Smoke pole initiation

[JaDub]

Well,   I finally got the  chance to light off the T/C .54 cal Hawken last weekend.  Never shot a BP before so I was looking forward to all the smoke and mystery.  Hunterbug and I had the chance to hit the high country for a bit of shooting and the T/C came along as part of the arsenal.  I first loaded up what RJ would call a `sister load` and took aim at a target about 25 yards away and ......................    Blam !   Cough, cough.............  cough, whew !!
 
    " That was pretty kool"  !!!   8-))    
 
            Better load up quick to see if the second shot was as much fun as the first............    BLAAAM  !     Yep !!    Hey, HB............   ya wanna try it ??
 
    SHUUUUEEERRRRR !        Blaaaammm !   " Koool !! "     Can I do it again ????
 
  We were using `round ball` starting with 70 grns of FF, and gradually got up to 90 grns.  I recon we lit off  an even dozen or so charges and realized muzzel loader season might be the ticket for next year.  We also came to the conclusion that keeping the barrel clean aided greatly in the reloading process.     (.......... push harder HB ! )  8-)   Hopefully he will post a bit of video.......
 
  Cheers,  JaDub

[gitano]

It's difficult to explain, but I simply can't keep the grin off of my face when shooting mine. It's just too much fun.

There are LOTS of things said/written about how to lessen the effort of loading after the first shot fouls the barrel. I am WAY too much of a novice to offer any advice or suggestions there. I do read however that sabots help a lot. While I love sabots for centerfires, I'm not sure I want to use them in my MLs. I haven't decided on that yet. I AM using ML sabots in the H&R Model 58 with the .500 S&W barrel on it. Only shot three so far, but I am very encouraged with what those three suggest.

Anyway, keep us posted on your progress to ML elk and how you 'get there'.

Paul

[JaDub]

Well, in defense of stupidity.............
 
Book says to clean after each shot......... seems a bit excessive. However probably for best accuracy that IS the way to go. We really didn`t notice the required increase in effort to `ramming things home` until the sixth shot or so. Kinda figured we were `cub bears` and had to just figure out the right angle and just which side of the mouth the tongue belonged whilst pushing. I`m guessing I`ll start a quick cleaning after the third round or so.
 
I bought the T/C a year ago and just hadn`t gotten around to firing it. I bought a `complete package ` from previous owner so I also got, along with the gun, couple hundred rounds of lead balls and 25 `mini-balls` for hunting. Sabots are not legal to use here in Colorado . ???? Previous owner took several Elk using a 425 grn hollow point-hollow base lead bullet....... manufactured by Buffalo Bullet Co in Whittier, Calif. They come pre-lubed.
Book calls for the following loads:
 
.54 cal round ball, .530", 230gr ball
60 grn FFG MV 1,263 M. Energy 815 ft lbs.
70 " "" " 1,469 1,102
80 1,654 1,397
90 1,761 1,584
 
100 1,855 1,758
110 1,931 1,905
120 1,981 2,009 recommended max
 
54 cal Maxi-Ball 430 grn
 
90 grn FFG MV 1,263 M Energy 1,523 ft lbs.
100 1,345 1,728
110 1,428 1,948
 
 
120 1,499 2,146
 
JaDub

[JaDub]

Forgot to mention what a pain in the  arse it was to clean. Along with the gun I got a bottle of ` black powder cleaning gel`. This was really goopy and darn near impossible to clean out of the barrel................ is it clean yet ??? :undecided:
 
Any recommendations from you BP guys out there ?? What do you use.....is there a better way ?? I don`t have a large tub for `hot tanking` as suggested in the instructions. What is your favorite recipie for cleaning?
 
Thanks, JaDub

[LvrLover]

Congrats on the .54. Don't ever sell it. Some idiots out there think .54's are not worth making anymore. I cast my own "maxie" style bullets. I think they are around that 430gn/1oz size. They cronied at 1350fps with a 120grain charge of 3f. I use 3f just because I shoot bp pistol too and then only use one powder. I have yet to recover a bullet in a deer even smashing through bone. When you shoot the maxies with a heavy charge you MUST run a wet(spit) patch between loads to remove the fowling or you will have a wonderful time trying to smack that thing down the bore. I had to use a rock as a hammer once to get the bullet seated. As far as bullet lube goes, I use anything from Crisco to lard and have had no problems.
 
Cleaning when you are done is easy. No need for all the commercial glop. I take an old ice cream bucket and boil a kettle full of water. Take the barrel and lock off the stock, put the lock in the bucket and the nipple end of the barrel in the bucket. First pour cold water in the barrel letting it run through the nipple( or nipple hole if you removed the nipple.) Then take a patch and run it down the bore while it is still in the bucket. Pump it up and down and you will start to draw water like a hand pump. Scrub the lock good with a small brush. now dump that water and do it again. This time with boiling water and some liquid soap. Be careful the metal gets hot! Scrub everything good and then rinse with more boiling water. Wipe it dry and let it set a few minutes so any water evaporates, then oil it. Put choke tube lube or something similar on the nipple threads when you reassemble. I am sure others do it different, but it works for me.

