrel and was chambered in 30-200. Stll have soem 200 Grn cast about. The Offical Police had a tight barrel and shot the 9mm 122 Grn Truncated Cone bullet suprebly.

They claimed that the 125 grn HP bullets had some of the best one stop shot results especially in the .357 mag.

Sorry that's about it.

[gitano]

Interesting comment about the 125. Fits with my general position on light for caliber bullets, but I am surprised to hear of it in a handgun in an anti-personnel use.

Paul

[Alboy]

Gitano

Shooting at 0-10 feet she needs practice drawing and firing, reloading; not shooting accuracy. Get enough snap cap rounds for practice of firing 5 rounds, dumping them and reloading with what ever loading system she will use. Speed loader, strip loader or loose rounds.

I carry home reloads at Max velocity I can produce with available components. Using as light a bullet as I can get along the jacketed hollow point  90*110*125 grain size.

Currently I use the 1993 LOADBOOKS USA Inc. THE COMPLETE RELOADING MAMUAL FOR THE .38 SPECIAL

If she can not maintain a supply of hand loads I recommend as light a bullet as possible in factory +P loads, not for practice but carry. Any same bullet load in normal pressures for practice.

My penetration tests were done about 45 years ago and I used soft pine 2x4's. All that data no longer is in my possession but I remember exceeding 4" (2+ boards)

[Alboy]

If she can handle the recoil go heavier, some of 148-158 loads were within 50 fps of the 125 but that little gun is really going to jump around.

[gitano]

Get enough snap cap rounds for practice of firing 5 rounds, dumping them and reloading with what ever loading system she will use. Speed loader, strip loader or loose rounds.

I don't envision any scenarios where reloading would be a viable option. Of course "we" can't anticipate all possible scenarios, but this firearm is to be carried in her purse when she goes out "on assignment" to places "at the end of the road", or at her bedside. Neither of those scenarios call for a "gunfight" - something requiring reloading. For the time being, I'm keeping things as simple as possible. "Carrying" isn't a matter to be taken lightly, and 'keeping it simple' is important at the outset.

I carry home reloads at Max velocity I can produce with available components. Using as light a bullet as I can get along the jacketed hollow point 90*110*125 grain size.

That's interesting, and flies in the face of all the internet "experts" I have read about.

Currently I use the 1993 LOADBOOKS USA Inc. THE COMPLETE RELOADING MAMUAL FOR THE .38 SPECIAL

Now that you mention it, I think I might HAVE that book! I had forgotten all about it.

My penetration tests were done about 45 years ago and I used soft pine 2x4's. All that data no longer is in my possession but I remember exceeding 4" (2+ boards)

I appreciate that data no longer exists, but can you recall at what range with what bullets?

I had her "rip off" five rounds as quickly as she could both double action and kocking, using the Sig Sauer 125s and she had no problem handling the gun in either case. It weighs 15 oz empty. I don't think heavier bullets will be too much of an issue. I'll have to shoot them and see what the difference is.

I think I am the only current member of THL that has actually shot someone that was breaking into their house. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I was 18 at the time, and it wasn't a "traumatic" experience. I think my youngest and I have similar temperaments "under pressure". A great deal of what I read about "home defense" involves a LOT of claims about "excitement" and "tension". In "real life" that's not what I did or experienced. Emotions are 'elevated', but in those circumstances I find a certain 'focus' that I rarely experience except "on the Hunt".

Thanks,
Paul

[recoil junky]

For speed loaders to absolutely work, the case needs a HEAVY crimp on a roundish nosed bullet and the cylinder needs to (or should) be chamfered. Snap caps are a great idea just to get her used to how the thing works.

RJ

[Alboy]

Sierra or Hornady on the bullets most likely, it was long ago and I have never been brand loyal. Criteria is and was 1. Cost of components 2. Largest possible meplat - thus hollow points, did not care if they mushroomed or not, pistol velocities are not dependable for that out of short barreled concealables. 3. Jacketed to fire them as hot as possible.

Distance was 5-10 feet, I was working on penetration. Even tried to make 148 grain wadcutters out of dead soft lead loaded with the hollow base skirt forward to get expansion. Shooting slow enough to keep leading down did not help with expansion or penetration, those moved about 750-850 fps.

One load for the 125 gives 1084 fps out of a 4" barrel.

Reload practice teaches a lot on gun handling besides quick second rounds. Cowards rarely travel single. On gunfights look over the multiple ones caught on camera on facebook alone. At the first shot most cowards (bad guys) take the shortest route out but I would not want to depend on that. I prefer strips that hold 5-6 rounds, slower than the load them all at once spring loaded round things with all kind of small parts to break and demand an inordinate amount of space to carry and a lot of practice for all possible problems like shooting a semi auto.

All of these problems is why I eventually went to big around because concealable demands short barrels that will only allow slow velocity. Same reason military went to the 45 pistol. Taurus makes a 5 shot 44 Special that my daughter took from me for her carry weapon. She is about 5'6" and 140 soaking wet and handles it comfortably following the same guide lines for loading.
Pictures are a 2" barrel 44 Special and a loading strip for 38 they also come in other sizes from Midway

[drinksgin (deceased)]

Interesting, I have .22LR, .38 SP and .45 acp.
For my wife, I have a DA .38 SP loaded with speer shot caps as she does not see.
For me, a 1917 S&W , one of the 1937 Brazil contract, supposed to use autorim or acp in half moon clips, however I found a semi soft plastic holder that takes 6 rounds and is about a speed loader.
I use 180 gr. HP,s in a moderate load, did one pig with it, worked nicely and has very moderate recoil, I do not believe a woman would have a problem using it.
My sister, at 5' -1" handles it ok.

[gitano]

My daughter is already 'handling' the gun just fine. No fear or flinch. She can hit a plastic water bottle at 10' 3 out of 5 shots shooting as fast as she can pull the trigger. Same 3 out of 5 for kocking the hammer. That's good enough "accuracy". As of Sunday she had shot a total of 30 rounds. I'm quite confident she could back me up if I needed it.

I've been shot with .22 RF once through left deltoid at pretty close range; <10 ft. .22 RFs don't impress me sufficiently to rely on them for personal protection. That said, someone shot in the face or chest multiple times with even a .22 RF will change their "plans". That's the goal. There's no score. There are no points for "bullseyes".

I've counted, and I've been in A LOT of "street" fights. (I'd say how many but I wouldn't be believed.) In my personal experience, whenever there are multiple aggressors, there is always a "leader". Bloody the leader and the rest turn tail and run away. ALWAYS. The only time this isn't true is in MILITARY COMBAT. I am not concerned about multiple aggressors with respect to my daughter's use of this firearm. My primary concern is someone breaking into her apt at night. She can lock herself in her bedroom, call 911 on speed-dial, and "guard the door". If the burglar remains in the house after she lets him know the house is occupied, then he is there to do her harm. He will HAVE to come through the door. If he does, she shoots him. In my entire life in Alaska I have never heard of even ONE example of two assailants in a night-time break-in. Rapists don't travel in "packs" except in major metropolitan areas, and even then it's rare. Multiple assailants, gun fights, reloading, etc... just aren't in the mix. If I was worried about the need for more than 5 shots, I'd have bought her a semi-auto pistol.

I think my daughter could probably handle a .44 special without a problem, but the .44 Special version was noticeably bigger. I looked at .38 ACPs, and a friend of mine has one for his carry gun. I just feel the cartridge is too wimpy for a CC gun. Others disagree.

Of course reliability is an issue, and that is why I got her a revolver instead of a pistol. The fact is, there is SO much MORE going on in a late-night break-in than the gun or its function. Guns work. Keeping the "gun stuff" as simple as can possibly be means that a person doesn't have to think about the gun. That's the way I want it. No thinking about reloading. No thinking about one-hand or two-hand holds. No thinking about "accuracy". NO THINKING ABOUT THE GUN is my approach to training my daughter about protecting herself from assailants. Call the cops. Find a place that she can "defend" - her locked bedroom. Shoot the person that enters the room after you tell them to leave. It's simple. It works. I know.

Paul

PS - When I carry, and that's pretty rare, I pick one of four handguns depending on what 'environment' I am headed into that I feel I need to be armed. Almost on a daily basis I walk my dog around my property. I have been charged by cow moose on three occasions as a result of moose not liking dogs. I carry a "Thunderer" revolver in .45 Colt most of the time. Occasionally I'll carry my Ruger GP101 in .357 Mag. I like the .45 better. When I'm headed into the woods on a stroll with my family, I put my .44 Mag Redhawk on my hip. When I head into "town" the 1911 gets concealed in an under-the-arm holster. It is invisible. I have pistols and revolvers "all over" my house. Those include above mentioned ones plus my wife's S&W Airweight in .38 Special, a little semi-auto in .25 ACP, a HighPoint in .45 ACP, and Brazilian 1911 knock-off. I also keep a double barreled shotgun by the front door, and Joseph Rocheleau (AKA Jay Edwards) left his "self-defense" pump 12 gauge with me when he returned to Montana, and that piece stays by the "back" door. So...

I have given more than casual thought to protecting my home, and I have taken the time to instruct my family on what to do to protect themselves should I not be home. I am confident both in my approach and preparation, and their understanding and ability to follow my instructions for protecting themselves.

Paul

[j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)]

Bit too much bullseye and you did get light for calibre projectile as it would leave the hollow base behind...