[CAfrica]

Cleaning when you are done is easy. No need for all the commercial glop. I take an old ice cream bucket and boil a kettle full of water. Take the barrel and lock off the stock, put the lock in the bucket and the nipple end of the barrel in the bucket. First pour cold water in the barrel letting it run through the nipple( or nipple hole if you removed the nipple.) Then take a patch and run it down the bore while it is still in the bucket. Pump it up and down and you will start to draw water like a hand pump. Scrub the lock good with a small brush. now dump that water and do it again. This time with boiling water and some liquid soap. Be careful the metal gets hot! Scrub everything good and then rinse with more boiling water. Wipe it dry and let it set a few minutes so any water evaporates, then oil it. Put choke tube lube or something similar on the nipple threads when you reassemble. I am sure others do it different, but it works for me.

 
I must say on this side of the Atlantic, we ascribe different meanings to some words.  I can assure you that that description DOES NOT FIT THE MEANING OF EASY!!!!!!:cry:
 
Daaaangggg,  I see an opportunity here for some enterprising business man to build a "gun washer" (like a dishwasher, just shaped to handle looong gun barrels).
 
I'm sorry but all the smoke (even without mirrors) hasn't convinced me yet and that performance will put me off completely.  And please note that I actually LIKE cleaning my guns.  In the off season, I often haul them out on a Sunday, just to fondle, polish and clean.
 
Now where is the picture of that target with the large holes in it?  That at least I can appreciate.
 
C

[recoil junky]

Cleaning made easy

1. remove barrel form stock (easy as pie with the T/C Hawken)
2. remove nipple
3. inset barrel breech end in a pan/bucket of boiling water (about 1/2 gallon no soap!!)
4. with cleaning jag on ramrod and a good tight patch start pumping water in and out of the barrel until it's so hot you can't hold it, then get a glove and give 'er a few more strokes.
5. let the barrel air dry (about 30 minutes) then wipe the inside and out down with some Hoppes #9 Black powder solvent.

I used Hoppes #9 Black powder solvent for patch lube. Made it easier to load and you didn't have to clean near as often.

There used to be things called "poly patches" for round balls. I liked them a lot but I haven't seen them in quite a while.

RJ

[JaDub]

Great suggestions all.   Any body like a FREE bottle of cleaning GEL  ??????   8-)

[Alboy]

Depending on your range the bottle of gel can make a pretty spectacular splatter as a target.
 
As for lube on round ball patches everything from spit on has worked for me. One old timer liked even amounts of beeswax and peanut oil. Here is the thread with recipe.
 
http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5398&highlight=bullet+lube
 
Currently I am using precut patches with bore butter that I can carry in a small tin in my shooting pouch, they double as a temporary wipe if I feel the need while hunting,

[JaDub]

Ah..........   nothing like a bit of Bore Butter for a quick wipe in the field.  8-))
 
  Thanks for all the suggestions and also the link.
 
  Cheers,  JaDub

[gitano]

Cafrica,

I felt pretty much the same way you do. That "small" amount of cleaning seemed like A LOT of cleaning to me. Still does. HOWEVER, I cannot explain it, but when you shoot one of these 'things' - and for me, especially flintlocks - you simply can't wipe the grin from your face. It's involuntary.

The cleanup remains a bit of a deterrent to shooting for me. Meaning, I don't just 'casually' pick up my muzzle-loaders and shoot them. When I do shoot them, I make sure I have allocated time to clean up. Leaving a BP firearm uncleaned is precisely why you see the grossly pitted antique firearms. One really MUST clean after EVERY shooting session. If you don't, the BP residue WILL EAT your barrel and any other metal it gets on.

I'm not suggesting you should run right out and get a ML. What I am suggesting is that you find someone with one and 'give it a go'. Either you will "cleave to it", or you won't.

Nothing will replace the joy of a precise rifle for me, but shooting MLs and especially flintlocks, is like a whole different world of shooting. About the only similarity is that both use bullets and gunpowder.

By the way... After you clean your gun, you have to clean up the stuff you used to clean up the gun!

Paul

[CAfrica]

Years ago, a fiend of mine got into this BP thing big time. His gun was so long, I suggested he gets some of those roof racks for fishing rods for transporting the thing on his car as it wouldn't fit inside!!! (these guys take their sport seriously, he didn't think it was funny).
 
We went on a hunt together and he took the smokepole along for some entertainment. That evening while we were sitting around the fire, cooking our evening meal, he hauled out the stuff and started cleaning the thing. I would say his methods matched closely those described above.
 
He also had a cap & ball revolver and I must say I really enjoyed firing that old banger. But right there during that cleaning procedure, I decided that I would steer away from the old smoke poles.
 
I do understand the fascination, I'm worried that if I were to get involved, it might consume a huge amount of my time (I think if you want to become good at it, you need to spend enough time to learn the quirks of your guns). So right now I keep telling myself that I don't want to get involved because of the amount of work involved in cleaning the guns, but this excuse is sounding lamer and lamer by the day:toilet:!
 
Sigh, BP guns are hard work, stay away..... BP guns........
 
C

[gitano]

To actually see someone go through the cleaning exercise was an excellent experience. In my opinion, clean-up is the single greatest deterrent to getting involved with muzzleloaders. BP cartridge arms are much easier to clean after firing. The only real issue with MLs is the 'blind' barrel. It substantially complicates the process.

There are 'alternatives' to BP for MLs, but for some reason I can't bring myself to use them. It just seems antithetical. Chief among the many and varied reasons people choose to hunt with MLs is the fact that there are special "primitive weapon" seasons and areas. That translates to "access", and in today's hunting world, access is almost everything. As a consequence, people look for ways to 'have their cake and eat it too'. (In other words, "I want the extra access, but I don't want the extra work.") One of those ways is the use of black powder substitutes. The big 'draw' of BP substitutes is that they are supposed to have all the "good" characteristics about black powder and none of the bad. As usual, "one size fits all" means one size fits no one. They are however getting "better" at imitating BP while "eliminating" clean-up.

But extra clean-up doesn't matter to me. Not because I am in ANY way a "purist" or even a "traditionalist". I don't shoot MLs ONLY because I want extra access. Nonetheless, I LIKE them, and to tell the truth, I can't really explain why. I shouldn't like them -  they aren't precise in comparison to over-the-counter modern rifles, they are severely restricted in effective range compared to modern rifles, and powder and projectiles are much more difficult to come by. (Were it not for the access issue, "nobody" would be hunting with MLs.) However, since access isn't an issue for me, once I chose to "do it", my mind was 'right' with the extra effort required for clean-up. Therefore, I prefer the 'real thing'. Just seems 'right'. Especially with flintlocks.

I don't have a 'gripe' with modern muzzleloaders. I do not however believe that "modern" inline MLs with scopes, substitute BP, and sabots, should be allowed in "primitive weapon" special access regulations. The ONLY characteristic of such a weapon that is ANY less 'efficient' than a modern center-fire rifle is reduced effective range. And in fact, 150 yards is fully acceptable these days even with the fascist ethics police (ptooey), and 150 yds is not "short range".

I'm not trying to convince anyone to 'pick up' muzzleloading firearms. The truth be told, it is highly unlikely that I would be shooting them if Jay Edwards hadn't given me the parts to build my own. At that point I felt obligated to give them a 'fair shake'. You know me... I can't resist a 'pretty face'.

Paul

[recoil junky]

Like gitano my sentiments lean towards the "purist" end of muzzleloading. The exception being the use of BP substitutes. They work very well in cap-n-ball revolvers. I still use only FFg real black powder in my Kaintucky Rifle. Other than that I'm all for them thar modern percussion caps!!

Scoped inline muzzleloaders using 209 primers, powder pellets and sabots are not IMO worthy of the names muzzleloader, smokepole, thunderstick, or front stuffer.

The following is from the Colorado Department of Wildlife "Methods of Take" regulations on muzzleloaders

"Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall be
forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose.  The minimum caliber for elk and
moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty
(.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. *
All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use
bullets of at least 210 grains in weight.*

a. During the muzzle-loading firearms seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and
moose only lawful muzzle-loaders and smoothbore muskets may be used by
muzzle-loading license holders.

b. During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and
moose the following additional restrictions apply:

1. Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and
smokeless powder are prohibited.

2. Projectiles:  Sabots are prohibited.  For the purposes of this regulation
cloth patches are not sabots.

3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle.  Firearms which can be
loaded from the breech are prohibited. (DUHH)

4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket  with any sighting
device other than open or “iron” sights is prohibited."

* Patched pure lead round balls, Miniballs and Maxiballs are all legal here in Colorado

At least they got part of it right.

RJ

[gitano]

More and more states are starting to constrain the method and means for "special" seasons and areas. The ones listed above - no sabots, no "modern" sights, no "pelletized" powder (but BP substitutes still allowed) - are the common restrictions.

The issue isn't "traditional" or "purity"... It's 100% about 'efficiency'. The more "efficient" a weapon is, the more animals will be taken in a given period of time. By restricting the efficiency of the weapon used, more people can hunt for longer seasons and not kill more animals. This situation increases OPPORTUNITY without increasing TAKE. The same concept applies to restricted fishing rules such as "no live bait" and "flies only" regulations.

Access is necessary, opportunity is desired. Primitive Weapon hunts usually provide both.

Paul